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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Fair for him to oppose paying for dc in this context? (Please be kind)

552 replies

biwncs · 28/12/2022 14:19

before I start I want to say I’ve NC as I am embarrassed by this and I know I do NOT smell of roses here. Please don’t post if it’s just to sling mud at me, i know I haven’t been perfect by a long way.

when I was 37 I panicked about wanting dc and my partner at the time was 40. He had pushed it back a year already but in fairness to him we hadn’t been together long, only two years. He would often make comments about wanting dc and where we would take them, what schools theyd go to etc. I came off the pill and didn’t say and although we also used condoms (we always have, we prefer it), I became pregnant. He was conflicted at the start but after a couple of weeks said it was up to me and he would support me either way. I asked if he wanted a termination a few times and he said no. So we carried on. Half way through the pregnancy I felt I had to tell him I had come off the pill. It was a horrible conversation understandably but we moved past it. A year or so later we broke up, since then my ex has refused to pay a penny and hasn’t spent any time with dc. He has no other kids and as far as I know not with anyone else. He tells me he shouldn’t have to pay as I made him have a dc. I now feel so conflicted about maintenance? I feel he was giving me all the signs he wanted us to have dc and I did openly discuss termination and he said no. But ultimately he’s right I came off the pill and didn’t say. I am so confused/sad as to what to do and what’s right. He doesn’t seem interested in dc either and i feel that’s on me, though I never ever had him down as someone who would abandon his child. I just don’t know what to do and feel he has a point regarding finance.

OP posts:
Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:17

Mumtobee89 · 28/12/2022 19:14

What is it if it's not a kindness? If a woman does not wish to get pregnant there are several methods of contraception.
None are 100% effective so why can't women abstain or get sterilised if they really don't want to get pregnant? After all those are the same options you said men have.

Because women have an option men don’t have - abortion. So you might think that’s unfair, but considering women have to go through the abortion/pregnancy/birth, most people would disagree with you.

Fairydustandsparklylights · 28/12/2022 19:20

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:16

No. The child’s suffering is due to the father refusing to see his own kid. What you’re doing here is saying the kid deserves to be punished for their mother’s actions. Which isn’t true, or fair.

At no point do I say the child deserves to be punished. Maybe you need to read my posts properly. What I’m saying is the child will suffer as a result of their mothers actions and choices. Sad, but true. Unfortunately, there are people with no morals in the world. Based on your defence of the situation, I’m assuming you’re one of them.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 19:21

Whelp, it's not often that i feel ashamed of being a woman, but this thread is slowly getting me there. It's sad.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:21

Fairydustandsparklylights · 28/12/2022 19:20

At no point do I say the child deserves to be punished. Maybe you need to read my posts properly. What I’m saying is the child will suffer as a result of their mothers actions and choices. Sad, but true. Unfortunately, there are people with no morals in the world. Based on your defence of the situation, I’m assuming you’re one of them.

No. If the kid suffers from not having a father, that’s a result of the father’s choice, not the mother’s.

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 19:22

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:21

No. If the kid suffers from not having a father, that’s a result of the father’s choice, not the mother’s.

Its also a consequence of the mother's choice.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:23

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 19:22

Its also a consequence of the mother's choice.

No it isn’t.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:23

Sorry, pressed send too soon. He can still be angry with the mother and see his own kid. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 19:23

yup it is.

Mumtobee89 · 28/12/2022 19:24

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:17

Because women have an option men don’t have - abortion. So you might think that’s unfair, but considering women have to go through the abortion/pregnancy/birth, most people would disagree with you.

You are the one who asked what could be done differently...
I proposed financial abortion. It really is unfair - that much is obvious. It really doesn't matter to me who agrees or disagrees.
If women do not want to go through abortion/pregnancy they can abstain or get sterilised. Or use one of the many contraceptive options available to them.

Fairydustandsparklylights · 28/12/2022 19:24

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:21

No. If the kid suffers from not having a father, that’s a result of the father’s choice, not the mother’s.

You have the same morals as the Op. I will not engage with you any further.

Mumtobee89 · 28/12/2022 19:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:25

Mumtobee89 · 28/12/2022 19:24

You are the one who asked what could be done differently...
I proposed financial abortion. It really is unfair - that much is obvious. It really doesn't matter to me who agrees or disagrees.
If women do not want to go through abortion/pregnancy they can abstain or get sterilised. Or use one of the many contraceptive options available to them.

So to make up for biological differences you’d support financial abuse? Or financial coersion?

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:26

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

What makes you think I’m a woman? And why ‘hypocrite’? Because I don’t think men and women are identical when it comes to pregnancy and birth?

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 19:27

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:23

Sorry, pressed send too soon. He can still be angry with the mother and see his own kid. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.

You are correct that they are not mutually exclusive.
But what the mother has done is something that has created resentment and this is one of the possible consequences of that.

I am not excusing the father's action but I am recognising the cause of them.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:27

Fairydustandsparklylights · 28/12/2022 19:24

You have the same morals as the Op. I will not engage with you any further.

