DH being horrible to DS or have I lost perspective?

[LostNorthener]

DS is nearly 5. He's on waiting lists for ASD and ADHD due to some pretty challenging stuff v early on - verbal delay, can't follow any sort of instruction, can be very aggressive, has tics. Nursery recommended the referrals. He's down brilliantly at nursery and almost all aggression and meltdowns had disappeared or at least really reduced. He loved the routine and I've made big progress at home too. Nursery and the local authority confident that he's ready to start mainstream school in Sep.

Since nursery is closed now for summer his behaviour has plummeted. We are back to throwing things, slamming doors, lots of tears and hurting himself over tiny things. In 10 days we have gone back 6 months!

DH is in-between jobs and taking a break over summer so has DS full time and it's not going well.

This morning DS threw a glass on the floor because he couldn't find a toy.

DH dragged him into the sitting room. Started shouting. DS then went crazy throwing books off shelves, throwing shoes, a vase got smashed. I was just busy keeping younger DD safe. DH shouting top of his voice "you stop it" physically retaining him. DS kept saying "I want mummy for cuddle" and DH shouting "I bet you want your mother but you've got me and you're not getting a bike, or seeing your mum, until you pick up all this stuff and behave yourself" DH was very loud in the shouting even when DS was just sitting still crying. The throwing lasted 5 mins but the shouting lasted much longer. At one point DS was shouting "leave me alone" and DH was shouting "you leave me alone" at each other over and over.

I ended up going in the room and DH shouted at me "DS is not allowed to see you until he's picked up everything he is a horrible boy" DS crying on sofa. I say "how about we pick things up together DS" DS nods and we tidy-up the whole house - DS doing it with me helping him. DH storms out saying I'm so fuxking soft etc

DH has now left house

Do I sound too soft?
Or do people think actually I should have stepped in much sooner
If me and DH split (we have some other issues) wouldn't I be causing more harm to my son as God knows what DH would do if i wasn't there
DS always wants a cuddle after a meltdown- DH says I'm rewarding him. I think I'm comforting him
Does my DH sound horrible or just he has his boundaries as he would say.

I don't know if this is parenting or AIBU or relationships but putting here. Any thoughts welcome as I feel totally lost here.

If you want to leave then leave.

Even if he gets shared custody (I can’t even see him wanting that) then at least your DS will have a safe space for half of the time.

At the minute he is unhappy in his home and that’s not fair.

DH will not go on parenting course or read an article about it. He just won't. I have pointed this out but he says he doesn't need so called experts telling him how to be a dad

He's an absolute tool. I was already an experienced parent when I had my ASD/ADHD son. I had no idea whatsoever how to parent a neurodivergent child. I have taken every single course thrown at me and become a better parent as a result. Our house is calm and happy. I also got rid of a twat husband. You've got a long road ahead and if he refuses to sing from the same hymn sheet, that would be it for me.

TheFormidableMrsC

agree 100000%

op this is all very new and upsetting
your child is so young too x

the best thing you can do right now is read up on every parenting forum around asd and your sons presentation
took me a long long time to wrap my head around it

start with ‘parenting mental health’ and posters can and will can guide you , you can post anonymously too

knowledge is power and getting your own understanding is the most powerful thing you can do right now

Can you discuss with dh a timetable/ routine that will help ds deal with being at home. You need to work together. He may feel you're bring a bit wet, on the other hand shouting isn't going to solve the problem either.

I hope you don't have children. You don't scream "you leave me alone" at a 4 year old or tell them they are a horrible little boy, whether they're ND or NT unless you're a fucking arsehole.

What an utterly shit comment. Reported.

I have autism DX in childhood. I had very challenging behaviour as a little kid, up until 11/12. Your DH was unreasonable in his behavior but you do need to work on the throwing and breaking things, because, if you are in a meltdown and you go over the edge, you need someone to bring you back. As a little kid being out of control is terrifying. You don't think you will ever calm down. Shouting adds to the distress big time, but being left to break stuff is no good either. My DPs used to carry me to the understairs cubby, which had big cushions on the floor and they would stay with me, talking calmly until my control came back. I am high functioning, but still struggle a lot. Labour was vvv. difficult and DH had to help me regain control.

If your DS threw a glass on the floor it's not unreasonable of your DH to tell him to pick it up and not let him have any other toys until he picked up that glass. It's very dangerous and your younger children could have cut themselves on the glass. Your DH sounds like he lost it with DS's bad behaviour. When he was told off he responded by throwing a full tantrum and throwing more things around. I wouldn't be cuddling a child, at that moment, that was behaving like that. Your DC sounds like he doesn't like a change of routine. Your DH needs to stop shouting at DS but you should not be rewarding such poor behaviour.

Just had a chat with DH. He says he wanted to draw a line in the sand and shout loud enough that DS would have no choice but to do as he asked. He said I am the boss and if we can't get him to pick up the mess he's made we don't stand a hope

I argued that i also was insisting he tidy up but calm.

DH said my calm and nice nice approach isn't working

He says all kids get shouted at sometimes when the behaviour is really bad and it's madness that I have a problem with that.

