Manosphere put me off men and sex (although I have healthy sex drive and desire a relationship)

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I'm not asking for advice here, I just wondered if I'm the only one who feels this way, I suspect I'm not.

Men show interest in me romantically/sexually and although I don't have any ill feelings towards men (just some men's behaviour towards us) and don't wish to see them suffer, I'm terrified to ever date or have sex with a man again and feel many of them enjoy seeing women suffer. I have a healthy sex drive and the idea of a relationship is nice theoretically, but after discovering ex-husband was into manosphere and as a result became emotionally abusive, I've research all this stuff and combined with my past experiences with men, I am terrified to ever date or even have sex again.

The thought of co-habiting with a man, being financially tied (combined finances) to one and having a baby with a man, is absolutely out of the question for me now, the thought of it fills me with terror. I feel like I have some kind of ptsd or stress disorder from everything. I feel like it's all a trap and scares me, the ones that scare me most of all are the wolf in sheeps clothing, like my ex husband. I really don't trust my judgement anymore, I was supportive of him and his career, split finances 50/50, it was a very egalitarian relationship, I was affectionate, kind, so it's been hard to get my head around the way he treated me.

I've been following posts on MN a while now and after reading this today:
medium.com/@ossiana.tepfenhart/75-percent-of-tinder-users-are-now-men-why-are-guys-shocked-95c3cd11c97f
and also how some women are breaking up with boyfriends over Andrew Tate, just wanted to share my experience and if any other women out there feel the same and sick of the abuse, your not alone.

Do you think men realise it's abuse? Surely they must, I read one married redpill post once, where the man announced his wife as being diagnosed with cancer, so he's going to stop implementing redpill on her and other men replying saying, yeah understandable and in agreement, like wtf? I have to get cancer to no longer deserve being abused. I was having panic attacks and waking up with night sweats/terrors, nearly lost my marbles, from the games, gaslighting and abuse with my ex. It's all just so fucked up, I'm lucky I got myself settled and a nice little peaceful life for myself and just enjoy work, hobbies and seeing friends now, I talk to men at work and don't hold any grudge against them individually, but sometimes my hands tremble around men. I feel so sad for not only women, but despite everything, I still feel sad for men too, that it has come to this.

Oh I know.

My boyfriend was bemused because he'd bought it because he thought I'd like it and would make me smile not because he thought it would 'work' in any way. Although, it did make me smile so maybe it did 'work'! In that respect 🤣

But yes the seeing women as a homogenous group, a secret to be unlocked a single organic and separate species is definitely a thing with some men.

Tbh, my personal.experience has been similar to yours.

My boyfriend's female friends are all women he's known for a long time, the wives of his old friends or old school friends themselves. He doesn't make new female friends. I've seen some of his message exchanges between them (because he's shown me) they are infrequent and nothing more than matey chit chat. They've all been lovely to me when we've met. There's no overstepping boundaries, no flirting, no nothing. He doesn't message them often and he never meets up with any of them alone. But, tbh, I wouldn't mind if he did. I haven't felt that way about all boyfriend's and their female friends though. Which is largely why this one is sticking around 😉

As for friend, he doesn't want those things specifically. Although he does want sex. But only in the confines of a loving relationship. He wants to be loved more than anything.

I feel your pain.
I fall into the Manosphere/incel black hole every few months and have to work hard then to not be fearful or wary of every man that I encounter!

I have been on MN for years and have spent a lot of time in feminist echo chamber threads where there is absolutely no looking at something from an ulterior perspective. The whole ‘what about the menz’ comeback that is used to mock anyone that looks at anything from a man’s perspective is exactly why Andrew Tate is popular.

i got disillusioned by the whole feminist argument because I’d see in a thread that a woman has a bad day and gets into a row with her DH and then he retaliates with something and it’s instantly LTB.

‘she’ was always allowed to have a bad day. ‘He’ was always a misogynistic pig.

it’s just double standards.

you do realise there is a thread running right now on MN about menopausal women hating their men at certain times of the month with one or two fantasising about burying him under the patio. I’m guessing manosphere is the male equivalent - hormones out of control and hitting out at the opposite sex but in male language, which of course is stronger than female language. And is not tolerated.

