Do I tell DW about her mother's health? (Stately homes adjacent)

[SiLlyPoint]

MiL is a stunted woman who has never shown any love for DW. They were NC for a decade but, when we had DD, DW tried to patch things up, hoping that MiL would at least want a healthy relationship with her granddaughter. That sort of worked for a few years: MiL clearly loved having DD in her life, and DD - whose other grandparents are dead, dead, and domiciled on another continent, respectively - was very fond of her granny. But it turns out that, however much MiL loves my DD, she just hates my DW more. She gradually became more antagonistic towards us, and quite deliberately engineered a great big row 4 Christmases ago. MiL hasn't spoken to us since. DW would say she's just fine with that; it wasn't for her own benefit that she re-established contact with MiL and, if MiL can't even keep up a facade of civility with DW in order to see her granddaughter, then... fuck her.

I am 100% Team DW on this. She has not at any stage behaved unreasonably; in fact, it was really generous of her to open herself up to MiL's bullshit again, and it certainly isn't her fault (REDACTED BY MN as breaks TGs).

But. I still feel sorry for MiL. I know enough about her own early life to know that it's no surprise that she was woefully ill equipped for parenthood. And it's kinda heartbreaking to watch an intellectually limited old woman sabotage herself because she's too bitter and emotionally incompetent to avoid it. And, most of all, I feel sorry for DD, who misses her granny (who has scarcely been actively toxic towards her at all!)

So, for the past 3 Christmases, without DW's knowledge, I've sent MiL a package of photographs of DD from the year. I thought she'd want to see how DD is growing up. And I guess I wanted to keep a perfunctory line of communication open, just in case anyone ever wants to revisit whether an actual relationship is an option. Each time, I've included a note saying that, while my allegiances are entirely with DW, I'm prepared to be a first point of contact if MiL ever wants to reach out.

I have been totally unsurprised to hear nothing back, but that changed today when, in response to my 2022 package, I got a message from MiL's husband. When we get past the attempt to relitigate Christmas 2019 (oh FFS), he discloses that MiL is in ill health, most notably as a result of a recent stroke.

I'm sure many of you will think I've done a stupid or disloyal thing by keeping any sort of communication open. That may well be true; I was never certain it was a good idea, though I hope my intentions were unambiguously good. But - as people who have done a stupid thing like to say - we are where we are. The dilemma I have now is whether to tell DW what I know about her mother's health. I'm not sure she really wants to know, but I also think she might find it upsetting to know that I had information of that type and didn't pass it on. (This isn't about covering my ass, BTW: if the right thing to do is to tell her, I'll tell her; if the right thing to do is to keep schtum, I'll keep schtum; I'm just struggling with what the right thing to do might be...) I've also embroiled us in some ridiculous game theory shit about how 'we' now know that MiL is unwell and if 'we' don't care enough reach out, it'll only prove how justified she was to disown DW in the first place... though I'm not sure we should care whether she feels justified as long as we don't mind the consequence. Finally, although it was under quite different circumstances, I was on very strained terms with my own DM when she died, and I sort of nonspecifically regret not... y'know... trying a bit harder. Are any of these good enough reasons to disturb DW's blissful ignorance?

I'd sure be glad of any wisdom anyone is able to impart.

TL;DR: DW has been NC with MiL for 3 years. I have secretly kept a line of communication open in case anyone changes their mind. I have just heard that MiL has had a stroke. Do I tell DW?

Unforgivable.

I totally disagree with this comment. OP kept lines of communication open for his daughter's benefit. He's done a good thing with a bad situation.

@randomusername666 not his call to make

This.

Sorry but no, now is the time for total honesty and not a drip feed. That would be really shitty.

You don’t want a pile on so I will be brief.

• You cannot be 100% Team Wife if you are willing to betray her by doing this behind her back. Maybe you’re not very good at maths.
• Maybe you haven’t experienced toxic people before, but they are experts at behaving badly and then playing the victim.
• Do you understand that the biggest betrayal is that this comes across like you’ve sided with the MIL over your wife? It’s not really about the pictures, you chose sides years ago and carried on doing so for 3 years.

