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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

552 replies

biwncs · 28/12/2022 14:19

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

OP posts:
Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:19

GrasstrackGirl · 28/12/2022 16:12

So if he was not regularly asking OP if she was still on the pill it's his fault?

There's a defence force for everything it seems.

He was wearing a condom and the condom failed and he needs to pay for his child.

Condoms fail, the pill can fail, the coil
can fail. Men still need to pay for their child when these things happen. When it’s with his long-term partner, with whom he had discussed wanting children, its even more despicable not to pay.

I don’t get people on this thread :s

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:19

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 16:18

He was fine with relying on condoms as long as she was on the pill.

If he had known she no longer took the pill he would have been free to reassess his choices and pick abstinence or vasectomy or whatever. He could have made an informed choice.

OP took this option away from him. So no, he didn't knowingly accept the risk of condom failure. He accepted the risk of the pill and the condom failing at the same time, which is astronomically low.

This is not on him.

Astronomically low? But not zero?

astralpiano · 28/12/2022 16:21

Legally he should pay up. The pill isn't 100% anyway.

Morally you did a really shitty thing.

LolaSmiles · 28/12/2022 16:21

I guess I feel messed about by him and that he was giving the impression he couldn’t wait to be parents and I just wanted to speed it up. I know it’s ridiculous
I don't think you can claim he's the one messing you around when you did your best to decietfully orchestrate a pregnancy, then despite very much wanting to continue with a pregnancy pushed the abortion decision onto him (whatever he said he wouldn't win fwiw because rightly it's your body and your choice), and now you're finding there's consequences for your dishonesty.

Legally he should pay maintenance for his child.

He's also reasonable to be annoyed that his partner turned out to be a liar.

GrasstrackGirl · 28/12/2022 16:23

Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:19

He was wearing a condom and the condom failed and he needs to pay for his child.

Condoms fail, the pill can fail, the coil
can fail. Men still need to pay for their child when these things happen. When it’s with his long-term partner, with whom he had discussed wanting children, its even more despicable not to pay.

I don’t get people on this thread :s

How do you know it failed?

The OP hasn't said what the circumstances were.

Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:25

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 16:18

He was fine with relying on condoms as long as she was on the pill.

If he had known she no longer took the pill he would have been free to reassess his choices and pick abstinence or vasectomy or whatever. He could have made an informed choice.

OP took this option away from him. So no, he didn't knowingly accept the risk of condom failure. He accepted the risk of the pill and the condom failing at the same time, which is astronomically low.

This is not on him.

Ah yes, because he definitely would have chosen abstinence or a vasectomy 🙄He was still lying to OP that he wanted a child.

Luckily your opinion literally don’t matter at all. Yes he legally owes CMS. Yes he morally owes CMS - it’s for his child, the moral failings of the mother do not factor in to it. OP has behaved foolishly. Terribly even. OP should still claim CMS for her child.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 16:25

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:19

Astronomically low? But not zero?

Yes. The failure risk of condoms is roughly 15% per year.

Combined with the pill (7% per year) that brings you down to 1% per year. Regular use, not perfect use.

So being ok with a risk of 1% is NOT the same as being ok with a risk of roughly 1 in 7 (15%).

Regardless, we all have a right to informed choices about our reproduction. She should have told him.

FTY765 · 28/12/2022 16:28

The reality is, the child is here, regardless of anything else.
There are arguments to be had about the whole situation, but a innocent, dependent child is at the centre of this.

Of course he pays maintenance. That doesn't mean I don't have some sympathy for him.

Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:28

GrasstrackGirl · 28/12/2022 16:23

How do you know it failed?

The OP hasn't said what the circumstances were.

Just taking the OPs post at face value. Not inventing random shit. Not creating a straw man argument to condemn OP based on my own imagination and derail the thread.

stormywaves · 28/12/2022 16:28

To be honest stopping the pill without telling him is not far off stealthing. A man removes a condom without consent it is considered illegal in many countries. woman stops the pill without discussion (appreciate there are some nuances to these situations) and there are no consequences apart from an unexpected pregnancy.

My sympathies lie with your ex tbh. He probably feels he cannot trust you or wants anything to do with you. Legally he owes money but I can see why he will make you go through official hoops to get it.

NormalNans · 28/12/2022 16:29

GrasstrackGirl · 28/12/2022 15:51

How is it a red flag to tell the truth?

Have you only just joined mumsnet? No one ever believes that women can behave badly. As soon as someone says that their partners ex was difficult the response is that the bloke must be lying because this is ‘the script’

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:29

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 16:25

Yes. The failure risk of condoms is roughly 15% per year.

Combined with the pill (7% per year) that brings you down to 1% per year. Regular use, not perfect use.

So being ok with a risk of 1% is NOT the same as being ok with a risk of roughly 1 in 7 (15%).

Regardless, we all have a right to informed choices about our reproduction. She should have told him.

He still knew the risks of sex. He still knew he could make a baby. Now he has to pay for that baby. It really is as simple as that.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:31

stormywaves · 28/12/2022 16:28

To be honest stopping the pill without telling him is not far off stealthing. A man removes a condom without consent it is considered illegal in many countries. woman stops the pill without discussion (appreciate there are some nuances to these situations) and there are no consequences apart from an unexpected pregnancy.

