Sister - deliberate behaviour or unintentional?

[yogaoga]

Sticky situation with sibling and can’t see the wood for the trees here so appreciate some clarity

The routine goes, she is unkind in some way. Will list examples as think it’s relevant and should avoid drip feeding

• Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring)
• Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him
• Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk
• Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable
• Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her
• Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions.

There are many, many more examples similar to this and I know it’s fundamentally wrong and foul treatment. It doesn’t stop there though. One of the above will happen, I will quietly take a break from her without announcing it, then she will come running back after a few days or sometimes weeks to say something along the lines of

‘I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids’

It has nearly come between me and my parents over the years, they can see the situation more clearly now but seem reluctant to confront it because they’re worried she will stop them seeing their grandkids. DM says she thinks she has low self esteem so calling it out will just make her hate herself even more, but has also expressed it’s not reasonable to expect me to continue to be the bigger person. Have a brother on the scene but he lives overseas

So, my original question: I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing? Maybe it’s a mental illness? DH thinks it’s not and that she is just proving herself to not be very nice. Also sought opinion from trusted friend, as well as relative of DHs who both think to just step well away.

What do you think?

We don’t choose our family and sometimes people are dickheads, your sister sounds like a dickhead and someone you wouldn’t choose to be friends with. I would distance myself for my own mental health. I feel I have a healthy relationship with my family (many would disagree) we don’t get in each others business, we’re not all friends as such, we are siblings, we all talk on a family message group, but we don’t get involved in each others private lives. We all work together to take care of our elderly parents and share the responsibilities. We all have plenty friends and family is separate. No one argues, no one falls out.

@SoyMarina I went no contact. We had so many conversations where I would try and raise her behaviour, she was never sorry, it was me, I was jealous, I upset her, I was too sensitive etc, or it was just a joke. I knew it would never change, unless one of us died. There was a lot of abuse when she was drunk.

Parents both dead. Other siblins minimise her behavious as otherwise they would poke the beast and they don't want to do that. When she hit me, one of my brothers laughed. He has enabled her because she adores him and his children. All my family want me to make amemds, as it makes their lives easier. Except my older brother, who recently died. He was in my corner.
I will have to see her soon for his memorial. But I'll not waver.

OP, you can grey rock and not let her get a rise from you. Give it a go. It depnds on the family dynamics. Maybe low contact except for family occasions.

@Marztops hat sounds like you have a good setup there.

Thank you. That set up sounds a dream!

Thanks ClaraBourne
I’m not brave enough to go no contact….yet, but I would love to. To never have to speak with her again would be bliss.
*Marztops’ I am also part of a Siblings WhatsApp group used mainly to discuss legal issues re my parents’ estate. So, I will be following your lead and sticking to that.

Thank you @billy1966

Neither I am @SoyMarina I think I’d be under too much family pressure

We were at an Uncle's funeral recently and I noticed her telling various cousins off for not coming to see her (they live in the same town, luckily I live in another country).
She doesn’t want to see why people avoid her. She thinks she can force them to see her because we are related.
She is very lonely though, due to having ‘spoken her mind’ as in , lost her temper, with many people both related and not.

I've got a sister I find difficult and it came to a head when she had DC, because the stress of that tipped her over the edge and she took the stress out on me (and other family members), but because I was struggling with infertility, medical and career issues at the time, it had a real impact.

After 10 miserable years (putting up with behaviour that I wouldn't from a friend for the sake of maintaining a relationship with my nieces) I had a bit of an epiphany when she didn't invite me and DH to her 40th birthday party.

Oh! I thought. She doesn't actually want a close relationship - she doesn't think of me that way.

So I backed right off and now we communicate with the odd update or pic on WhatsApp and we meet a few times a year, ideally at our parents' place (my mum either prefers her to me or feels she needs more support - it was apparently decided many decades ago that I am "the coper"). My nieces are old enough for me to text them directly if I want to catch up.

When I stepped right back I realised she struggles with all relationships and only has one friend. It's not me.

I don't look for any kind of emotional support from my parents or sister.

Unlike your DSis, mine is really not looking for a fight. I have a SEN child. I see some parallels. I feel bad she didn't get help with relationships etc when she was younger.

I did find a good book on sibling relationships which I will see if I can find the name of.

Sorry to waffle on but distance yourself! Eventually you will reach the eye rolling stage.

She’s just an unpleasant person. She may well have insecurities, but so to lots of people, and they manage to be nice and treat people well.

You need to accept that you’ve been landed with a crap sibling and step back. For your own sake but also to support your husband.

Put her on low contact, and just say yeah great, when she comes running back, and keep her on low contact.

It will be awkward for a bit bit everyone will get used to the new normal.

I think you work it to suit YOU.

Be unavailable.

Make your house a safe area.

Avoid her visiting your home.

Whatever she comes back with, say fine, but do not let her into your life.

Keep your business private from your parents who may let things slip.

She will get worse as she ages, so be prepared for that.

Some people in families feel entitled to a relationship with you.

They are not.

You don't have to engage with her, you don't have to allow yourself to be dragged into any back and forth.
Remain silent BUT UNAVAILABLE TO HER.

Silence is a powerful tool.

What can she do.

Become more batshit?

It won't be around you and your husband and you will not have to entertain her when your parents die.

Thats the bottom line.

Should your mother push you.
Simply tell her that it's your business and best she stays out of it.

Expect push back from her.
Bullys don't like being ignored.
It will drive her mad.