I said to him shouting wasn't working and he said "yeah, you're right about that and I don't know what to fuxkunh do. All kids should be capable of picking up something off the floor if their dad is shouting at them"

I've just said to him "go find a ND specialist who thinks shouting in a young kids face is a good idea"

Really the biggest issue is communication between the two of us. We don't feel like a partnership at all. He thinks I'm weak. I think he's ineffective and bullying. He always says "if we don't stamp it out now think what it will be like when's he's 14" - like I don't understand the seriousness but shouting at him until he's 14 isn't going to help.

I feel totally done in. He's just sitting there depressed now. Refusing to help at bedtime. Playing games. I just wish he'd bugger off again

He's going at it like a bull in a china shop, he needs to try to calm down.

Having said that, whilst it's "angry speak', he's right.

My ds has severe ADHD. My friend's D's has ADHD and (I think) autism, or Asperger's, I'm not 100% sure.

From a very young age, I've been almost militant with routine, rules, boundaries...out of necessity. It's been so hard, and out of my comfort zone, but with professional guidance I kept going. DS is now mid teens, and it's really hard, but thank god we put the leg work in back then. To "the norm" it can look too strict. But actually, I now know I would have been doing my son a great disservice if I hadn't been as strict all those years ago. It's a battle but a worthy one. He has far better social skills, coping mechanisms, resilience and self regulation for it. His consultant who basically told me what to do, is a hero.

In contrast, my friend believes only in gentle parenting. She doesn't like discipline, wants to talk everything out with cuddles and smiles, nothing is his fault, it's all the fault of ADHD, like a get out of jail free card. Her DS is 3yrs younger, and she's had to give up work. He won't go to school. Attacks his sibling. Her mother has to attend every single morning just to get him dressed and ready for the day. He has downward spiralled dramatically. She still wants to cuddle him out of every meltdown. He can't possibly have an ounce of bad behaviour in him, it's all out of his control. She's on the verge of a breakdown.

I think your DH is lacking in education around the issue, but he's got the right underlying boundaries. I think you are too soft, sorry. It's just my opinion, but you sound so much like my friend, who is all about "poor DS" and boy, has she made things worse, for him and her.

Somewhere between you and DH is a better middle ground.

I have a child with autism. If your dh won’t even read stuff about autism / sen / adhd this is going to get worse and worse.

Honestly - ring women’s aid, get yourself and your kids out of there. He’s abusive and I would also be wary that if you’re working full time and he is the “stay at home parent” he could actually - if spiteful - try to claim full custody as the primary carer. You would be better (although I appreciate this sounds like madness) to jack your job in, claim benefits and get relocated through refuge / women’s aid until you can speak to him sensibly and agree to sell the house. I’m speaking from experience, sadly.

OP - I've only read your posts, but just wanted to say how your approach is what was recommended to me on the Autism parenting course I was sent on when my son was diagnosed.

Trying to parent alongside someone who won't read articles, research or even accept the ND child they have must be incredibly challenging.

A child in meltdown isn't having one by choice, my son's educational psychologist said to call them panic attacks. The child is literally in fight or flight mode, and can't control their reactions.

Their system is totally overloaded, and asking for a cuddle is them asking for help to calm their system. You're not spoiling your child or rewarding them with a hug, it is a most basic need.

You know all this already...but, I wanted to send you this message of support and let you know your instincts are right.

@LostNorthener you can't yell the neurodivergence out of a child. Nor can you have healthy relationships with a parent that can't control their temper, ND OR NT.
Hard line in the sand for me would be

Get advice on how to parent without losing your rag and we can work on things

Or

Bye bye pal.

@TwinsPlusAnotherOne thank you for sharing that. V helpful.

Surely it's possible to be loving and have boundaries. I made DS tidy up the mess today. He wasn't going to play or have a snack until every thrown toy was picked up. But I never shouted. And I encouraged him. I would never say "hey DS go watch telly while I tidy up your mess". The boundary was that he had to tidy up but I was quiet and positive in getting there. Ultimately he tidied up for me, and got worse and more resistant to DH

I do take maybe I cuddle him too much. I'm so worried about the safety of his younger sister. I am getting so much wrong and I find routine so hard...I'm so inconsistent as a person...but I'm trying. And I'll keep trying and reading and trying to get it better

I want DS to flourish and I know that's about making him accountable not making excuses. But making him fearful into going to make a flourishing adult surely?

My DS was never fearful of me. And that's the bit you need to take down several levels in DH.

Of course you can still have boundaries and be loving, the two aren't mutually exclusive...but again that's what my friend thinks. My boundaries and her lack of, mean she loves her son more.

With my DS you could tell what was uncontrollable, and what was not. To use one of your examples, he wouldn't be able to stop his shouting outbursts, but he can control picking up a glass and throwing it at someone, and it would be wrong of me to combine the two and call it an uncontrollable meltdown.

I think your practical approach is far better, but your DH has a better concept of what is and isn't acceptable. I think your DH was trying to deal with stage 2, the accountability, before DS had finished stage 1, the action, which was always headed for disaster.

