Is infidelity immoral and if so should society be involved or is it a strictly personal matter?

[mids2019]

Infidelity seems to be one of the few areas in life where psychological harm can be brought to bear against another. In some societies infidelity is viewed as a criminal act or at least viewed negatively.

In liberal societies infidelity is a strictly personal matter and society does not act as a stakeholder in the relationship with no civil penalty for unfaithfulness.

Do you think this is the right balance or should infidelity be thought if as a moral wrong by others? We take a dim view of people parking badly but as a society do we hav we to he same default respinse to infideliity?

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain Yes of course I’d want society to disapprove of harmful behaviour. Why wouldn’t you?

Dumping a man has nothing to do with it. That’s your choice surely and if it’s great, well great!

But bullying, lying, cheating, these are all harmful behaviours on other people. Of course we cannot stop people bullying, lying or cheating. But we don’t provide an acceptable bedrock for them, by as a society turning a blind eye. Societal approval is very powerful, when it breaks down bad things happen.

Even kids know this. They know lying is bad. We teach them. They know being mean to other people is bad. They know that friendships, relationships are built on being kind, truthful, having boundaries. It’s simple really.

Who people sleep with and how many is private as long as those people are consenting adults. Who is anybody to tell me who I can sleep with? Or what should happen if my DH has a quick shag with a colleague. Surely that's between us.

If I get married - that is a contract and there are consequence for breaching it - usually financial. If I choose NOT to get married and NOT legally promise "forsaking all others" then that's my choice.

At what point am I then "cheating"? - After a one night stand? A week? A month? A year? Just because he said I couldn't "sleep around"? Just because she gets jealous?? Can I finish it sleep with another - and then go back - or is it cheating twice over?

Take sex out of the equation altogether. We are not naturally monogamous.
Make a contract for finances and property and ensure children are protected in law - but sex is private.

@CherriesSpring it seems to me that you are arguing for an increase in stigma. I find that troubling, because in the past the stigma of relationship breakup always fell on women, far more than on men. What practical steps do you envisage to prevent that from happening again?

And then of course if we all go back to the horrific judgy ways of the past, the impact on people's mental health will be devastating.

Overall it worries me that so many people on this thread think there is a place for a formal or informal 'morality police' - if you look at the way authoritarian regimes are developing in places all over the world, it's troubling that so many people on here think this is a good thing. It isn't.

Some people get off on policing others. We saw that during the lockdowns and restrictions.

Good point! I knew that this discussion reminded me of something ...

Monogamy is what most people implicitly expect when they are in an established relationship or get married. Even when an open relationship is on the table it does seem to be rare that both partners are equally on board with negotiating this - it's often more of a compromise that one partner gets to experiment and the other tolerates it for the other elements that the relationship provides.

The notion of 'abuse' comes from lack of mutual consent - which applies to 'infidelity' as much as any other scenario where trust is broken. It's also a very individual matter - some people want to be made aware of their (non-negotiated) partner's infidelity and others absolutely do not.

I also think there are many moral wrongs harmful to others but not punishable by law that should be - tax avoidance for example! But because of infidelity's private nature and the individual's response it should not hold a civil penalty.

@NearlyMidnight and @pointythings and @LauraNicolaides and @JenniferBooth
Most of they way that we avoid and minimise harm to other people is social, what we know is right and wrong. It is mainly extremes when it is a ‘police matter’ or a question of authority.

And cheating is harmful, because it is without that person’s consent. You can sleep with whoever you like in a marriage. But if you lie to your partner, you harm them.

And an unborn baby who is exposed to STIs? How can anyone possibly say that is not a moral wrong and would not judge a man who cheated while his wife was pregnant?

And it is men on the whole who have the most to gain from not being judged by cheating. They are even considered ‘virile’ and well ‘it’s not in their DNA to be monogamous’ and all that misogynist BS. It’s women who are more vulnerable with kids and at home, less opportunity to cheat, and more consequences socially if they do.

Once we used to see domestic violence as ‘none of our business’ and not to judge. Hopefully we are a bit more evolved.

@CherriesSpring I think cheating is already judged. What we don't need is to have that judgement coded into law, because that will go wrong. For women, not for men.

But how do you judge harm?? Because I say so? Because he says so? Maybe I judge Mrs X or Mr Y for divorcing - we know that causes harm. Or Mr Z and Mrs W for staying together when clearly unhappy- we know that causes harm. And Ms Q, unmarried, eight months pregnant for LTB - because it's "not how she thought it would be"??? Potential harm there???

And many people are happier after a relationship ends. And cheating is often the catalyst. Especially if it's an emotional affair - followed by a brief period of sex before one party has the courage to go.

No-one can judge the "harm" in someone else's marriage or what exactly caused it. Leaving? Not leaving? Having more kids? Having kids with men you've known five minutes? Blending families (that's a huge cause of harm)? Infidelity - maybe it depends, (a shag while on a business trip - no worries - a ten year affair not keen). An open marriage? Polygamy?? Arranged marriages???

And the harm? Depression, anxiety, sadness? How to measure?

And then how do you punish that? £1000 for each affair? Six months in jail for each month of illicit sex? Being "shunned"? Double for each child affected? Half if the spouses are same sex? Half if she or he "deserved it"?? FFS

I truly hope that we never live in a country where who we sleep with and how and when we sleep with them becomes something we have to be frightened about. We have worked and fought a long time for that not to be the case.

@NearlyMidnight 👏👏👏

Overall it worries me that so many people on this thread think there is a place for a formal or informal 'morality police' - if you look at the way authoritarian regimes are developing in places all over the world, it's troubling that so many people on here think this is a good thing. It isn't.
Agree with this. It feels very much like the thin end of the wedge.

