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Original poster

Can a real narcissist change?

86 replies

Cookiemonster83 · 13/03/2023 14:17

Is it something in the brain that can’t be undone, like faulty wiring?

Can you have a good upbringing and just be wired that way or does it need to adverse child experiences etc?

OP posts:
Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 13/03/2023 20:17

Every time she does something and you try to correct and explain she gets hostile. She will then say something like mock hit the baby or tell me she hates her life. Homework is a no go, it’s so stressful she refuses to do it then get quite mean, runs off screaming, hides in the corner, tells me she wants a different life, hates her life…it’s way over the top for just homework. I ask her to tidy her room or pick up toys and just get a no you do it.

OP posts:
stealtheatingtunnocks · 13/03/2023 20:43

i have an encouraging anecdote.

a very close family friend’s kid behaved like that from about the age of 3.

after an incident at school he got a diagnosis of ASD and ODD, there may be other diagnosis that I am not aware of.

he just did what he needed to in order to get what he wanted. He would do that to a gerbil because he’d see it like a fidget spinner and not a creature that could feel pain.

About 6 years he shoved my toddler out of his way, really booted her and she had a badly grazed face from the pavement. He didn’t care, the baby was in his way so he felt that he simply solved a problem.

by the end of primary school he was a problem because he was getting stronger and the angry behaviour was escalating - the other kids would purposefully wind him up in order to laugh at him and so he’d hurt someone and then he was in even more trouble.

He was not a boy who needed friendships but he knew that he was not liked and that bothered him. It was all very complex and hard for his family. He was a smart, funny boy who had a total lack of insight into other people.

he landed up on some anger management programme at CAMHS which included the family and school which was a long term thing and worked Well. He is now about to start Uni and is doing really great.

He is exceptionally bright and understands how people tick on an intellectual level. he is still not got friends but he has the ability to manage relationships wirh his Saturday job colleagues- mainly because he knows that he wants the money from the job so he has to get on with them. It is enough and the thing is that he is genuinely happy.

his mum says the thing she is glad about was early diagnosis - that’s what got them into this CAMHS problem.

good luck, it sounds really hard. I hope your gerbil is ok. Maybe get a vet check incase it needs pain or infection managed? Pray animals will hide pain.

Pinkbonbon · 13/03/2023 20:51

Cookiemonster83 · 13/03/2023 20:17

Every time she does something and you try to correct and explain she gets hostile. She will then say something like mock hit the baby or tell me she hates her life. Homework is a no go, it’s so stressful she refuses to do it then get quite mean, runs off screaming, hides in the corner, tells me she wants a different life, hates her life…it’s way over the top for just homework. I ask her to tidy her room or pick up toys and just get a no you do it.

See, that used to be what a smacked arse was for. But apparently that's a nono these days. So you'll have to find some sort of discipline that works.

What your describing is a child in serious need of rules, boundaries and enforcement of these. Get a bunch of parenting books and see what works best from what they recommend.

Also, as she is seeing her dad again, you need to have a talk with her about how to spot bullies and that we do not pander to them. And to tell her that you understand her dad can be difficult sometimes and that if she ever needs to talk, you are there for her.

Enthrallingstoryofstillnessandlight · 13/03/2023 22:37

Pinkbonbon · 13/03/2023 20:51

See, that used to be what a smacked arse was for. But apparently that's a nono these days. So you'll have to find some sort of discipline that works.

What your describing is a child in serious need of rules, boundaries and enforcement of these. Get a bunch of parenting books and see what works best from what they recommend.

Also, as she is seeing her dad again, you need to have a talk with her about how to spot bullies and that we do not pander to them. And to tell her that you understand her dad can be difficult sometimes and that if she ever needs to talk, you are there for her.

Show quote history

Omg, I don't think you are right here at all. A smacked arse? Christ alive and I'm quite old...

Lostmarblesfinder · 13/03/2023 22:40

Enthrallingstoryofstillnessandlight · 13/03/2023 22:37

Omg, I don't think you are right here at all. A smacked arse? Christ alive and I'm quite old...