He doesn't sound receptive to a parenting course. But he will be receptive if he sees something working. He's not getting a kick out of shouting at his own child. He's doing it out of sheer frustration and desperation of not knowing how to stop the behaviour. Speak to your consultant. Ask what you should do in this situation. DH is more likely to be on board with medical advice because that's not suggesting he's incapable of parenting.

@LostNorthener I have twin boys who are almost 8, one of them almost certainly has ADHD (still awaiting diagnosis) and yesterday he had his second meltdown of the holidays DP has no understanding/ patience and just shouts until he gets his way, it really upsets me. From the research I've done I think DP probably has ADHD too and just completely lacks empathy - honestly I have looked into leaving him over this quite frequently but think it would be worse in the long run for DTS1, DP couldn't cope having him one on one. Sorry, I know that's no help to you for now but I completely get what you're going through

You have to keep very calm even when they are throwing and breaking things. It’s hard but shouting and raging is throwing petrol onto the fire.

TwinsPlusAnotherOne

yes and no

I agree that boundaries are critical
and I often question myself
and as I’m raising two boys alone I know it’s critical

but your friend is really struggling and as most school refusers have a PDA profile … I wouldn’t be too hasty to blame her actually

it’s fuxking tricky

Make it like nursery, a chart on the wall as to what you're doing and talk it though with your husband and children. Make it clear that no one is allowed to shout at anyone else. I agree with your husband, property cannot be destroyed.

No-one's needs are greater that anyone else's. you don't suddenly become more important if you have special needs.

An adult man dragged a 4 year old while shouting at loudly as he could, calling him a horrible child and preventing him from seeing you. He's not even sorry!! He's not willing to visit house own role or parental development, has he thought that regardless of ND screaming, shouting, dragging and bullying a child isn't going to result in a peaceful harmonious household? Does he understand even the basic principle of learned behaviour? I'm not even going to go into the ND denial it's just the icing on the cake.
None of this is acceptable.
You already pay for everything and I hate to say it OP but he won't be interested in having contact with your beautiful boy. You say he's horrible to you too.
You just need to leave.

So frustrated this morning!

We had a discussion last night. Thought we agreed DS needed consistency and predictability. DS is currently watching telly with DH. DS asked DH what they are going to do today and DH said "dunno". What??

I have to go to work. I pay for everything. I'm going to try and get him into a holiday camp but feels v unlikely now. Why won't DH plan something? I said to him last night that he should book something or find a new skate park (DS loves skate parks) and instead DH just gamed until midnight. I could find it myself and give them a daily routine and activities to follow but the problem in our relationship is that I do everything and DH always tells me "you don't have to, don't do stuff and then complain, I'll do it" and yet he doesn't.

Life wpild be so much easier if I just manged all this myself. I earn enough for childcare. I know some good local options. But instead I've got a ND boy on the sofa all day watching YouTube and then being shouted at when he inevitably has a meltdown

So it’s becoming clear that your husband is demand avoidant just like your son and he can’t react sensibly to your sons demand for control or general demands placed on him as a parent.

I have two perspectives, one as ND child with ND parents who didn’t do what was needed to manage their own needs meaning they were volatile and emotionally abusive. I’m now the mum to an almost 4 year old autistic with ADHD.

When my parents reacted like your husband it inflamed the situation and left me feeling depressed and angry. It escalated to the point where I attempted suicide at 14 in an attempt to escape the hell I was living through. If you stay with your husband it is likely that your son will experience long term emotional harm and will need lots of therapy and will need to put in a lot of effort to reprogram his brain to overcome the unhealthy coping mechanisms his father has taught him.

We follow a gentle parenting approach and it works. In the four years we’ve only had a handful of huge displays of emotion as our daughters needs are being met. If we were in yesterdays situation we’d have removed the family from the area with the broken glass, explained we need help from our LO to clear it up, when she tried to get us to do it so she could avoid the demand we’d reiterate she needed to do it but it could be done later. After a few hours when things had calmed down and she’d decided on her own terms she’d pick up the glass, wed go and help and explain how proud we were of her. After lots of hugs we’d move on and it wouldn’t be mentioned again.

Whether or not your "D"H has ND issues of his own, this isn't a communication problem, he's a bully that won't accept that there are other ways to do things than the way he is doing them. Your dynamic sounds exactly the same as ours was, and despite my husband saying he would try not to get angry, it lasted a matter of days.

My child is noticeably happier and more relaxed - and therefore much easier to parent - now his dad doesn't live with us. Even friends and school have noticed and commented on it, without me saying anything.

I completely get that you're worried about child arrangements if you split, I was terrified...but the reality is that your husband is unlikely to want your DS as much as you fear he will, he can't be bothered to do anything with him now, with you organising it all, so I really can't see him turning into superdad...my ex did, for all of five minutes, and even DS called it out (to me) and said why was daddy so nice that day? Similarly, they spend days watching youtube or gaming :(

Short term, separating and divorcing won't be easy...but long term I cannot tell you how much easier it is without all of that cr@p everyday. You are already doing 99% of the parenting by the sound of it, so actually your life will get easier when you don't have to spend time and energy managing your husband's relationship with his kids. It's scary, but just jump...there is a better life out there waiting for you and the DC I promise.