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Original poster

Sister - deliberate behaviour or unintentional?

89 replies

yogaoga · 14/04/2023 21:39

Sticky situation with sibling and can’t see the wood for the trees here so appreciate some clarity

The routine goes, she is unkind in some way. Will list examples as think it’s relevant and should avoid drip feeding

  • Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring)
  • Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him
  • Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk
  • Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable
  • Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her
  • Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions.

There are many, many more examples similar to this and I know it’s fundamentally wrong and foul treatment. It doesn’t stop there though. One of the above will happen, I will quietly take a break from her without announcing it, then she will come running back after a few days or sometimes weeks to say something along the lines of

‘I care about you so much even though you think I’m intense/nasty, I really love you, you numpty! I’m not the wicked witch you think I am! I’ve always wanted to get on well with you and that will never change but once again things are strained and I can’t have this level of toxicity in my life. I care so much about fixing this mess with you that I’m giving up time I could be spending with the kids’

It has nearly come between me and my parents over the years, they can see the situation more clearly now but seem reluctant to confront it because they’re worried she will stop them seeing their grandkids. DM says she thinks she has low self esteem so calling it out will just make her hate herself even more, but has also expressed it’s not reasonable to expect me to continue to be the bigger person. Have a brother on the scene but he lives overseas

So, my original question: I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing? Maybe it’s a mental illness? DH thinks it’s not and that she is just proving herself to not be very nice. Also sought opinion from trusted friend, as well as relative of DHs who both think to just step well away.

What do you think?

OP posts:
AliceOlive · 17/04/2023 22:27

She's been begging you to call her? Were you not calling because of her rudeness?

Ooolaaaala · 17/04/2023 23:22

It’s the classic push-pull / nice-nasty abuse cycle.

Know the dynamic and step away to a safe, healthy and indifferent distance so she can’t keep yanking your chain.

This is who she is - she will never change.

Dont be a participant in her game - drop the rope.

Original poster
yogaoga · 17/04/2023 23:26

Ooolaaaala · 17/04/2023 23:22

It’s the classic push-pull / nice-nasty abuse cycle.

Know the dynamic and step away to a safe, healthy and indifferent distance so she can’t keep yanking your chain.

This is who she is - she will never change.

Dont be a participant in her game - drop the rope.

Thank you. It does feel like push pull, and the goal posts move every time. Are people like this incapable of change then in your experience?

OP posts:
AliceOlive · 17/04/2023 23:29

She’s unlikely to change, but you can get her to stop treating you this way by not giving her the reaction and attention she wants.

Ooolaaaala · 17/04/2023 23:36

Yes.

But it’s more important that you look towards your own self to ask why you are not accepting the evidence of her actions time and time again.

Your misplaced hope is getting you hurt constantly.

Having said that there is a slim chance she might change a tiny bit if you take away her emotional punching bag.

She will either have to reflect and adapt if she wants your attention or she might just target someone else.

However is most likely to up the ante in the early days - so take yourself out of punching distance.

Ooolaaaala · 17/04/2023 23:38

It’s probably very painful for you to give up that hope and sit with the reality of the situation. But you will come to accept and tolerate that distress in time.

DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 17/04/2023 23:53

billy1966 · 14/04/2023 23:52

She's well aware.

Likes to push you as far as she can and then plays victim when you pull away.

Utterly exhausting.

You don't need to feed her love of drama, just pull away.

Be unavailable and when she does her little routine, don't engage with it.

She can't make you contact her or answer your door.

Just step away and stop making any effort.

Leave your parents to it too.

You and your husband don't have to be involved with such rudeness.