Keep saying on a loop, "I've nothing to say".

It may seem huge.

Start small by making the decision to avoid as much as possible.

Do not allow her into your home.

Get a video bell, so that you can enforce this.

The most important thing to realise is that she won't change.
She will get worse as she ages.

So stepping away is your best long term strategy for a bit of peace.

Thank you. Funnily enough, she actively stays away and in the past has dropped Christmas cards and birthday gift round at my parents which is actually further for her to get to than mine. I’m not sure why it’s this way, I’d have always welcomed her.

You’re right, you can have a whole array of MH struggles but you don’t allow it to come through into your behaviour towards others. DH just shrugs it off whenever she’s not nice and is always polite to her. He usually doesn’t express his opinion as he says she’s my sister, but when really grilled he has expressed thinking she’s just not very nice to anyone. His words- ‘I don’t like her but I am amicable. Why can’t she be amicable for the sake of the person in the middle? (Me) which is very true. Lots of the things she does are childish.

I have tried lots of times to speak to my parents about the problem but they are dismissive and to be honest, kind of clueless. They just say "oh it's sibling rivalry".

Typical example. We went on a few days away with DPs the week before Easter (staying in different places but in the same resort). My DM mentioned DSis and family were visiting her on Easter Monday.

I had Easter eggs for my nieces and also wanted to pick up a piece of equipment I'd lent DPs for their holiday house, so I popped over in the afternoon.

Oh? Says DM vaguely, did you not bring DD? Err no mum! (She didn't invite me, never mind DH and DD). They'd all had an Easter lunch together. This is how it goes down on their regular school holiday visits. We generally have to crash them if we want to be included. My sis seemed pleased to see me but she never actually tells me when she's going to be there (DP live about 40 mins from us, DSis a couple of hours away).

I increasingly can't be bothered with any of it! Either invite us properly or don't, but fgs communicate like adults!

It’s totally on purpose and she is totally defaulting to her DARVO as the other poster said. Go low contact or no contact. These people get away with horrible things as no one wants to confront them. If she says “you think I’m nasty” I would reply “that’s because you are, and actually I think you are well aware of it” the. End the conversation and break away. Just because you are blood relatives doesn’t mean you have to put up with crap. You would not take this from a mate.

Sorry OP, didn't mean to derail. I just wanted to empathise a bit with your DH! No fun being in the middle of inlaw stupidity.

@Phineyj your parents don't sound very nice either🙄.

OP, great that she doesn't visit your home.

Makes it much easier.

Lots of people have MH struggles but only some think they can use everyone around them as an emotional punching bag for them.

www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aw/d/B000UG4KF0?psc=1&ref=ppx_pop_mob_b_asin_title this is the book. It's very practical.

Another one I read was this. It's more psychological but there's a list in there of 10 typical unsolved issues from childhood in sister relationships and DSis and I tick all 10 boxes. That was an eye-opener!

www.amazon.co.uk/My-Dearest-Enemy-Dangerous-Friend/dp/0415390486/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=P139W6XDEUX0&keywords=dorothy+rowe+dearest+enemy&qid=1681547424&sprefix=dorothy+rowe+dearest+enemy%2Caps%2C102&sr=8-1

100% deliberate. The throwing chocolate coins at you proves this.
That was a choice. A childish one and she knew exactly what she was doing.
We pick our friends because we can't pick our family.
If someone doesn't bring positivity to your life then you don't need them in it! X

So, my original question: I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing?

What she is doing is absolutely deliberate in intent, in her head you are her scapegoat. She has NO problems whatsover with her behaviour and in her head you deserve it. People like your sister have no empathy or insight whatsoever.

"Maybe it’s a mental illness?" No
"DH thinks it’s not " He is correct.

"and that she is just proving herself to not be very nice. Also sought opinion from trusted friend, as well as relative of DHs who both think to just step well away".

Would you tolerate this from a friend, no. You should not be at all tolerating this from your sister either. NC is the way forward with someone like this, with you out of the picture then her attentions will turn to someone else. NPD is a personality disorder and besides which it is not possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

I think to be fair to my parents they are typical products of their wartime generation, had a lot of trauma growing up and are absolutely lacking in any kind of relevant skills. My dad had a poor relationship with his sibling and my mum was an only child.

They are lacking skills and insight rather than deliberately meddling.

Really though when you are saddled with a crap family of whatever kind, it best to work hard on your own family and friendships as you'll never fix the former.

To me it sounds like traits of a cluster B personality disorder.
We have one in our family
It's very difficult and exhausting to maintain a relationship with them.

Accepting they’ll never change is key, I think.
My sister is in her early 50s, has lost many friends and has never sustained a relationship beyond a few months in spite of being desperate to marry and have children.
Thus is a major source of sadness for her.
So, at best when not really disliking her, I pity her.

Sounds like my sister.

She's an all out narcissist to everyone, siblings, partners, her own kids.

I've given up trying to placate her and have gone NC. My life is much better despite other family members thinking I'm now the monster.

I suggest you do the same.

But going no contact causes lots of problems, imo.
Small and large family gatherings would be awkward and I know I would dread them even more than I do now, if I was blanking her at them.
I admire one of my siblings who is the master of low (almost no) contact with her.
She tells herself he’s like that with me and my other brother too, which isn’t the case.
Her self delusion is what keeps her going, I suppose.

Thanks, interesting you should say as I was researching cluster B and it sounds that way to me too x