My sympathies lie with your ex tbh. He probably feels he cannot trust you or wants anything to do with you. Legally he owes money but I can see why he will make you go through official hoops to get it.

It’s because a man purposefully impregnating a woman is completely different to a woman purposely allowing herself to become pregnant.

GetThatHelmetOn · 28/12/2022 16:32

Child maintenance money is for the children not for you. Claim it, whichever way your child came to be, he shouldn’t be penalised financially for it.

Besides, a non resident parent who doesn’t have his children over night at all is not expected to pay more than 15% of his salary after taxes so hardly life changing for him but it does make a difference to the opportunities your child gets in the future.

Mrstwiddle · 28/12/2022 16:38

He has the potential to make your life more difficult if he chooses to (and honestly, who could blame him?) For that reason alone, I would not go after him for money. Better to make a clean cut.

Bobsyouruncleand · 28/12/2022 16:40

Everyone saying that he should have backed out when she told him they could terminate is forgetting how big a deal this is. Anyone would struggle to comprehend what she had done and being a decent person, may have thought he could cope for the sake of the baby but realises that he can’t. This sort of shit causes seriously mental health issues.

She didn’t just trick him into this and leave him with a child he shouldn’t have to support, but she has ruined his chance of having a family with someone the right way, of having that family unit. That itself is irreparable and only a woman that still doesn’t understand the gravity of her decisions, would try to suggest he has messed her about or should have to now play dad and pay for HER child.

Yes contraception isn’t foolproof but this man thought they were doubling up and it should have been near 100% safe. If she had told him that she was coming off the pill, he may have said no to sex on condoms alone. She didn’t give him that choice.

If I was in his position and asked for CMS, I would fight the above point in court. Surely he could pursue an assault charge of some sort as he didn’t consent to the sex with just a condom. If a man had put a hole in a condom, I’m sure Police would support her in filing charges for this. It’s not just morally wrong.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:42

Bobsyouruncleand · 28/12/2022 16:40

Everyone saying that he should have backed out when she told him they could terminate is forgetting how big a deal this is. Anyone would struggle to comprehend what she had done and being a decent person, may have thought he could cope for the sake of the baby but realises that he can’t. This sort of shit causes seriously mental health issues.

She didn’t just trick him into this and leave him with a child he shouldn’t have to support, but she has ruined his chance of having a family with someone the right way, of having that family unit. That itself is irreparable and only a woman that still doesn’t understand the gravity of her decisions, would try to suggest he has messed her about or should have to now play dad and pay for HER child.

Yes contraception isn’t foolproof but this man thought they were doubling up and it should have been near 100% safe. If she had told him that she was coming off the pill, he may have said no to sex on condoms alone. She didn’t give him that choice.

If I was in his position and asked for CMS, I would fight the above point in court. Surely he could pursue an assault charge of some sort as he didn’t consent to the sex with just a condom. If a man had put a hole in a condom, I’m sure Police would support her in filing charges for this. It’s not just morally wrong.

Near 100% safe? Not 100% safe?

A man poking holes in a condom to impregnate another person is completely different. I can’t be bothered writing out a more eloquent sentence than that.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 16:43

Also it’s not her child. It’s his too.

Edinburghmusing · 28/12/2022 16:47

@Bobsyouruncleand so thats all relevant to whether the guy should have a cause of action against the OP

but that is entirely different to whether he has financial (and other) responsibility to his child. He has a relationship with his child which is entirely independent of his relationship with the child’s mother.

the needs of the child don’t disappear because their mother is morally dubious.

he is the father. End of.

I think denying a relationship with his child is as morally reprehensible as what OP has done.

there is no worthy party here poor child

Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:50

but she has ruined his chance of having a family with someone the right way, of having that family unit.

What 😂Because men never go on to create another family unit with a new woman? Bizarre comment.

Regardless of how much the people of mumsnet think OP sounds like a nasty person, her child is still entitled to CMS. There’s no discussion really.

Nordix · 28/12/2022 16:51

I think denying a relationship with his child is as morally reprehensible as what OP has done.

there is no worthy party here poor child

Agreed.

VahineNuiWentHome · 28/12/2022 16:51

@Edinburghmusing i agree.

It seems it many posters have actually thought of the one person everyone should concentrate on. The child, who never asked to be born in that mess.

LimeCheesecake · 28/12/2022 16:54

He told the OP he wanted children, with her - just not right away. He was happy to continue in the relationship and with the pregnancy when they first found out she was pregnant and he thought it was an accident. He still was happy to continue with the relationship and the pregnancy when he found out the truth. He continued with the relationship for another year, helping raise his child.

it’s only after the relationship broke down that he’s decided he shouldn’t have to pay maintenance because she tricked him. His behaviour doesn’t suggest someone who was dead set against having a child.

Milkand2sugarsplease · 28/12/2022 16:56

I would make the claim through cms.

What you did was awful and deceitful but you knew that.

BUT

You were also using condoms so "shouldn't" have got pregnant. As long as you didn't tamper with the condoms too, he should still support his child financially imo.

Pinkdelight3 · 28/12/2022 16:57

The baby exists due to a failed condom

...Due to the OP's lie about being on the pill.

Fixed that for you.