Because I said ‘the father choosing not to see his own kid is the father’s choice’?

You want the kid punished to make the mother feel worse. I don’t think you can take any moral high ground here.

Year2023 · 28/12/2022 19:46

The fact of the matter is that the father is choosing to be absent - that choice is all on him regardless of what may or may not have have contributed to his choice, that is his child. That is on him and I'm sure the child will realise this when older as the mother is not preventing his involvement - it is THE FATHERS choice not to be involved.

Speaking as a man, I could never abandon my child no matter the circumstances. He should step up and take responsibility IMHO.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 19:47

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 19:27

Because I said ‘the father choosing not to see his own kid is the father’s choice’?

You want the kid punished to make the mother feel worse. I don’t think you can take any moral high ground here.

Absolutely no one has said or implied that the child should be punished. Stop making shit up.

OP deserved to feel guilty that her child will grow up without a father because she picked a reluctant sperm donor and forced him into parenthood, with very obvious and very forseeable consequences.

A man who uses condoms on top of the pill is not a man who is happy to be a father and OP knew full well.

She has been spectacularly selfish and has not considered how her choices might impact the poor kid.

Women need to take accountability for who they inflict as a father on their babies.

Is he wouldn't commit to a baby she was free to leave him. She was free to pursue someone else or go through an agency for sperm donation.

No amount or whining on your part will change this truth.

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 20:00

Year2023 · 28/12/2022 19:46

The fact of the matter is that the father is choosing to be absent - that choice is all on him regardless of what may or may not have have contributed to his choice, that is his child. That is on him and I'm sure the child will realise this when older as the mother is not preventing his involvement - it is THE FATHERS choice not to be involved.

Speaking as a man, I could never abandon my child no matter the circumstances. He should step up and take responsibility IMHO.

So the mother should not be held accountable for the consequences of her actions?

As I said, I am not condoning his actions but at least I can recognise the cause of them.

And the OP is not doing him a favour by allowing contact. But it is a bit late for her to play the decent person in this.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:06

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 19:47

Absolutely no one has said or implied that the child should be punished. Stop making shit up.

OP deserved to feel guilty that her child will grow up without a father because she picked a reluctant sperm donor and forced him into parenthood, with very obvious and very forseeable consequences.

A man who uses condoms on top of the pill is not a man who is happy to be a father and OP knew full well.

She has been spectacularly selfish and has not considered how her choices might impact the poor kid.

Women need to take accountability for who they inflict as a father on their babies.

Is he wouldn't commit to a baby she was free to leave him. She was free to pursue someone else or go through an agency for sperm donation.

No amount or whining on your part will change this truth.

The truth is, he made a kid.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 20:12

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:06

The truth is, he made a kid.

Yeah, against his wish.

If I fish out my partner's used condom from the trash and use the sperm to insemination myself with, would you also call that him making a kid? He consented to the sex, so I guess anything goes. Yolo!

Where do you draw the line?

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:13

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 20:12

Yeah, against his wish.

If I fish out my partner's used condom from the trash and use the sperm to insemination myself with, would you also call that him making a kid? He consented to the sex, so I guess anything goes. Yolo!

Where do you draw the line?

It wasn’t against his wish. He knew there was a chance of her getting pregnant. His only other choice was abstinence, which he didn’t choose.

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 20:17

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:13

It wasn’t against his wish. He knew there was a chance of her getting pregnant. His only other choice was abstinence, which he didn’t choose.

He might have chosen abstinence if he had known she was off the pill. He consented to the risk of pills + condoms. He did not consent to the risk of condoms alone. Two very different things.

Which part of informed consent are you struggling to understand?

Really not that hard of a concept...

Also why are you avoiding my question about the used condom scenario?

BadNomad · 28/12/2022 20:17

He believed they were using two forms of contraception. That was the level of risk he had accepted and why he accepted the pregnancy initially. Had he known the risk level had changed, he might have made a different decision, and that is why he no longer accepts the baby. This baby is not the result of a double contraception failure.

FrippEnos · 28/12/2022 20:18

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:13

It wasn’t against his wish. He knew there was a chance of her getting pregnant. His only other choice was abstinence, which he didn’t choose.

Except that this isn't the case and is the whole point of the thread.
He believed that they were using two methods of contraception.
One of which was removed without his knowledge and the other "failed".

Again yes he should pay as he is the father, although a DNA test might just be warranted.

Pumperthepumper · 28/12/2022 20:18

LaLuz7 · 28/12/2022 20:17

He might have chosen abstinence if he had known she was off the pill. He consented to the risk of pills + condoms. He did not consent to the risk of condoms alone. Two very different things.

Which part of informed consent are you struggling to understand?

Really not that hard of a concept...

Also why are you avoiding my question about the used condom scenario?

Why would he? He was using condoms, so he knew there was a risk.

I’m ignoring the thing about fishing the condom out of the bin because it’s 1)irrelevant 2) not the same and 3) I don’t think it would work anyway.