This... Also stop chasing her and trying to please her. It doesn't work. Don't "protect" your parents from her behaviour. I don't mean start a fight in any way but don't sit there and put up with it so as not to upset them. They are partially responsible for her behaviour as they've not dealt with it in the past and they need to recognise that they have a part to play in this.
Distance, calm, not rising to the bait but calmly correcting. "no that is not true" etc.
I know it is easy to see things with hindsight and from an outside perspective but looking at your examples. These are things that seem to repeat themselves and I think you've realised that you can't really change her, but you can deal with it differently. I have a relative exactly like this and spent years trying to please them and stop them from being so ready to take offence. They also used the "cold Shoulder" technique. This kind of behaviour from them - pushing you away - drawing you back in - can take over your life. Change the pattern.

eg

  • Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring) - Get up and walk away, she's childish.
  • Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him - she knows that ignoring DH will rile you but DH is probably grateful she's ignoring him. Rejoice! Loudly shouting anyway. Roll your eyes. Asking her if she doesn't like him is playing into her nonsense. Act as if you no longer care what she thinks. Whether she likes you or not. It is pointless trying to reason with someone like this. You don't have to negotiate with her from now on. This is one example where your parents or other relatives could step in.
  • Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk - don't offer her services to try to placate her and to be "nice" - it is kind of you but it won't change her behaviour towards you.
  • Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable. That is nonsense and completely untrue - and repeat and exit.
  • Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her - What a ludicrous thing for anyone to say! She was making your engagement all about her and wanting any attention you might have had.
  • Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions. - Yeah -Shes really well-intentioned (NOT!) This sounds like her responding to you asking why she doesn't text you often. It's probably better not to receive texts from an abusive person.
Original poster
yogaoga · 18/04/2023 13:44

DuckbilledSplatterPuff · 17/04/2023 23:53

This... Also stop chasing her and trying to please her. It doesn't work. Don't "protect" your parents from her behaviour. I don't mean start a fight in any way but don't sit there and put up with it so as not to upset them. They are partially responsible for her behaviour as they've not dealt with it in the past and they need to recognise that they have a part to play in this.
Distance, calm, not rising to the bait but calmly correcting. "no that is not true" etc.
I know it is easy to see things with hindsight and from an outside perspective but looking at your examples. These are things that seem to repeat themselves and I think you've realised that you can't really change her, but you can deal with it differently. I have a relative exactly like this and spent years trying to please them and stop them from being so ready to take offence. They also used the "cold Shoulder" technique. This kind of behaviour from them - pushing you away - drawing you back in - can take over your life. Change the pattern.

eg

  • Throwing chocolate coins at me over and over (when I challenged, I was laughed at and told to stop being boring) - Get up and walk away, she's childish.
  • Impolite to DH; ignoring him, talking over him, laughing and loudly shouting ANYWAY… when he begins to speak at family events. Other people have noticed. I asked over a coffee if she didn’t like him and she deflected it and said I look for ways to demonise her and confirm my false beliefs that she is a mean person, and claimed to like him - she knows that ignoring DH will rile you but DH is probably grateful she's ignoring him. Rejoice! Loudly shouting anyway. Roll your eyes. Asking her if she doesn't like him is playing into her nonsense. Act as if you no longer care what she thinks. Whether she likes you or not. It is pointless trying to reason with someone like this. You don't have to negotiate with her from now on. This is one example where your parents or other relatives could step in.
  • Offering to walk her two dogs to do them a favour when she was talking about a busy day upcoming, was told they’d rather pay someone and know they’re in safe hands on a walk - don't offer her services to try to placate her and to be "nice" - it is kind of you but it won't change her behaviour towards you.
  • Caught a cold type virus one winter when pregnant and implied I had given her it because I work with children (?) and had met her for a coffee before I had symptoms - this was a disgrace because she was vulnerable. That is nonsense and completely untrue - and repeat and exit.
  • Stonewalling after my engagement because she didn’t find out first and she deserves to have a sister who prioritises her - What a ludicrous thing for anyone to say! She was making your engagement all about her and wanting any attention you might have had.
  • Claims texting me is ‘compromising her communication boundary’ because I am apparently so prone to misinterpreting her tone and intentions. - Yeah -Shes really well-intentioned (NOT!) This sounds like her responding to you asking why she doesn't text you often. It's probably better not to receive texts from an abusive person.
Show quote history

Thank you. This has helped to alter my perspectibe

OP posts:
CrackerAndPudding · 18/04/2023 14:22

yogaoga Honestly, why did you call her? If it's against your better judgement and interactions with her are negative then why call? I think you need to accept that you can only control your own actions, and take responsibility for them.

