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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Is infidelity immoral and if so should society be involved or is it a strictly personal matter?

229 replies

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 17:28

Infidelity seems to be one of the few areas in life where psychological harm can be brought to bear against another. In some societies infidelity is viewed as a criminal act or at least viewed negatively.

In liberal societies infidelity is a strictly personal matter and society does not act as a stakeholder in the relationship with no civil penalty for unfaithfulness.

Do you think this is the right balance or should infidelity be thought if as a moral wrong by others? We take a dim view of people parking badly but as a society do we hav we to he same default respinse to infideliity?

OP posts:
Florissant · 04/02/2023 19:05

Konfetka · 04/02/2023 17:49

@Shesasuperfreak
Yes, I recall a US military commanding officer in Phnom Penh telling his married men that they would be written up for infidelity.

That's a military - not a social - issue and is standard advice in the US.

ExtraOnions · 04/02/2023 19:08

Why don’t we start stoning people whilst we are at it?

Craftycorvid · 04/02/2023 19:15

I think it would take some doing to construct infidelity itself as being coercive control, particularly as it is usually conducted in secret. I think it would have to include some extra degradation such as taunting one’s partner by flaunting what was happening whilst financially exploiting them in order to facilitate said affair. Something of that nature.

Twizbe · 04/02/2023 19:15

@workiskillingme well now we have the 2 year separation divorce where no one is at fault.

Back when this happened that wasn't the case. Plus, if the judge suspected this what the couple had done, he (as then it would always be a he) could refuse to grant the divorce.

SpringtimeCherries · 04/02/2023 19:33

I think cheating is a form of emotional abuse, particularly in a marriage with children. And something that I hope will be viewed more on those lines by both society, culturally and to a lesser extent the legal system.

I say that as I was cheated on whilst I was pregnant and with a young baby. It followed the same pattern as abuse, started in my pregnancy, and resulted in significant psychological harm.

Ex was sleeping with a number of women, high promiscuity, so whilst pregnant, unbeknown to me, as I was also sleeping with DH I was at high risk of a sexually transmitted disease, which is a huge risk to an unborn child.

As a mother to a newborn I was at my most vulnerable, and financially for the first time reliant on Ex, and he used that to increase his power through going out, wining and dining other women, hiding money from me, using his freedom to be entitled and therefore devaluing me as a mother. The result was that I felt completely unsupported, like I was going crazy, very alone, very low and demeaned. This has a direct impact on my ability to parent and I was I think at risk of post natal depression. Our child did suffer from having a frazzled, undermined mother, and a completely absent father. For the first years of our child’s life whenever he did have sole charge, I realised Ex was constantly texting other women.

I’ve looked into the research on cheating, and it’s interesting that the bullying, controlling or entitled male who is in a perfectly OK marriage, is the likely person to cheat. Not, as people may often think, usually because the marriage is in trouble on both sides. It’s misogyny.

So yes, I’d say its destructive power in a family unit, particularly for new mother’s in a marriage is really minimised.

SpringtimeCherries · 04/02/2023 19:40

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 18:32

I mean I doubt it would ever get to court but it shows that on a theoretical basis there may be some legal issues if it was deemed cruel behaviour?

Yes I do think it should be given more weight. It is absolutely cruel behaviour. I was being ostracised from our friends (because Ex was making out that I was controlling), I was feeling that there was something wrong with me. Gas lighting from cheating husbands is not rare, it’s the norm, and it’s very psychologically damaging and cruel. You don’t have to know that cheating is going on to feel the effects. I ended up seeing a domestic abuse center because of financial abuse, I was having to justify spending every penny, and they said that it was very common that cheating was also involved.

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 19:41

I don't at all advocate the barbarism in countries like Iran. I was making the point that in some cultures infidelity is viewed in a very din light (again the punishments are mediaeval).

Don't people have a sense of injustice though when cheated on? Some will view themselves as a victim of a cheater and I guess some of the feelings are akin to violation (though on an emotional level).

With woman often penalised as a result of a partners infidelity through diminished finances, house sales, being the dominant child carer etc isn't is natural for the consequences of infidelity to be considered?