Show quote history

The biggest narcissist I know (predator/psychopath too for good measure) had a very well smacked arse. I grew up in the same house as him so I can confidently speak to the fact that smacking was a well utilised discipline tool.

GarlicGrace · 13/03/2023 23:24

I'll bow to direct experience here, but would suggest grasping the bull by the horns - stop hoping DD hasn't got ODD and nascent psychopathy, and assume that she has.

OK, there are significant advantages to this disorder or difference, but the big issue is that societies can't work if everyone only cares about themselves. Therefore, people punish those who won't behave considerately: first by exclusion (which might not bother her much) but them more seriously as time goes on. She's likely to be deprived of opportunities, beaten up and later sent to prison. On the other hand, if she learns how to live within society as a 'normal' person, her particular character style could give her brilliant opportunities. Queen of all she surveys, if she plays her cards right.

She's also a young child, with the same needs for nurturing, encouragement and validation as any other child. I imagine that learning to be a socially-integrated sociopath is best done with the right professional support, but I don't know how you'd access that. What d'you think, @CreateAUsername2023 ?

Pinkbonbon · 14/03/2023 00:05

Presumably we want to stop her becoming a sociopath though pp! Not make her the best version of one xD

I mean...unless we go the Dexter route lol.
I suppose something could be said for that. Raise her to hunt wife beaters perhaps?
I jest...of course...

Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 02:12

I’ve tried to teach her about being part of a family, she is not above anyone else, she is expected to follow certain rules. We take things away as punishment and she isn’t bothered, no treats isn’t bothered. The only thing that bothers her is to tell her teachers how she is behaving. It worries me she will do something bad when she is in trouble. I ask her why she always reacts when told off and she says she’s angry so wants to upset the person who made her angry. This is where she isn’t self reflecting. I’ve tried to explain and say well you need to think about how the other person feels and say sorry, but she simply responds what about me. With the gerbil she was so annoyed that she was in trouble that she hit out and got really angry. We tried to explain that it hurt the gerbil but her own feelings of anger took precedent and there was no getting through.

Her dad puts her on a pedestal, she can do what she likes. I feel he is giving her more self importance then she should have. We love her to bits but she isn’t above any of us in the house, she is part of the family. Telling her anything is a waste of time as it’s met with a whatever really, it’s very difficult.

OP posts:
Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 02:19

I’m no expert but her behaviour worries me. In my understanding of narcissism the other person can not take criticism and when they start to feel like they are they hit out to redirect the negative emotions they are feeling. She doesn’t like being told off or having to follow rules so hits out because she feels anger. Lately it’s always a threat to hurt her baby sister. When I was pregnant is was always a threat to hurt my stomach (and she did hit me at times). Before that the gerbils or something else. She always reacts with something that she knows is a no go area really. Then her actions always seem to take over from the initial incident. To get her own way she really will go a long way.

OP posts:
Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 02:32

I’m not saying she is a narcissist she is only 7 but I feel that not doing something about this and letting her hit out when feeling negative internal emotions and hurting others instead then not being able to apologise isn’t good long term.

OP posts:
Eyerollcentral · 14/03/2023 02:47

Cookiemonster83 · 13/03/2023 14:17

Is it something in the brain that can’t be undone, like faulty wiring?

Can you have a good upbringing and just be wired that way or does it need to adverse child experiences etc?

No. Don’t waste your time.

Eyerollcentral · 14/03/2023 02:50

Cookiemonster83 · 13/03/2023 16:52

We got her gerbils and she picked it up by the tail and swung it around laughing.

Injuring animals is a major red flag. You need to get this child to a psychiatrist asap.

QueenCamilla · 14/03/2023 03:49

Doesn't sound like Narcissism.
Yes, Narcissists do hate being told off, but they hate it so much, that they'll outwardly behave. They'll go out of their way to not be identified at fault for anything and will conceal bad behaviours.
The fragile ego of a Narcissist is based on their self-image of perfection. They know that hurting a pet makes them a bad person. A Narcissistic doesn't want to be SEEN as bad, it's like cryptonite! So a child might "accidentally" harm the pet... Or blame the cat for the missing tail.