Could it be a question of semantics in that the sentiment is the same on the whole, but because men are saying it it’s taken as a form of gate speech.

Only just shutting down mens views with tripe like ‘oh a man has entered the room everyone’ is exactly why we are at this point.

women need women only spaces and men need theirs too. Trouble is all the usual men’s spaces, where they learn from their peers have been taken away from them in the band if gender equality,

Any counter argument to the ‘toxic masculinity’ debate has been shut down so men have nowhere to go to talk about what it is to be a man. So they go online. And see what’s happened.

all this ‘it’s ok to punch up but not down’ culture is doing the damage as it’s creating an environment of double standards.

but taking away the male voice is why we are here. You might not want to hear what men have to say but it’s not going to help ignoring their voices and dictating to them or ridiculing them.

It simply is not going to happen that the vast majority of them are going to wake up, acknowledge their privilege and start championing women’s rights because - and this is going to hurt - it’s counterproductive to their own need to have as much sex with women as possible.

men want women to be subservient.

they need women to be subservient as much as we need men to be supportive.

so forget it. The vast majority of men will function in a way that society dictates on the outside but continue to harbour their sexist views where they can. Unless they have an outlet.

And no I don’t believe that women should therefore give in in order to placate them, before you bite my head off. I’m a complete believer in equality.

Which is why I realise that we’re not going to get it by marginalising men, cancelling them, competing with them, ridiculing them or ghosting them.

quite the opposite.

so stop throwing the misogyny word at anyone who gives an alternative view to the narrow parameters of your ideology.

men are people with their own problems, fears, insecurities and ‘lived experiences’. They have a lot of pressure put on them too.

Women making comments about hating their husbands and wanting to bury them is not on, I agree there. To me, a significant difference between men and women making those comments is intent though, men statistically are much more likely to act on those feelings, two women are killed each week by domestic violence each week. An angry, rage filled man is much more intimidating and threatening than a woman with the same feelings. Does not make one better than the other, just explains why there is often a more visceral reaction to men making those comments than women, it is genuine fear.

Also, I do not understand all of this 'men do not have an outlet' stuff. If a man is struggling with his mental health, he has just as much access to mental health support as a woman does, in fact, having worked in mental health in the past they take men's mental health much more seriously, there is no telling men to 'man up'. If teenage boy is struggling at school, they have teachers and mental health support. Boys and men are actively encouraged to talk about their well-being, just take one look on LinkedIn, the ammount of workshops, drop-in sessions that a ran for encouraging men to talk about their well-being.

Women go to other women for emotional support, men go to some women for emotional support. Men rarely go to other men for emotional support - but somehow that is a problem caused by feminism? Isn't that a man's problem?

Women definitely aren't the ones creating unsafe environments for men to express their emotional sides.

Feminism is not an either-or deal, your argument is making it out that because women want equal rights, to be respected, to not be expected to be subservient, to be able to enjoy sex and independence, that it is harming what it is to be a man somehow? When to me, the issues you raised seems to be issues caused by fellow men, not women.

Haven't read the whole thread, but I can sympathise, OP. I suspect I may be on the spectrum too, and if that's the case for you, you have probably been a bad judge of character and not spotted the red flags early enough in the past. You of course don't have to have a relationship, and can work on other ways to make yourself happy. The last time I tried dating was before the pandemic and I kept coming across men like this, who would spout abusive generalisations about women, try to neg me etc. It's so dull above anything else, and at least I've learned to spot these red flags now - that's one way to look at it, now you know about this stuff you protect yourself better. I'm sure there are good men out there, but yes, even if not 'manosphere' types, there's still a lot of ingrained misogyny in both women and men that can make getting into a relationship feel like a risk not worth taking. I'm the opposite of how I was in the past, the slightest sign of a red flag and I won't pursue things any further. I'd definitely avoid dating websites (that medium post linked on the first page I found was spot on), a lot of men on there are playing away, just enjoying practising their abusive techniques, being self-indulgent or sadistic. It's a cess-pit. Much better to meet people through shared interests and get to know people very very slowly.

Which is why i pointed out in an earlier thread that the biggest problem women - and society - has is addressing male violence against women.

