Please help me with this.

[CastIronFire]

I posted about this on chat a couple of weeks ago.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4687973-can-someone-explain-this-to-me-please?reply=121907012

I didn't end it because I couldn't quite bring myself to do so.

Is there really no other solution?

It's unbearable now. I can't speak to him and haven't seen him. I don't want to see him. I don't want to interrupt or disturb him in case he's thinking of someone else. I don't want to see him or go out with him in case he sees someone else.

After the thread, I did a lot of reading online. Stuff by psychologists and relationship therapists and all of them say its healthy to fantasise about other people sexually and that it makes sex better if the person you are having sex with is thinking about someone else! I also read that it happens several times a day and people are wrong for considering it to be 'microcheating'.

How have I got this so wrong?

I just don't understand. What is the point in going out with someone if you are constantly lusting after other people? What is the point? I don't need someone to mow my lawns, provide for me financially, help cook the dinner. I can either do those things myself or pay someone to do it.

It just feels like the model is you fancy someone and pursue them until you get them and then you spend the relationship being sexually attracted to other people.

Ir that you go out with someone 'un your keague' and then use them to fantasise about other people you find more desirable.

I thought itight he something that happened occasionally but to read it happens several times a day for most people has just destroyed me. It's all I can think about.

None of the other stuff he does or we have feels like it matters anymore and the only thing that does is that I'm not enough because, according to the internet, he's going to be constantly being briefly sexually aroused by everyone from the woman who serves him coffee to colleagues to actors in films he is watching and just supposed to be ok with that because it'll make our sex life better for him.

I don't even want to have sex with him anymore because of the fear of it.

It's making me ill.

And thank you.

If you want to reach a point where you don't need reassuring, you need to bolster your self-confidence. This is why I was saying that it would be helpful for you to be more positive about your appearance (and perhaps other things). You know those daily affirmations that some people do, where they look in the mirror and say "I am beautiful, I am good enough"... that kind of thing? Maybe that could help?

There's no reason to think that he adored his ex more than he adores you (as far as I know.) Again, using myself as an example, I adored my exes back in the past, but those relationships ended (and for good reasons in the end) and my wife does not need to be competing with those women in any way.

@Aussiegirl123456 In the nicest way possible, you need to have some therapy and work on your self esteem.

THIS with bells 🔔

I’ve gone back and skimmed your other thread now to OP and I can’t help but wonder what you’d like from these conversations? Not that there ever has to be anything concrete, nor do you “owe”anyone on here a decision, but I am genuinely curious what you hope to get here.

On both threads, dozens and dozens of posters have explained how they are able to hold a fantasy, or crush, on another person, particularly a celebrity, without it impacting in any way on the way they feel about their partner - which should in some way show you that what your partner may feel about a celebrity being attractive is very common, and won’t affect how he feels about you.

Equally, you have said that the explanations make little sense to you personally as that’s not how your thoughts and imaginations work, which is absolutely fine.

But rather than go round and round in circles having the same debates, what do you want to try and get out of these conversations?

No one on here can change your thinking about attraction. And no one on here can give you the approval, or make the decision, to not be in relationships.

What would you like?

TheOtherBoleynGirls

I don't know.

Part of me was hoping someone would say something and I'd have a bit of a "Oh, ok" moment and it would all make sense. But, tbh, a lot of what I have read has made me feel worse and that it's hopeless.

Part of it is curiosity about how NT people think and trying to understand it from that perspective.

I was diagnosed around 6/7 years ago and I'm a very different person now to I was then. Because I've spent a lot of time trying to understand how other people think. Until then, I hadn't realised I thought differently to other people. I'd assumed I was the same as everyone else and I just was failing as a human.

Some of the recent posts and a couple on the other thread have helped a lot in terms of understanding it but it hasn't made any difference to how I feel or my responses when I'm in the position of feeling like it. And I still don't really understand it or why it's necessary.

I don't know if therapy would help. I've had therapy before for different things and it hasn't really made any difference. There are some cbt therapists who can work from an autistic perspective but I don't like cbt.

This man has shown me that I can be loved and, for the first time in my life, I feel loved and accepted. I have strategies for managing life so that my autism has the minimum impact in things I have control of. But I don't have control over someone else's thoughts feelings (and I wouldn't want to). My reactions are seen as controlling by some on here but they are strategies to avoid meltdowns which is about all I can do. So when I leave a room, place, situation, it's a de-escalation technique to avoid a meltdown and regain control over myself rather than an attempt to control someone else.