Should we really be inviting the state into the bedrooms of consenting adults?

@CherriesSpring what about someone who refuses to even touch or hug their partner for many years (im not talking about the temporary cessation of sex due to childbirth) but then still expects them to remain faithful.

The examples of infidelity being used as a weapon in emotional abuse and coercive control are recognised. Along with many other things, like love bombing and excessive affection. Both these forms of abuse are unlawful and illegal. Our societal efforts should focus on helping these real victims.

There is no benefit to society or anybody to make it less likely that someone would be tested for an std and would cooperate with notification processes or reporting. It would be impossible to limit liability for infecting someone in any circumstance. Therefore people would not get tested.

In terms of this punishing or stigmatising people for cheating this happened in the past and it is regressive not progressive. It didn’t improve life for children women or men. Reviews and legislation in relation to divorce have progressively removed blame and anything that leads to unnecessary acrimony. But ultimately it would be impact on children that would be relevant. Punishing or stigmatising a parent isn’t in their interest.

@LolaSmiles · Today 17:47
(Quoting and adding to... )
Overall it worries me that so many people on this thread think there is a place for a formal or informal 'morality police' - if you look at the way authoritarian regimes are developing in places all over the world, it's troubling that so many people on here think this is a good thing. It isn't.

Agree with this. It feels very much like the thin end of the wedge.
Should we really be inviting the state into the bedrooms of consenting adults

It's a horrible thought. Can you imagine shaming women for being too friendly with their boss? Or having an inquisition because a woman was "seen" with a man (so must have been cheating)? And having to prove you didn't have sex with your personal trainer, (How??) ?

What next stoning???

It would be up to me to judge him, do you really think law should be used to judge people?

I don't mean for crimes I mean judgement

You can introduce all the legal penalties and social opprobrium you like. It won't make your husband love you.

As PPs have said, when the state interferes in consensual adult sex, it's always women who come off worse. If you could somehow remove all the risk from the complex mess that is human relationships, love and sex, you'd be very very rich. You'd also kill off art and personal growth.

If you really want to live somewhere where people (women) are punished for having consensual adult sex that goes against some people's personal codes of ethics, such places exist. Knock yourself out. God knows they'll be happy to do it for you.

Society should absolutely not be involved, nor should any measures to support informal ostracisation or other sanctions be encouraged. Whenever historically this has been the case, it's invariably been to the severe detriment of women. Making a few cheating men feel superficially uncomfortable isn't worth a return to that.

Moving away from criminality (there are plenty of good arguments why legislation is not helpful here) the question still remains whether infidelity should be regarded as a moral wrong and people should not be averse to stating it if they believe it wrong.

I would say maybe the state or at least society does have a say in relationships in that if we look at domestic violence and other marital abuse law the state does have an interest. In fact health care workers are professionally obligated to look for and report signs of abuse. Infidelity can cause a separation of parents into different households and psychological damage to children. It will be therefore up to society to deal with the result of this.

I don't think we should think of ourselves as Afghanistan if we do debate the morality of infidelity. I think there are positives for women and girls to unambiguously say that for a healthy committed relationship fidelity is important and women (also men) are well within their rights to move on if infidelity occurs.

the question still remains whether infidelity should be regarded as a moral wrong and people should not be averse to stating it if they believe it wrong.

Most people do think it is wrong and there is no pressure not to be able to say it. Having a nuanced view of it in some cases and not considering it always to be the sign of an evil and irredeemable person, no matter what the circumstances, doesn't mean you don't think it's wrong.

But people are not required to think it is a moral wrong. They are not required to have committed or monogamous relationships. If you want a committed, monogamous relationship with legal consequences should your partner stray, you can get married if you both agree, and you can dissolve the contract and split the assets if your partner breaks the contract.

But be aware that fidelity is only one term of the contract and only one of the vows that traditionally go alongside it.

I think there are positives for women and girls to unambiguously say that for a healthy committed relationship fidelity is important and women (also men) are well within their rights to move on if infidelity occurs.

I don't think many people believe that women shouldn't be allowed to end relationships with cheaters. In fact, the places that would force them to stay are the places where the state polices sexuality.

Moving away from criminality (there are plenty of good arguments why legislation is not helpful here) the question still remains whether infidelity should be regarded as a moral wrong and people should not be averse to stating it if they believe it wrong.

You'd have to be pretty sun to think that betraying your partner's trust, lying, emotionally manipulating, putting their health at risk and generally crippling their self esteem and mental health isn't immoral. You can fix or leave a relationship without putting somebody through that.

But it won't be long before those people come along anyway

Dim, not sun🫣🫣

Infidelity can cause a separation of parents into different households and psychological damage to children.

So can the end of any relationship between parents, whatever the reason.

@ReneBumsWombats

I agree that relationships are infinitely nuanced but I don't think stating infidelity as wrong means those that commit infidelity are evil or irredeemable. However as you say most people think it's wrong so are we already I t he track of saying that in reality the moral judgment is already there?

It hint he idea of contractual obligations in a relationship is an interesting debate but some do not get married but surely those involved in cohabitation including children deserve to have at least an expectation that fidelity is maintained?

if we do have HSE in schools and part of the curriculum is to define what is important and healthy in a commuter relationship should we just reiterate that infidelity is definitely a barrier to this? Maybe in some cases women do need to feel empowered to think that infidelity does morally allow them a very good reason to leave?

@ReneBumsWombats

Divorce can happen for a number of reasons but infidelity does seem a particularly devastating grenade in any relationship.