Solve this solve the problem.

when I refer to make spaces, I do not mean in a therapeutic capacity. Talking through issues is not how men generally roll. I am referring to the traditional men’s only clubs and societies that used to be in abundance. Men used to have pubs and football at which to ‘be men’ and these are now inclusive spaces. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but SOME men need places to go to learn off other men how to be men. traditionally these types of places were where they got put into place by father figures and found role models.

we need to teach men that being a ‘real’ man doesn’t involve being emasculated but it also doesn’t mean dominating or hurting women.

and it’s important that we get it right because like it or lump it women need men as much as men need women.

we need each other.

I cannot say I agree that men only spaces are needed for men to be men. These men only clubs, working man clubs that were big in the past were incredibly toxic. I live in a mining town in the northeast, there are still a few in existence, it is full of men leering over bar maids, sexist conversation, belittling their wives at home, racism, and very much a feeling of men trying to one up each other on who can be the most rowdy and brutish. I recently went to an event where some local football teams were accepting awards, when a girl went to accept an award, the table of men sniggered. These do not seem empowering spaces for men just places for men to validate their misogyny and get cheered for it.

If the topics men are speaking about are not appropriate for women to hear or be exposed to, then what is being discussed is damaging and offensive.

Men need to be taught the same as women, to be decent people. You don't teach girls 'what it means to be a woman', so why should men have the same? Again, these messages seem to come from men not women, women just want their sons to be happy, they don't care where on the spectrum of manlyness they are.

As long as a man is respectful, nonviolent, respects women, is happy in his identity and a nice person, why does it matter if he is a manly man or if he is a reserved man, or a man who identifies with more typically feminine qualities?

My father is not a manly man, he grew up mostly around a feminine influence, and I would class him as a great man, someone who has just enjoyed his life and not worried about how much of a man he is, because really, it does not matter. Same with my partner.

Mixed spaces encourage men to find their place and what is most comfortable for them, telling men they must learn from other men in 'manly' settings is just repressing them. And any teachings men are receiving from other men that cannot heard or seen by women, will not be positive.

You are probably right. And thank you for your very measured posts. I do not want to come across as the ambassador for toxic masculinity. I abhor the ‘boys club’ mentality as much as anyone. I just wanted to point out that Andrew Tate is perhaps filling the void for something society is not currently providing men. And that perhaps most are simply venting, like women vent. And they need a place to do that.

i would urge anyone feeling like OP to get out there and date. There are many lovely men out there. Women have a tempering affect on men and we need to be with each other. Online behaviour is often not representative of the individual.

go out there, find an Andrew Tate fan, and change his mind!!

go out there, find an Andrew Tate fan, and change his mind!!
This is terrible advice. Women are not support humans, there to serve men and work on them as projects so that they can become decent human beings. Guess what, many of us have already tried this and ended up in abusive relationships! Enough women do this already, it's socialised into us that we need to forgive the most disgusting behaviour because 'boys will be boys'. If you want to date, OP, and only if, only do so with men who show women respect from the very start.

men are people with their own problems, fears, insecurities and ‘lived experiences’. They have a lot of pressure put on them too

My God.....really. No one would ever guess that!!

Please read your sentences again. Did you really have to point this out??

This is what irritates me about people like you. You say this as if women are totally thick and unaware that men have a hard time too.

The whole ‘what about the menz’ comeback that is used to mock anyone that looks at anything from a man’s perspective is exactly why Andrew Tate is popular

women need women only spaces and men need theirs too. Trouble is all the usual men’s spaces, where they learn from their peers have been taken away from them in the band if gender equality

Please outline what these spaces are and who has taken them away? They are certainly not short of them online. In your ideal world, could you outline exactly what spaces you would like to reserve for men?

There are lots of things that look at things from a man's perspective @Mezmer . Men's voices have mainly been the dominant voices for centuries in literature and the arts generally. There's plenty of films and games that cater to the male gaze too and online forums where they are free to chat for hours if they want about their lives.

However, this is clearly not enough, because many of them feel the need to also step into a women's forums and megaphone at us variations of BUT WHAT ABOUT MEN??' This is as utterly tone-deaf as a woman going onto a thread about prostate cancer or similar and going 'BUT WHAT ABOUT WOMEN'S BREAST CANCER??!!'.