But I don't want to be in a constant state of trying to de-escalate because it feels horrible and is exhausting and then i sometimes feel like im gaslighting or manipulating myself to accept things im not happy with to be like everyone else. When, from what I've seen and heard, I'm not actually sure I want to be like everyone else.

"But I don't want to be in a constant state of trying to de-escalate because it feels horrible and is exhausting" - @CastIronFire That does sound really hard and I can see why you're wondering about just being single instead. I guess I'm approaching this thread with the point of view of "let's see if there are ways for you to feel a bit better about these subjects, to the point where being in a relationship seems worthwhile, and if you don't reach that point then you can always choose to end the relationship at some point."

Would it be helpful if you could believe that your partner really doesn't give much thought to any exes or celebrities? It seems like you can quickly spiral into thinking "I've heard that people fantasise lots about other people, and I've read that they do this during sex too and it makes sex better and I'm supposed to be OK with that" but I personally am not like this and maybe your partner isn't either. Could you stop the spiral by telling yourself "some people keep fantasising like this, but my partner doesn't do that, and he just wants to be with me"?

When I wrote about finding my wife beautiful, you said that she was very lucky, even though I said that I do briefly notice other attractive women. She is much more important to me than random women or exes or celebrities, so if your partner sees you in that same way, then would it seem like this relationship could work for you, just like you imagine my relationship working for my wife?

Op, being autistic or NT has little to do with how many people someone is attracted to at any one time. I'm autistic and polyamorous. In fact, the poly/swinging communities are full of ND types. One theory is we're less susceptible to being conditioned by social norms and expectations and monogamy doesn't fit as a result.

My point is, you don't need to gaslight yourself into being like anyone else. I believe it's possible to be comfortable with who you are, how your brain works, and be comfortable with and accepting of other people being different. At the moment you're very uncomfortable with the difference and it's making you miserable. I don't think it's necessary to completely understand how and why somebody thinks and functions differently to you in order to be ok with it. My DP of 7 years isn't ployamorous, for example.

I've had various types of therapy over the years: psychotherapy, CBT, DBT and ACT. The most useful, by a long way, was ACT (acceptance and commitment therapy). Feeling threatened by things beyond my control has diminished significantly as a result. The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris might be worth a look if you're interested in therapy that doesn't seek to reprogramme you into being something you're not comfortable with.

MoonbeamsGlittering

I've reflected quite a bit on your posts in particular over the past few days. Thank you for taking the time to give such detailed responses.

I think I've been able to clarify my thoughts on it a little at least.

It doesn't really bother me if he sees someone in passing and thinks she is attractive. i understand that. But I wouldnt describe that as 'fancying' and it seems other people do? I occasionally notice someone if they have good hair or nice boots etc. But I have never had the feeling of 'fancying' someone on this basis. I've never felt sexual desire towards an actor or a random man who passes me in the street.

It would bother me if he was thinking about someone else during sex. That would feel like I wasn't good enough or like I was being used in place of sex with someone else he preferred. Given my experiences, if he was choosing to stay at home and binge watch a TV series because he fancied someone in it and had a physical or emotional response to it, in my mind, that would be no different to spending time with a real life person he was choosing over me and I would see it as a form of cheating. I don't see how it could be anything else.

i have a huge problem with being compared to other women. My mum struggled with my differences when I was growing up and my over riding memory is of being asked constantly why I couldn't be more like the other girls or why I didn't dress more like one of the other girls in my class. I was always compared unfavourably to someone else and when I was 'just like' someone, it was always negative. I grew up very aware that I was 'less than' other girls.

That is something that has followed through into many of the relationships I've tried to have as an adult. I've always been compared to this celebrity or that actress or that performer or other women in general and been found lacking. Why don't I do/wear/look like xxx? If other women can be xxx why can't I?

I wouldn't be able to sit next to him if he was watching something and I knew he liked one of the women in it. I have to leave the room if songs come on that are sung by someone he likes. I wouldn't expect him to not watch or to turn something off or nothing like that but I'm not going to stand there like an idiot whilst I've been pushed out of his head and he's thinking of someone else.

I said your wife is lucky because you have repeatedly stated that you don't think about other women other than in passing.

