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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Sister - deliberate behaviour or unintentional?

89 replies

yogaoga · 14/04/2023 21:39

Sticky situation with sibling and can’t see the wood for the trees here so appreciate some clarity

The routine goes, she is unkind in some way. Will list examples as think it’s relevant and should avoid drip feeding

  • Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring)
  • Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him
  • Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk
  • Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable
  • Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her
  • Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions.

There are many, many more examples similar to this and I know it’s fundamentally wrong and foul treatment. It doesn’t stop there though. One of the above will happen, I will quietly take a break from her without announcing it, then she will come running back after a few days or sometimes weeks to say something along the lines of

‘I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids’

It has nearly come between me and my parents over the years, they can see the situation more clearly now but seem reluctant to confront it because they’re worried she will stop them seeing their grandkids. DM says she thinks she has low self esteem so calling it out will just make her hate herself even more, but has also expressed it’s not reasonable to expect me to continue to be the bigger person. Have a brother on the scene but he lives overseas

So, my original question: I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing? Maybe it’s a mental illness? DH thinks it’s not and that she is just proving herself to not be very nice. Also sought opinion from trusted friend, as well as relative of DHs who both think to just step well away.

What do you think?

OP posts:
Restinggoddess · 14/04/2023 21:50

She behaves badly towards you and other family members and then comes running when she realises she has over stepped the mark.

Time to lay some clear boundaries- at the moment there is no consequence to her behaviour, you are stuck in a cycle where she behaves like a toddler then says something and resets to be able to behave badly again - why do you keep
jer in your life?
she knows parents won’t say anything- her children are collateral - don’t put up with this ( if she wasn’t your sister would you hang out with her??)

Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 21:52

Restinggoddess · 14/04/2023 21:50

She behaves badly towards you and other family members and then comes running when she realises she has over stepped the mark.

Time to lay some clear boundaries- at the moment there is no consequence to her behaviour, you are stuck in a cycle where she behaves like a toddler then says something and resets to be able to behave badly again - why do you keep
jer in your life?
she knows parents won’t say anything- her children are collateral - don’t put up with this ( if she wasn’t your sister would you hang out with her??)

Thank you! No I definitely wouldn’t, I hate to say it

I’m not sure if she knows she has overstepped the mark? When I gently point out she has been rude/unkind she will say she ‘doesn’t deserve a relationship like this’ and fall quiet again. I think she really does feel like the victim.

OP posts:
BCBird · 14/04/2023 21:54

I read about half of your post and thought,wat a madam. You would nit put up with this sort of behaviour from.a friend. Distance yourself as much as possible.

Mycathatesmecuddling · 14/04/2023 21:55

She sounds like her default mode is DARVO

I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! Deny

I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. attack

I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids reverse victim and offender

This is a method abusers use. My mother does this, she is a narcissist. Once you see the pattern it's hard to unsee it. What I have learnt over year of dealing with her is that there is absolutely no way you can behave that will stop the problems from occurring.

I think once you realise that it's very freeing, because you are no longer looking for ways to fix it so this cycle stops. Only she can stop the cycle and until (if) she does retreating and grey rocking is the best way to go

QueenSmartypants · 14/04/2023 21:57

BCBird · 14/04/2023 21:54

I read about half of your post and thought,wat a madam. You would nit put up with this sort of behaviour from.a friend. Distance yourself as much as possible.

Agree.

"compromising her communication boundary"
Might pinch this for over-zealous colleagues at work, though 😉

Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:01

Mycathatesmecuddling · 14/04/2023 21:55

She sounds like her default mode is DARVO

I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! Deny

I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. attack

I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids reverse victim and offender

This is a method abusers use. My mother does this, she is a narcissist. Once you see the pattern it's hard to unsee it. What I have learnt over year of dealing with her is that there is absolutely no way you can behave that will stop the problems from occurring.

I think once you realise that it's very freeing, because you are no longer looking for ways to fix it so this cycle stops. Only she can stop the cycle and until (if) she does retreating and grey rocking is the best way to go

Thank you, I appreciate this insight I will read about DARVO. Do you think it’s on purpose? Ie is there awareness of their behaviour usually with types like these, in your experience?

OP posts:
Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:02

BCBird · 14/04/2023 21:54

I read about half of your post and thought,wat a madam. You would nit put up with this sort of behaviour from.a friend. Distance yourself as much as possible.

Thank you I know you’re right. I just wonder if she knows if she’s doing it

OP posts:
Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:13

@QueenSmartypants haha!

OP posts:
ClaraBourne · 14/04/2023 22:13

I have a sister like this. It's a type of covert-passive- narcissim bullying where you are painted as the one with the problem. There is manipulation and gaslighting and you wonder if it is you. It really isn't.

Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:17

@ClaraBourne do you think your sister is aware of what she is doing? I think that’s what I’m struggling to understand

You have my full empathy as it’s such a draining thing to deal with and you’re right it really does make you feel crazy

OP posts:
ClaraBourne · 14/04/2023 22:36

She would say things in a way that made me think she would change. Then I would get all hopeful and we would have a really nice time together. It would be like a love bomb, where we would have a really nice togethr and I would imagine us with a future doing sisterly things together, shopping, lunches, dinner, confiding, her in my corner ( this has been one sided, I was always in hers) The next time I'd see her again and the shutters would be down and I wonder if I imagined it all. I would be hurt and confused and angry. I'd see the digs and nastiness. And so it would go on. I had condoned so much with my lack of boundaries (counselling helped me with that) and an emotionall neglectful childhood, it seemed the good times (getting scarcer) were worth the escalting abuse. They weren't.

I don't think she will ever undersand the impact her hehaviour has had on me. It eascalated when I met my DH and had two children, to verbal abuse and on one occasion, drunk, she hit me.

I still forgve her because she she was my sister. Then one day, I just had enough. I reached what I call 'peak shit' from her. It wasn't even her worst but I couldn't do it to myself anymore. If I had a friend like her, well I wouldn't have a friend like her. I went no contact.

Please PM me if you need to. I wish you well. It is so hard as I see so many happy sisterly relaionships. You can mourn the sister you wish you had.

dapsnotplimsolls · 14/04/2023 22:42

She's an arse. Go LC or NC and stick to it.

Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:48

dapsnotplimsolls · 14/04/2023 22:42

She's an arse. Go LC or NC and stick to it.

Do you reckon it’s on purpose?

OP posts:
Ishouldbeoutside · 14/04/2023 22:49

Whether it’s in purpose or not, it’s not acceptable. Distance yourself and stop hoping things will change . They won’t.

SoyMarina · 14/04/2023 22:56

ClaraBourne
How do you cope with your sister now?
These posts resonate with me and my situation with my sister.
I have come to realise that my sister will never change.
Very similar behaviours to the above posters and OP.
Lots of friends have cut ties with her and I envy them as there is no way I would be friends with a person like her.
She is toxic and a bully and if you attempt to call her out she becomes the victim.
Really wish I could go no contact but it would cause problems with other family members.

dapsnotplimsolls · 14/04/2023 22:58

yogaoga · 14/04/2023 22:48

Do you reckon it’s on purpose?

Show quote history

Yup.

blackpearwhitelilies · 14/04/2023 23:00

My sister has some of these traits.
she knows she’s difficult but thinks people should just accept her.
i think your sister does know, but doesn’t know how to operate differently to have things the way she wants them.

SoyMarina · 14/04/2023 23:08

My sister has some self awareness but still doesn’t amend her behaviour as she thinks people should accept her behaviour as she thinks it’s good to speak her mind. This often includes shouting and telling people to shut up!
However, she has lost many friends and has had many partners but not long lasting and yet doesn’t think to examine her behaviour.

NigellaAwesome · 14/04/2023 23:13

Sounds like a personality disorder.

WhatHappenedToYoyos · 14/04/2023 23:13

I think you both aren't compatible personality-wise which is where this falls apart. Some of your examples I can imagine from her pov. The coins and shouting "anyway" over your DH- terrible jokes that she has just taken too far/misjudged. The virus one- anxious about her pregnancy and looking for someone to blame (unfair to solely blame you but probably in her mind you had passed on the virus and she was cross). The dog one- I'm assuming you don't have dogs and maybe hers aren't great being walked and she'd rather they went with someone insured who knows about dogs or she wouldn't have to worry about the dogs off the lead etc.

I'm absolutely not condoning how she delivers what she says and does- she does come across rude and inconsiderate and should apologise when she offends or upsets people. However, maybe she genuinely doesn't intend to upset you and just has such a different personality that you struggle to connect.

She must have friends, a partner or the DCs that this issue doesn't happen with?

Either way, I'd suggest calling her out when she does upset you there and then so she can explain her point clearer or apologise. If you think I'm completely off the mark with this pov on the situation then maybe just reduce contact with her like many others have suggested.

Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 23:26

WhatHappenedToYoyos · 14/04/2023 23:13

I think you both aren't compatible personality-wise which is where this falls apart. Some of your examples I can imagine from her pov. The coins and shouting "anyway" over your DH- terrible jokes that she has just taken too far/misjudged. The virus one- anxious about her pregnancy and looking for someone to blame (unfair to solely blame you but probably in her mind you had passed on the virus and she was cross). The dog one- I'm assuming you don't have dogs and maybe hers aren't great being walked and she'd rather they went with someone insured who knows about dogs or she wouldn't have to worry about the dogs off the lead etc.

