Is infidelity immoral and if so should society be involved or is it a strictly personal matter?

[mids2019]

Infidelity seems to be one of the few areas in life where psychological harm can be brought to bear against another. In some societies infidelity is viewed as a criminal act or at least viewed negatively.

In liberal societies infidelity is a strictly personal matter and society does not act as a stakeholder in the relationship with no civil penalty for unfaithfulness.

Do you think this is the right balance or should infidelity be thought if as a moral wrong by others? We take a dim view of people parking badly but as a society do we hav we to he same default respinse to infideliity?

I know obviously people have personal responsibility but if you say have a male who grows up without a moral compass with regards to affairs and there is nothing in his personal circle to change isn't he in danger of thinking this is acceptable and women won't mind really (wasn't mentioned at school)
But why is it the responsibility of schools to do this?

PSHE is usually an hour lesson a week. 39 hours year, assuming no disruption for mock exams, trips, closures and other things. 39 hours to cover the range of topics for PSHE for that year group.

I don't buy the idea that 2-3 lessons in a PSHE lesson is more significant than the rest of a teenager's life and society as a whole.

"The dictionary definition of cruelty is to wilfully inflict suffering on others. Given that by embarking on an affair you know there is a realistic chance of inflicting suffering on your partner can't that be described as cruel and therefore abusive?"

Cheating, lying (all affairs involve this) Gaslighting, misuse of family money, risking a partners mental and physical health, denying their reality to make informed decisions or give sexual consent (many cake eating, unbeknownst to their OH) is all abuse and should be punishable in a court of law.

@LolaSmiles

is there anything incorrect with the statement 'infidelity can lead to people getting hurt'? I take your point about it being a hugely nuanced subject with a myriad of different scenarios but won't the same argument similarly apply to other contentious areas? I guess we cannot help (and maybe shouldn't judge) the many situations you describe but don't you have an opportunity to set at least a stall for a younger generation.

if we are looking at morality generally within HSE then should we mention contraception as there is a moral element there. Contraception may be mentioned in a different light in southern US States compared to here so are you in fact making a moral stance on this subject by even mentioning it?

I do take your point about infidelity not being in teachers remit but if it should be removed from all forms of public forum what does that leave us with? Is it then the responsibilities of individuals to form their own moral judegments?

Sadly the watering down of the divorce laws by removing adultery as instant grounds, making the waiting period (hell) even longer for the innocent party before applying, has removed any morality or stigma on the wayward spouse.

Marriage is a legal contract and should be treated as such. The innocent party should have legal redress, not be expected to just suck it up, mentally, physically and financially.

But it hasn't been removed from the public forum.
Most people still judge someone who has an affair and women are judged more harshly than men for it.

There's a big difference between considering something acceptable and wanting to wade in the middle of a situation between two adults.

Ultimately if two people choose to have an affair it isn't any of my business. I can think cheating is wrong, I can make a note of my impression of the situation (eg I'd view two people brazenly cheating at work very differently to a manager shagging an office junior who is being a bit naïve), but it really is between the adults concerned.

If my husband cheated I would still want people to treat him as they always would

Sure I wouldn't but he would only be chearlting on me no one else, it would ve no one elses business

Some people have open marriages but don't tall about it, we don't but I don't judge anyone who does

If I found out someone else was cheating I would still treat them the same, it would be none of my business

I judge serious things like child sexual abuse not sex between consenting adults

Obviously, we can’t have state sanctioned punishments for infidelity as then we wouldn’t have a free society. However I do think the damage it causes where dc are concerned can be far more far-reaching than people imagine. I always think you shouldn’t judge though because life is not black and white and sometimes people have affairs to extract themselves from intolerable situations. It’s not right or moral but people are frail sometimes.

It's a good question but my view is that the law should stay out of infidelity. Societies that punish it by law almost always punish the woman and usually are very oppressive in other ways as well on things like being gay and freedom of religion and speech.