Children have PHSE lessons where they are taught about a number of aspects of relationships but as far as I am aware infidelity is not taught as an unambiguous wrong. This may be the right approach but doesn't that leave infidelity as just one aspect of the ups and downs of a relationship rather than something larger?

OP posts:
aSofaNearYou · 04/02/2023 19:45

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 19:41

I don't at all advocate the barbarism in countries like Iran. I was making the point that in some cultures infidelity is viewed in a very din light (again the punishments are mediaeval).

Don't people have a sense of injustice though when cheated on? Some will view themselves as a victim of a cheater and I guess some of the feelings are akin to violation (though on an emotional level).

With woman often penalised as a result of a partners infidelity through diminished finances, house sales, being the dominant child carer etc isn't is natural for the consequences of infidelity to be considered?

Children have PHSE lessons where they are taught about a number of aspects of relationships but as far as I am aware infidelity is not taught as an unambiguous wrong. This may be the right approach but doesn't that leave infidelity as just one aspect of the ups and downs of a relationship rather than something larger?

Behaviour being upsetting and unkind does not make it abusive or criminal. You can be the victim of someone just being a colossal dick to you, it doesn't make that action something that should be illegal. Emotionally upsetting does not = criminal.

And women are not forced to go through all of the things you have listed because of infidelity, they're forced to go through it because of divorce/separation.

thestealthwee · 04/02/2023 19:47

Since when has infidelity not been morally wrong? It's always been morally wrong I thought? I'm not particularly religious and I find cheating abhorrent

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 21:13

@aSofaNearYou

Thought provoking post ...

The dictionary definition of cruelty is to wilfully inflict suffering on others. Given that by embarking on an affair you know there is a realistic chance of inflicting suffering on your partner can't that be described as cruel and therefore abusive?

Coercive control encompasses a lot of behaviour but avoids infidelity in its scope. However if a woman is unable to leave a partner due to social or financial reasons who is unfaithful aren't they on reality being coerced to stay in a relationship they want to abandon?

OP posts:
mids2019 · 04/02/2023 21:18

@thestealthwee

Many may view infidelity as just a part of the extremely complex path of mature raltionships so I don't think it's a given that all of society takes the view it is morally repugnant.

I mentioned PHSE lessons before and certainly infidelity is not a subject of relationship education There is no educational pronouncement that infidelity is wrong and it's left to individual morality.

OP posts:
LauraNicolaides · 04/02/2023 21:26

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 17:28

Infidelity seems to be one of the few areas in life where psychological harm can be brought to bear against another. In some societies infidelity is viewed as a criminal act or at least viewed negatively.

In liberal societies infidelity is a strictly personal matter and society does not act as a stakeholder in the relationship with no civil penalty for unfaithfulness.

Do you think this is the right balance or should infidelity be thought if as a moral wrong by others? We take a dim view of people parking badly but as a society do we hav we to he same default respinse to infideliity?

What "civil penalties" would you think of imposing? Who acts as judge to decide who is in the wrong?

Adultery is already a ground for divorce. I can't think what else you mean. Ducking stools? Stonings?

Beyond the law withdrawing the special status which it grants the relationship it's a personal matter.

JenniferBooth · 04/02/2023 21:28

OP Do you think that society should be involved when other marriage vows are broken or is it only the promising to be faithful one.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 21:45

There is no educational pronouncement that infidelity is wrong and it's left to individual morality.

I don't have a problem with that. Far better than that the state should get involved with morals.

Reugny · 04/02/2023 21:45

OP your thinking is very black and white.

In my 20s I met a woman whose ex-husband refused to allow her to divorce him. She then proceeded to have 2 children with a different man and eventually managed to get a divorce under 5 years separation. However her ex-husband would only agree the date of their separation from when she conceived her first child even though they had lived separately before then. He used the nature of their jobs meaning they could be separated for long periods as the reason why they hadn't officially split up.

Since then I've met many more couples who split up and only bothered getting divorced when one found a serious partner, as well as a few like that previous woman.

All these people cheated on their spouses as they were married.

aSofaNearYou · 04/02/2023 22:01

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 21:13

@aSofaNearYou

Thought provoking post ...