I'm absolutely not condoning how she delivers what she says and does- she does come across rude and inconsiderate and should apologise when she offends or upsets people. However, maybe she genuinely doesn't intend to upset you and just has such a different personality that you struggle to connect.

She must have friends, a partner or the DCs that this issue doesn't happen with?

Either way, I'd suggest calling her out when she does upset you there and then so she can explain her point clearer or apologise. If you think I'm completely off the mark with this pov on the situation then maybe just reduce contact with her like many others have suggested.

Thank you you make an interesting point. I do really appreciate this perspective to keep me balanced! We’re definitely very different people for good and bad reasons

OP posts:
Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 23:27

Ishouldbeoutside · 14/04/2023 22:49

Whether it’s in purpose or not, it’s not acceptable. Distance yourself and stop hoping things will change . They won’t.

Relative on DH’s side said that in her experience these types of people usually get worse in time, which fits with what you say exactly

OP posts:
Original poster
yogaoga · 14/04/2023 23:46

NigellaAwesome · 14/04/2023 23:13

Sounds like a personality disorder.

I thought that, was reading up online and does have some of the BPD criteria not that I’m going to try and be a psychiatrist as it’s not my place!

OP posts:
billy1966 · 14/04/2023 23:52

She's well aware.

Likes to push you as far as she can and then plays victim when you pull away.

Utterly exhausting.

You don't need to feed her love of drama, just pull away.

Be unavailable and when she does her little routine, don't engage with it.

She can't make you contact her or answer your door.

Just step away and stop making any effort.

Leave your parents to it too.

You and your husband don't have to be involved with such rudeness.

JudgeRudy · 14/04/2023 23:56

yogaoga · 14/04/2023 21:39

Sticky situation with sibling and can’t see the wood for the trees here so appreciate some clarity

The routine goes, she is unkind in some way. Will list examples as think it’s relevant and should avoid drip feeding

  • Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring)
  • Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him
  • Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk
  • Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable
  • Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her
  • Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions.

There are many, many more examples similar to this and I know it’s fundamentally wrong and foul treatment. It doesn’t stop there though. One of the above will happen, I will quietly take a break from her without announcing it, then she will come running back after a few days or sometimes weeks to say something along the lines of

‘I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids’

It has nearly come between me and my parents over the years, they can see the situation more clearly now but seem reluctant to confront it because they’re worried she will stop them seeing their grandkids. DM says she thinks she has low self esteem so calling it out will just make her hate herself even more, but has also expressed it’s not reasonable to expect me to continue to be the bigger person. Have a brother on the scene but he lives overseas

So, my original question: I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing? Maybe it’s a mental illness? DH thinks it’s not and that she is just proving herself to not be very nice. Also sought opinion from trusted friend, as well as relative of DHs who both think to just step well away.

What do you think?

Objective opinion
Bullets points 1 irriating, selfish for not respecting your boundaries 2 rude and a bit mean (if she was piss taking). Was your OH offended?
3 and 6 reasonable. 4, I'd forgive this if she was frightened and angry 5 I'd need more details. Did she really 'stonewall' you, or did she just flounce a bit and not answer a text or 2 and go quiet for a few days because she was hurt/offended. When she offends you, you quietly take a break from her for days or weeks. What's the difference? It's actually her that tries to mend things though, by trying to iron things out (not necessarily the apology I suspect you want). She's letting you know it's important to her. I can't see anything wrong here.

Unless there's lots more to this relationship she doesn't necessarily sound mentally hill. She actually sounds like Kate Archer! Maybe just different personalities. She's extraverted and blunt. Have you tried kindly saying 'Kate, I know you love me so did you actually mean to be so rude?' When she irritates you tell her 'Some of us just don't find that amusing'. Humour goes a long way so rather than taking on the role of the manners police try joking with her.
Of course I don't think it's fair that you should have to do all the work. Tell her not to talk over people and if she continues to do so you (or your OH) will walk away.
I have no advice for your mum. If she thinks that just the way she is, and accepts her, that's in her.
If it gives you hope my sister and I were a little like this. My sister used to role her eyes at me all the time and tut with disapproval at my clothing or something 'fun' I'd done. She was actually quite snipey and I thought she dispised and was ashamed of me. On the other side I would tease her when she bought some knew clothes or shoes. Idcsay to her 'beige'...and 8/10 it was. When she showed me her new car...it was beige. I mean where do you even find a beige car! Last week we had a cream tea together. She showed me some nature pics and her crafts, I told her about the phone Emergency Alerts and explained who Dylan Mulvaney was and did a handstand. She's younger! We had a lovely day....its taken 20 years though

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