This may not be your intention, but the purpose of men coming here to point out men's suffering is to shut women down and draw attention away from our issues to theirs. It's a massive 'BUT WHAT ABOUT MEEEEEE'.

It's meant to silence us by making us feel like there is no corner we can go to where a man won't 'educate' us on the male's perspective. The intention is to make sure we can't speak about life from a woman's perspective without also considering men's perspective. Every. Single. Time. The attempt to draw equivalence on certain topics is also highly insensitive, as there often is none.

You might not want to hear what men have to say but it’s not going to help ignoring their voices and dictating to them or ridiculing them

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” - Margaret Atwood

two women are killed each week by domestic violence each week

But what about the men??? @123ROLOThey are suffering too! Just ask @Mezmer

Oh and so the pile on. I was comfortable talking to 123ROLO and debating with her (if they are indeed a her) but of course it always goes the same way when someone dares voice a contrary view.

how predictable.

im well aware of the stats thank you. Which is why I have SAID CONSTANTLY on this thread that male physical violence against women is the issue we should all be focusing on and perhaps, just perhaps, trying to understand why men feel the way they do about women - rather than just keep them isolated and marginalised as freaks - is the only way to make things better.

but no. You lot just stick in your echo chamber and throw mud at men in their echo chamber and they will throw back harder. And things will not get worse.

@Mezmer
Excellent post.

Which is why I have SAID CONSTANTLY on this thread that male physical violence against women is the issue we should all be focusing on
How do you suggest that your advice "go out there, find an Andrew Tate fan, and change his mind!!" is going to stop violence against women? This is really dangerous advice, telling a vulnerable, possibly autistic woman who has been in an abusive relationship to date another abusive man and try to 'cure' him - by subjecting herself to his abuse and having Mother Teresa levels of selflessness, apparently. It beggars belief. What on Earth would the OP gain from this anyway? A relationship is supposed to be enjoyable and mutually respectful 2-way affair, not a therapeutic, unpaid role for women to suffer the abuse of men in the vain hope that they will 'change their minds' about hating women. It's this kind of thinking that causes women to stay in abusive, domestic violence situations. Oh, he didn't mean it, he's just a wounded little bird really, that's why he beats the shit out of me. Jesus Christ.

I’m not sure what % of men are right wing women hating tossers but I beg people to stop hand-wringing and read how Andrew Tate got shamed and arrested for people trafficking due to Greta Thunberg. Take heart and stay 💪 strong www.nme.com/news/andrew-tate-reportedly-arrested-human-trafficking-greta-thunberg-rant-3372461

If you hang around on this forum enough you will believe most men are terrible.

If you believe the views of mumsnet are the views of most women you will believe that women hate men just as much.

Outside of this are well balanced people that accept that in some respects life is harder for men and in others it's harder for women. These people will often have strong role models from the opposite sex or children of the opposite sex to themselves.

The reason echo Chambers exist, in my view, is that reasonable debate gets drowned out so it gets left to the more extreme on both sides. As the moderates wont engage as it's not worth the bother.

Really good points here.

I’ll also add/elaborate that we are living in a time of pretty extraordinary isolation, societal alienation and deracination. People in general are looking to electronic media to find context and meaning to their lives which are already so colonised by electronic media. Rampant capitalism has commodified almost every aspect of our lives, it has now managed to wheedle its way into our minds. I’m not even talking about endemic misogyny or the manosphere in particular. It’s everything. Age old and seemingly intractable problems, such as the war of the sexes, aren’t seen as something to have adult conversations about, because that doesn’t sell. They’re seen as opportunities to sell tripe, cod philosophy, pseudoscience and clickbait advertising off the backs of alienated and thus vulnerable people.

@Mezmer I suppose it might be convenient for you to assume that I only inhabit an echo chamber. It invalidates my opinions and you can brush them aside.

However, Mumsnet is not the only space where I spend my time. I'm actually very well acquainted and educated on online spaces and personalities which are male dominated. I listen to a lot of content I do not agree with, and make it my business to be educated about those views.

Marking spot