Anti-social personality disorder?
ODD ?

NCMum79 · 14/03/2023 07:12

I'd suggest referring to CAHMs. It's extreme behaviour but - it sounds as though your DD has a lot happening, seeing her dad again and a new baby?

Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 07:52

She does have a lot going on and she is being manipulated by her dad unfortunately. She witnessed a lot in her early years and I was suffering ptsd and depression but did the best I could. I can’t help feeling a little guilty in case I’ve caused this. Well he caused it but still

OP posts:
MarshaMelrose · 14/03/2023 07:55

If they thought it was a problem worth changing, they wouldn't be narcissists.

Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 08:34

Mine passed a DAPP approved course but is still emotionally abusing his daughter. He must have shown some insight to have passed the course. Or can they literally fake insight if it leads to an outcome they are looking for then go straight back to abusing? To be able to fake insight they must have some idea how to behave like the rest of us.

OP posts:
MarshaMelrose · 14/03/2023 09:13

You can learn to say all the things they want you to say, but it doesn't mean you think they're right. So as soon as you've got what you want from them, you can go back to your normal behaviour. Which is the obviously, totally reasonable and correct way to behave. (To a narcissist!)

Original poster
Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 09:20

@MarshaMelrose makes sense. A narcissist by definition then can not change. Even in their change it will be for their benefit. People will always remain objects for supply of some kind of another. They must be very good at adapting then because each of their victims are different.

OP posts:
coffeeisthebest · 14/03/2023 09:28

How are you emotionally responding to her OP if you don't mind me asking? Are you calm or do you fly into a rage when she does these things? Because our kids are takin

MarshaMelrose · 14/03/2023 09:32

Cookiemonster83 · 14/03/2023 09:20

@MarshaMelrose makes sense. A narcissist by definition then can not change. Even in their change it will be for their benefit. People will always remain objects for supply of some kind of another. They must be very good at adapting then because each of their victims are different.

I'd never say never. But it's highly unlikely because to change you have to want to and I'm not sure many narcissists think they need to.

Are their victims different, though? They must be supplying something to the narcissist that fuels their ego and sense of importance. They might look different externally, but clearly their interaction with the narcissist in some way fulfils their need.

Truelyfuckedoff · 14/03/2023 09:33

The only thing a narcissist can change are their mask and their victims.

denpark · 14/03/2023 09:33

No. They can't. No matter how much they try to convince you otherwise

coffeeisthebest · 14/03/2023 09:34

Sorry clicked post too soon. Our kids are constantly taking in messaging from us so how we respond is crucial. So as you demonstrate empathy towards the baby, the gerbil, yourself and model it for her, so can she learn and start to mirror you. She has to learn it somewhere. Rather than labelling her at this age try and work with what she is doing

CheekyHobson · 14/03/2023 09:40

Narcissists are not insane, they know right from wrong. They know the “right” thing to say to get what they want, even if they don’t actually believe it themselves.

They can fake feelings or understandings under certain circumstances but it’s just superficial words, so eventually you’ll start to see a mismatch between what they have told you they think or feel and how they later behave, which won’t be in line with what you’d expect from someone who actually thinks/feels the way they claim to.

I actually think they sort of convince they’re faking it for your own good. Once, when my narcissist ex had to admit he’d lied to me earlier after I caught him out, I asked him why he had lied in the first place. He said, exasperated, “Because that was what you wanted to hear!” What he meant was that it was what HE wanted me to hear, because the truth would have meant I probably wouldn’t have stayed in the relationship. Classic narcissism, telling himself that his act of self-protection was actually doing me a favour.

Anyway, to the OP, your daughter definitely sounds like she has very low empathy, which can be the basis for a number of personality disorders. Early treatment is key to any change for the better. I believe that reward-based systems have been proven to work a lot better than punishment-based ones, but you have to be sure the rewards are something the kid really wants. If you’re offering rewards that they actually don’t care about, it won’t be effective.