Infidelity is at core a moral judgement and that is not only fluid but also dependent on where in society you are (it seems to be par for the course that French presidents have a mistress for example). Over the years I've seen many cases and while my general view is that it is not a good thing I've seen examples where it is more understandable than others

Infidelity is a massive spectrum of differing behaviour. But I don't think anyone has an understanding of the damage it causes until it happens to you. My ex was emotionally & mentally abuse to me every time I picked up on something, a gut feeling, a look, he chose to abuse me to cover his tracks. He was shagging at least 4 women behind my back, even a mum before he went to his sons football game. He wasn't in love with any of them, it was a sport he played at my expense. I dread to think of what lies he told them about me. My right of informed sexual consent was taken away, I doubt I will ever recover or trust a man again, I wouldn't be here were it not for my kids. How is that not a crime to do that to someone? To psychologically damage another person to cover up your shit behaviour? If you want to be a player do that as a single man & don't hurt & abuse innocent people. I can't do a thing about it, I'm meant to just get over it. It has destroyed me

To those that think infidelity isn't a moralistic is that because of the immense complexity of the issue but in some cases you would consider it amoral? For example if a couple's relationship had ended in effect (no intimacy, time, affection, possibly no young chikdren) and an affair happens that is different to a father with young children in an otherwise stable and happy relationship having sex with others to spice
up his sex life?

the quandary I have is that in the second example there in my opinion a definite' wronged' party and it seems like excuse making to talk about the complexities of relationships and the fact that there must always be relationship issues that lead to the affair i.e. 'no fault'. There is a devastated woman in the second case and there may be a sense an injustice has taken place and on one level there has to be consequence.

if we leave infidelity as no one else's business then does that not leave an enabling environment for others to do the same. If a man thought he could get away with an affair without social consequences and his spouse was not in a position to effectively apply for divorce will some men take that opportunity? We could argue someone taking drugs is none of our business but we have laws to protect people from the effects so as society we do make decisions on moral geounds. Infidelity may not be illegal but there are victims of people that suffer as a consequence of it and therefore is it not right to question the morality of it?

personally I think of when teaching about healthy and committed relationships viewing is a major ingredient for this and we shouldn't any away from stating this. It should not be viewed as a personal affront but a strong societal ideal for a number of reasons. It may not happen in reality but at least there is a social sense that fidelity is a virtue and conversely infidelity should be avoided.

woops.fidelity in the paragraph above.

I don't think any amount of social stigma stops infidelity.

Being unfaithful is partly about what feels good in the pants, the primal sexual urge.

I'd rather we concentrated on sorting out a fucked up system where rape and sexual assault are hardly prosecuted, rather than criminalising consenting adults. Especially when it would inevitably affect women disproportionately.

If the argument is that cheating causes harm and there must be a recourse for it, punishment or compensation, then all cheating causes harm. Cheating inside a marriage or outside a marriage. Cheating in a long term or a short term relationship, amongst teens and adults. There is no end to people who are hurt and therefore harmed. Why end here, why not seek recourse for being dumped or jilted?

There is no way we could introduce the social conditioning needed to create the condemnation the thought police want without creating a theocracy. Which are available worldwide for those who want to live that way.

Because there is no benefit to the punishment or to ritual humiliation. It won’t make the hurt go away. We tried all this and it didn’t work. All people can try for is revenge which is not a cure for hurt.

Love hurts and there are millennia of books, poems and songs to that effect. Most relationships end and the main cause is cheating. If you cannot live with that reality, stay single.

I really don’t get your point op.
Are you expecting teachers to take the responsibility for teaching morality? Seriously? If a child grows up with say a dad who shags around they will take that as their role model. Either they will think ‘yeah that’s the way to go,’ and follow suit, or ‘No I could never do the same as he did.’
Are you also implying that when a couple say their marriage vows to one another they are so thick that they don’t understand them?
I cannot believe this. The contract of marriage, whether religious or civil, clearly states that you will remain faithful to your husband or wife.
As for non married couples that is up to them to decide their boundaries. Some choose an open relationship others don’t. The same can also be said for married couples.

I don’t think anyone actively encourages adultery. Yet there simply isn’t the room to lock all cheaters away. As another poster stated we don’t lock enough rapists, sex offenders and peodophiles up and I’d much rather we concentrated on that.
I also think society as a whole needs to chill out. If someone is single and wants to have consensual sex with another adult then go right ahead. Seriously people need to mind their own business. There is far too much pressure on women to settle down and have children with the first available guy.