Come clean.

His daughter, his call

@randomusername666 I really don't agree it was his call.

It's her mother, her trauma and hurt and she is the one that truly understands the impact of that. She tried to give her daughter a grandparent and it didn't work.

I'm going to assume you've never had this type of relationship dynamic with someone. I apologize if that's wrong but I can't imagine you'd have this view if you did.

You should respect your wife's wishes, not go behind her back...

@SiLlyPoint my first DH doing my mother’s bidding behind my back was the reason I divorced him so I really don’t see how you are going to get out of this one unscathed. Having a narcissist parent (I assume your Mil has this or a similar personality type disorder) leaves you with massive trust issues. Growing up with a mother that doesn’t like you is like carrying a shameful secret. My second DH was the very first person I opened up to about what I went through as a child. Your DW may not have told you everything that went on. My own DM was equally not equipped to raise children in the same way as you describe. However neither was I, nor your DW yet we both seem to have changed the pattern of destructive behaviour towards our own daughters and become good mothers. Having a shitty childhood is not an excuse to mentally abuse children. In my case I removed my DD from the situation with her grandmother because she was toxic and her narrative was to run me down to her. Maybe your DW felt the same? I went NC and my DM then tried to gain access to information about my DD via the parents of my closest friends who ‘felt sorry for her’ they now realised they were played by my mother. Your MIL has played you and in colluding with her you have placed your marriage at risk. And for what? You may well scuttle off because you are gaining zero sympathy but the truth will always come out. I feel terrible for your wife. Christmas being with NC with parents and then being bombarded with images of perfect families and loving grandparents from every retailer is hard enough without finding out your own DH is carrying out blue on blue manoeuvres behind your back.

Come clean to your wife.

Make any future decisions on this together.

Get therapy so you're not dragging your own baggage into a complicated situation.

Toxic people like your MIL tend to lose interest in DC once they're old enough to have a mind of their own, anyway.

I am probably projecting a bit here but I was in your situation and actually went NC with toxic MIL first as I couldn’t bear how she’d done her best to break my lovely DH - she was actually vaguely pleasant towards me. I come from a close family and didn’t really understand why people would become estranged, until I entered DH’s stately homes world. I think we’ve been a bit conditioned by films and soaps that it’ll all come right in the end but my MIL continued her extraordinary cruelty even on her deathbed. So I see this as a major betrayal of trust and think it’s probably time to come clean to your wife and take the consequences.

I don't know what you should do, but I just want to say that I really appreciate how much you own your own actions, and how thoughtful you are being. I don't think you've made a significant mistake in maintaining a link with MIL, but neither do I know how to progress the current situation.

Your wife is rightly protecting herself. Job done.

Your MiL is not just your wife's mother. She's also your own mother-in-law, and more or less the only grandparent to your daughter. You also have your own relationship with her, and I think you had the right to maintain this level of awareness (which is hardly intimate contact). Your wife sought contact because she wanted her mother to have a relationship with your daughter, but in reality it's just too difficult. In a way, you've done this a little bit, quietly, on her behalf, without involving your wife because it could have resulted in more hurt for her. I don't think this is a betrayal, it's a sort of tiny investment in something your wife actually hoped to achieve but had to abandon.

I've also embroiled us in some ridiculous game theory shit about how 'we' now know that MiL is unwell and if 'we' don't care enough reach out, it'll only prove how justified she was to disown DW in the first place.
If I were in your situation, I'd explain to MiL that DW is completely unaware that you've been in touch and that you have no intention of telling her that she's unwell. If she wants your DW to know, she can get in touch herself, with an apology, and be prepared for your DW not to accept it in the interests of self-protection.

Good luck OP!

@NCftw says
“As anyone who is NC will know, there is often a niggling worry about what to do when they're old/sick/dying. Will I feel guilty? Do I want to put things right? Should I see them?