Things like whether she's weaponising her DC or not is pointless. Does it change her behaviour? No. Does it change your parents lack of action? No.

Her behaviour is horrible but being totally blunt it's also clearly part of a pattern where you go overboard with "olive branches" like the calls or dog walking when you know fine well she'll behave badly in return.

Original poster
yogaoga · 18/04/2023 17:00

CrackerAndPudding · 18/04/2023 14:22

yogaoga Honestly, why did you call her? If it's against your better judgement and interactions with her are negative then why call? I think you need to accept that you can only control your own actions, and take responsibility for them.

Things like whether she's weaponising her DC or not is pointless. Does it change her behaviour? No. Does it change your parents lack of action? No.

Her behaviour is horrible but being totally blunt it's also clearly part of a pattern where you go overboard with "olive branches" like the calls or dog walking when you know fine well she'll behave badly in return.

I thought (stupidly) I’d give her the benefit of the doubt and like a PP said maybe it was misunderstanding/personality clash and she really did just want to speak to me over the phone. I will really never forget how menacing she sounded. I like to understand why things happen generally, so it’s hard to move forward from this and just accepting there’s no explanation! I’m also anxious to go NC entirely because I’m worried about her DC in all honesty but I know it’s not my place to be. Besides, there’s no way to be close with them without tolerating it from my sister which I’m not prepared to do

OP posts:
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 18/04/2023 17:47

The central core of -your- behaviour here is that you want a steady, caring relationship with your sister.

Unfortunately, given her personality that's impossible. You can bang your head on this wall as often as you like, but it takes two to have a relationship - not only you - and she's not a steady, caring person.

She's got a giant ego, perhaps rather camoflaged as insecurity, and she's manipulating and pulling you around

It does feel like push pull, and the goal posts move every time.

If the goal posts are moving every time you will never win. All you can do is stop playing the game.

I think the best thing to do is to grieve the relationship you want, because it's not there. Then to decide what you are willing to do and what you aren't, almost as if she was a work colleague rather than a sister. It's analytic and it's the only way to deal with it without getting drawn into the cycle again. When she breaks your thought-out boundaries, step away. ignore her attempts to draw you back in until -you- are ready to speak to her. Keep your distance.

She's very unkind, you know. Blaming you for having a cold, being so rude to your DH, the ridiculous and unkind behaviour over the engagement.

Is she jealous of you, or just plain spoiled and unpleasant?

KettrickenSmiled · 18/04/2023 18:01

I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing?

The behaviour pattern is remarkably Cluster-B - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cluster-b

Not that diagnosis is the issue (although it will help you identify tools for dealing with it) - the effect on you & DH is.

She likely doesn't feel there is any problem with her: people with personality disorders of this type are expert blame-layers & will excuse themselves any wrongdoing because they must always be in the right. They also love to play the victim: hence her setting you up with the latest irritation, then pointing the finger at you when you react normally to her nastiness.
https://www.banyantherapy.com/darvo/

She then also gets the lovely dose of melodrama she is after, with herself in the starring role & you portrayed as an antagoniser.

As to the harm she is causing: no - again, no, she won't accept that she is in any way at fault. Other people's feelings won't be important or even real to her, because other people are simply props in her self-inflicted drama - there to give her attention, to react to her bids to portray herself as victim, & generally used for sport.

The best way of dealing with it is Grey Rock -
https://www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock

& I suspect you will find this website very helpful -
https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/fog-fear-obligation-guilt
have a browse round the TOOLBOX section too.