The dictionary definition of cruelty is to wilfully inflict suffering on others. Given that by embarking on an affair you know there is a realistic chance of inflicting suffering on your partner can't that be described as cruel and therefore abusive?

Coercive control encompasses a lot of behaviour but avoids infidelity in its scope. However if a woman is unable to leave a partner due to social or financial reasons who is unfaithful aren't they on reality being coerced to stay in a relationship they want to abandon?

So many things in life are cruel without being criminal, though. Breaking someone's heart in any way will always be hurtful - telling your spouse you think they've gone to seed and no longer love them, for example, is cruel - but we simply can't involve the law.

And if a woman is trapped in a relationship for financial reasons then it's that part that's coercive control, not the thing that's causing her to want to leave, that's immaterial really.

pointythings · 04/02/2023 22:05

A purely practical problem with penalising infidelity is precisely the one outlined above. An example is the issue of Jewish men who refuse to give their wife a get - a Jewish divorce. The women this happens to are not free to enter into another, better relationship. Anything they do is technically a matter of infidelity - because their husbands are holding them hostage.

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 22:20

@JenniferBooth

The state does get involved when it comes to a divorce settlement and child access at times through our courts.

I get what your saying in that of course relat.ionships are extremely complex; it's part of the human condition. I would say to some extent infidelity seems to be one area of relationships which instantly evokes a visceral reaction and likely ends in separation. (I am not discounting other relationship difficulties)

With infidelity there is often an aggrieved partner and I think they may wish to feel there is a kind of justice to be gained from the other's behaviour.

OP posts:
Oopsiedaisyy · 04/02/2023 22:26

You do realise women cheat at the same rate as men? We are just better at it and often for different reasons, to leave a marriage for example.

If infidelity became something to be actively brought into divorce proceedings and the "bad" spouse recieiving less in a settlement because of it, then surely they would have the right to highlight the reasons why they cheated in the first place? Lack of intimacy, affection, trying not to break up a family...

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 22:26

@pointy
@pointythings

Should education in any way teach moral values?

It's an interesting question given that it makes sense for schools to veer away from moral issues where in a pluralistic society we may all have different moral standards.

It does leave questions about religious education and PHSE which impinge on the moral sphere.

Should schools leave PHSE alone?

OP posts:
microbius · 04/02/2023 22:33

A husband can betray a wife in so many ways! (and vice versa) My ex wasn't unfaithful to me but in my opinion what he did was far far worse. Some people "cheat" when things are already completely broken. There are billions of scenarios here

mids2019 · 04/02/2023 22:34

@Oopsiedaisyy

It's a really complex question. I guess your saying there maybe motivations for affairs and while I agree does this not lead to excuse making? (Well we were having arguments and that suddenly made Janet my work colleague so much more attractive).

I dont think there is ever a good or bad spouse and yes life is never back or white However is there an argument to disincentivise infidelity as that really can shatter any hopes of keeping a marriage together?

OP posts:
DuckonaBike · 04/02/2023 22:36

Good question about whether schools should teach moral values - IMO yes they should, it’s an important part of education. There are areas where people have different opinions but these can provoke interesting discussion.

Eleganz makes a good point about how people are just expected to just get over being betrayed and move on. This must be incredibly painful, especially if there are children involved and you have to let them go and spend time with the person who betrayed you and their new partner. I’m actually shocked by how much people are just expected to accept this. I’ve never been in this situation myself BTW, it’s just something I’ve observed.

JenniferBooth · 04/02/2023 22:38

Lack of intimacy, affection

Exactly. Why is it that society should be involved (according to the OP) in one vow being broken but not the other.

In this months Woman and Home a woman talks about how her husband came out as gay when she was 40 And how she realised why their sex life had been "clunky" Should society get involved in his deception OP.

Oopsiedaisyy · 04/02/2023 22:39

Tbh I'm not sure keeping marriages together should be the goal, often they stay together for the wrong reasons driven by lack of financial independence or some sense that we are failing our children. Perhaps marriage only worked when we all died in our 30s, perhaps it would be better to view relationships as having a season, and naturally coming to an end for many of us.

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