I also agree with the above poster. There is no benefit in revenge, none. Only time can heal.

OP how do you know what they are in a happy marriage?

Abusers are charming to other people and pretend their marriage is happy, but their spouse knows their marriage is unhappy.

Also not allowing someone to divorce you like in the case I cited and the famous case that helped push reform of England's divorce laws, will help lead to a spouse to being unfaithful because as far as they are concerned they are doing everything to show their marriage contract is no longer valid.

Why end here, why not seek recourse for being dumped or jilted?

Until 1970 a woman could sue for breach of promise, i.e woman whose fiance broke off their engagement could sue the man - interestingly it rarely happened the other way round. There was also the law of 'criminal conversation,' in which a man could sue another man for the breach of fidelity with his wife - abolished in 1857. Women, of course, couldn't sue for crim.con.

I really don't want to live in a society where my morals are policed to the extent the OP seems to want. In any case, society has changed far too much for there to be any chance of what s/he clearly would welcome becoming possible.

This thread reminds me of that long rambling one a few weeks ago about church, state and corona.

And let's face it, we all know that when someone says 'should we involve society in infidelity?' we all know whose behaviour would end up being policed, don't we?

Agree with the first paragraph. Anyone who says it's not immoral is so disingenuous. Is bullying also a moral grey area? Not really. There can be excuses but it's still wrong.

It doesn't matter if a couple is better off after a divorce, they can still divorce without somebody cheating! One person suffered completely unnecessary emotional pain.

Not sure it should be illegal, but maybe in some cases like STD transmission.

I agree with this and sorry about your horrible experience.

Marriage is a serious contract between two people. Enormous damage can result when one person betrays the other regularly over time, without the other’s consent, lying, demeaning, this is all a form of abuse.

@WandaWonder If my husband cheated I would still want people to treat him as they always would even if he’d cheated while you were pregnant, and risked the health of your unborn child with an STD?

Some people won't care how someone behaved. Some people will regard it as not their business. Some people will be horrified. How do you legislate for what people are meant to feel?

Emotional Abuse is a cycle and the key feature is that it happens again and again. Many cheating partners do this, cheat again and again, promise they will change when caught but repeat it.

Many cheating spouses will gaslight and emotionally abuse in order to cover their infidelity.

Non consenting sex includes having sex with someone who is not truthful about reasons that may change your mind about wanting to sleep with them. If you think your partner is faithful you might be willing to have sex, if you don’t you might not. A partner that lies so you will keep having sex with them is denying you autonomy of choice. Including whether you feel you might be at risk of an STD, or feel psychological harm when you realise that they might have bed hopped with an affair partner when you are also having sex with them.

Emotional Abuse includes:

Gaslighting: making you doubt your own feelings and thoughts, and even your sanity, by manipulating the truth.
Being manipulative at your expense.
Dismissing your feelings.
Being hyper-critical of you.
Betrayal, lying.
Neglect of the partner.

There are two levels aren’t there, and for me the most important is social acceptability more than legality. If there is zero accountability from social circles, for what can be quite a serious harm such as putting an unborn baby at risk or your partner at risk through an STD, then I think we are not supporting the victim as a society.

I think it should be viewed akin to bullying. I would absolutely expect friends and family to look down on my DH if he cheated on me, which I think is the most powerful way of positive change so he would not cheat again. If it’s all ‘just fine’ even if the wife or child were physically harmed, with zero judgement, I feel we are letting down those who were harmed.

I would absolutely expect friends and family to look down on my DH if he cheated on me, which I think is the most powerful way of positive change so he would not cheat again

So you want social disapproval/ostracism as a way of bringing about positive change. How is that not a form of abuse in itself? and how does it ensure he doesn't cheat again unless you have some form of penalty in place to ensure he doesn't?

If it’s all ‘just fine’ even if the wife or child were physically harmed, with zero judgement, I feel we are letting down those who were harmed

Then you'd have to define 'harmed.' My ex was an arse and the split was painful, not least because I didn't see it coming. Years down the line my life isn't materially as good without him but I'm a lot happier in many ways. I'd be very annoyed if someone decided on my behalf that I'd been harmed - and you can see from just this site that a lot of women say dumping the man was the best thing they ever did and that they and the DCs are much happier.