Good luck OP - it's not easy dealing with constant conflict caused by somebody with suspect motivations. Flowers

Cluster B

Personality disorders—atypical ways of thinking about oneself and relating to other people—are grouped into three clusters: A, B, and C. Cluster B disorders are marked by inappropriate, volatile emotionality and often unpredictable behavior. The disord...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cluster-b

Original poster
yogaoga · 18/04/2023 18:49

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 18/04/2023 17:47

The central core of -your- behaviour here is that you want a steady, caring relationship with your sister.

Unfortunately, given her personality that's impossible. You can bang your head on this wall as often as you like, but it takes two to have a relationship - not only you - and she's not a steady, caring person.

She's got a giant ego, perhaps rather camoflaged as insecurity, and she's manipulating and pulling you around

It does feel like push pull, and the goal posts move every time.

If the goal posts are moving every time you will never win. All you can do is stop playing the game.

I think the best thing to do is to grieve the relationship you want, because it's not there. Then to decide what you are willing to do and what you aren't, almost as if she was a work colleague rather than a sister. It's analytic and it's the only way to deal with it without getting drawn into the cycle again. When she breaks your thought-out boundaries, step away. ignore her attempts to draw you back in until -you- are ready to speak to her. Keep your distance.

She's very unkind, you know. Blaming you for having a cold, being so rude to your DH, the ridiculous and unkind behaviour over the engagement.

Is she jealous of you, or just plain spoiled and unpleasant?

Thank you, you’re really insightful

It’s quite obvious she is insecure generally and has been for a long time. You would never know it as she likes to boast about herself and life. I don’t think she is jealous of me, she has a lovely DH, house and life. The things money can and can’t buy. I have a happy life too with the same things but there wouldn’t be a reason for her to be jealous if you see what I mean. We have lovely parents who do like to be diplomatic and keep the peace however they identify she is not behaving fairly. Growing up they always treated us very equally. She was substantially older than me, so possibly she had a different early upbringing than me but not sure

I will try to be more objective and protect my own peace until I’ve nothing better to do than deal with that behaviour though. Good ideas

OP posts:
Original poster
yogaoga · 18/04/2023 18:51

KettrickenSmiled · 18/04/2023 18:01

I am really curious to know if there is any chance, in your opinion, she thinks there is no problem with her behaviour / is unaware of the harm she’s causing?

The behaviour pattern is remarkably Cluster-B - https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/cluster-b

Not that diagnosis is the issue (although it will help you identify tools for dealing with it) - the effect on you & DH is.

She likely doesn't feel there is any problem with her: people with personality disorders of this type are expert blame-layers & will excuse themselves any wrongdoing because they must always be in the right. They also love to play the victim: hence her setting you up with the latest irritation, then pointing the finger at you when you react normally to her nastiness.
https://www.banyantherapy.com/darvo/

She then also gets the lovely dose of melodrama she is after, with herself in the starring role & you portrayed as an antagoniser.

As to the harm she is causing: no - again, no, she won't accept that she is in any way at fault. Other people's feelings won't be important or even real to her, because other people are simply props in her self-inflicted drama - there to give her attention, to react to her bids to portray herself as victim, & generally used for sport.

The best way of dealing with it is Grey Rock -
https://www.healthline.com/health/grey-rock

& I suspect you will find this website very helpful -
https://outofthefog.website/toolbox-1/2015/11/17/fog-fear-obligation-guilt
have a browse round the TOOLBOX section too.

Good luck OP - it's not easy dealing with constant conflict caused by somebody with suspect motivations. Flowers

Thank you, it is really difficult. For a long time I questioned if it was me but I have known for a while it’s not. It must be sad craving drama all the time like that and to have disordered thinking, I can pity her in many ways. Definitely identify with DARVO, almost every situation is that with her. She reverses the roles often and claims she wants a close relationship with me and that I ‘want nothing to do with her/reject her/don’t see her as a person with wants and needs’, but yet continues to mistreat me. I suppose rational thinking people will not understand this try as we might. I appreciate your message x

OP posts:
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