I was NC with a parent that died. I did go to see them, went to the funeral but really wish I hadn't.”

this is so true. I went NC with a family member who did die and I found out about 6 months later. I had already made peace with the fact I’d never see them again because their behaviour was appalling. Had I known they were dying would I have seen them? No - in death they we no more kind or less manipulative.

sadly this will come out one way or another, best that you manage the situation rather than let it manage you.

I hope you have a nice big pot of money to pay for therapy for your wife to get through this.

I don't think what you did was wrong. Why should your daughter (and she's your daughter just as much as your wife's daughter) be involved in what ever issues your MIL and DW have with each other? Yes of course it would be wrong to invite your MIL to visit, because clearly your DW doesn't want to see her. But why should your DW get to control everyone else's interactions?

It all sounds very playground to me. Like when your friend fell out with another friend and got cross if you stayed friends with them.

It was wrong of your DW to put you in this position, and you've made the best of a bad situation.

Presumably she says she wouldn't want to know if her mother was unwell, when you've had the hypothetical discussions?

Tell your wife and be honest. Your going to need to be prepared for her to be very angry.

For what it's worth I can understand your viewpoint you were wanting to give your DD a grandparent relationship which she couldn't understand why had stopped and leave a communication line for your MIL to see the error of her ways and apologise to your DW. Unfortunately toxic people dont work like this which your DW will know full well and hence the NC. Put your hands up explain you've handled it badly but I can see your heart was in the right place unfortunately narcissistic people it never works

This is so wrong, sorry but this attitude completely disregards the feelings of his wife and her absolute right to cut this person out.

It's so damaging for people who have been abused, gaslighted and hurt beyond measure to have that invalidated by their partner in continuing the relationship in some way.

It's for her own emotional well-being and their daughters. He doesn't get to decide to keep contact on his wife's behalf.

@Iknowhim yeah but DW doesn't have to have a relationship with her mother. No one says she has to. But why should her issues mean that her daughter should have no relationship either?

It's like divorces. My mother hated my father. He was vile to her and she hasn't spoken to him since they divorced when I was 2. She can't look at him, can't be in the same room as him, even banned him from my brother's funeral. But she quite rightly never stopped me seeing him, and has no issue with me staying in touch with him. Quite the contrary in fact. She hopes I get some inheritance from him!

I think it's controlling to emotionally blackmail people into not having contact with others.

And if this was the OP's family then the argument would hold some weight but it's not. It's her mum, not his and she calls the shots. She's tried, it didn't work and she made a decision to end the relationship.

At best the OP could have discussed sending the photos promising to manage any issues or fallout. He didn't and for some that would be unforgivable.

The other issue is that for a child, being in contact with people that act in a toxic way towards your mother is awful and also likely damaging.

What happens when the grandmother starts behaving the same way with their daughter? What if she tries to disrupt the relationship between her daughter and granddaughter?

It's fraught with complication and future hurt.

I agree that you were unwise to communicate with MIL behind your DW's back, but I think that as you know MIL has had a stroke you need to tell your DW.

Your intentions in a very difficult situation were to me entirely good.

I would fess up, and let her know what you've been told.

She then decides what she wants to do, if anything.

@Iknowhim just because it's his DW's family that are involved, it doesn't mean she owns the rights to them. Also, OP has equal involvement with regard to their child. He has as much right to decide who she's in contact with as DW has.
I agree that going behind her back was not good, but neither was DW banning all contact between daughter and grandmother.
Fault on both sides in a difficult situation.
And as far as toxicity spreading down generations, there is no reason to think a nasty person still be nasty to everyone. Time and again we see that it doesn't work that way.

You shouldn’t have sent photos. You wife needed you to have her back. You need to tell your wife her husband has been in contact. If you choose to tell her about the photos that’s up to you. Maybe take one step at a time. It’s not going to look good though.

It wasn't the grandmother / granddaughter relationship that failed though, was it?

BTW don't worry your head 'assuming' anything, it's just toxic shit stirring and nothing to do with the post.