Someone asked what had triggered this since I haven't always felt like it.

I've thought about it and realised it's these things.

Firstly, I told him months ago that I don't 'fancy' other men - not actors or musicians or whatever. He said he didn't famcy other women either. That he didn't understand it when people became obsessed or fantasised about celebrities. They're not real people and you don't know them etc. But then he later said that he liked a couple of women and later again that he thought having crushes on other people was harmless. So I feel I've been lied to.

Secondly, he had a crush on me before we got together and what he described to le wouldn't have been 'harmless' if he'd been in a relationship. He doesn't have a crush on me now because we are together so, in my head, the thoughts and daydreams that were once afforded to me aren't an 'amazing, I felt like this and now were together' but have just opened up a space for someone else (the phrase that pops into my mind is that 'when a man marries his mistress, it creates a vacancy'.). Crushes and fantasies are going to be better than reality (although I understand your 'points' analogy), because someone can be who and whatever you want in your head. They can be as perfect as you want and without any flaws or imperfections. I can't compete with that.

Thirdly, he has talked about us moving in together at some poiint a few times now. The thought terrifies me. Not the living with him aspect of it. But the feeling of being trapped. Of feeling I can't get away. The feeling that he can't get away. What if I discovered something about him after 5 years that meant I couldn't live with him anymore. What if I discovered it after 5 weeks?

At the moment you're very uncomfortable with the difference and it's making you miserable

I am and it is.

I don't like cbt/reprogramming therapies because, you're right, it feels like gaslighting.

I feel bad for him because I think he thinks this is something we can work through and i know now it isn't. I know he loves me and I know he cares about me but he can't change who is he or how he feels and shouldn't try and neither can I.

i have a huge problem with being compared to other women. My mum struggled with my differences when I was growing up and my over riding memory is of being asked constantly why I couldn't be more like the other girls or why I didn't dress more like one of the other girls in my class. I was always compared unfavourably to someone else and when I was 'just like' someone, it was always negative. I grew up very aware that I was 'less than' other girls.

That's really horrible and your mother did you a huge disservice. Not everyone thinks like that and it is possible to unlearn that damaging thought process if you want to.

@CastIronFire You're welcome - I'm glad if my posts are a bit helpful with thinking things through, whatever the final result may be.

Certainly it doesn't sound like moving in together is a great idea any time soon. I think moving in together is only a good idea if both people are feeling contented and stable within the relationship.

I think one tricky thing can be that different people have different definitions of words like "fancy" and "crush". I use "fancy" just to mean that I find a woman attractive-looking, so if I see an attractive woman in the street I might glance briefly and be aware that I "fancy" her, but I wouldn't be thinking about having sex with her or anything, and I wouldn't be thinking about her later while with my wife.

I would say I had "crushes" when I was a teenager at school (and I was single.) I would think about someone a lot. But it wasn't really much fun. I was wanting something that I didn't have. Actually being with someone who wants to be with me is much nicer. I think your partner prefers being with you rather than thinking about you while not being in a relationship with you. It sounds like his "crush" on you was when he was single, so maybe he doesn't have crushes while in relationships? I think a crush can fill the gap left by being single. When someone is in a relationship, that gap isn't there.

I can find certain female singers attractive but I don't focus on that when listening to their songs, and I certainly wouldn't focus on them in preference to my wife.

Maybe it's worth trying to find out exactly what these words mean to him? Or would that be too risky or painful?

Thank you. I was feeling contented and stable but I can't even remember feeling like that now. I just know that I did. But I'm far from it now.

He has said that, if I feel like this, I should talk to him but I think the problem is that I now feel like we've spoken about it a few times. I don't want to keep bringing it up. He feels I haven't told him everything. He's right. I can't remember everything at the time and panic and lose myself in tangents.

I'm not sure there's anything he could say that would make any difference anyway.

Your posts feel very reassuring to me. But that's because I'm not in a relationship with you. I'm not sure how reassuring they would be if I were.

And yes, it would be too risky to ask.

I couldn't cope with any more words rattling around in my head i don't think. Especially if I heard something unhelpful. Especially if I couldn't trust they were the truth

It's totally fair enough if you don't feel like risking questions at the moment, of course. If you did talk more with him at any point, it might be good to say that you'd rather not hear about any more singers/actresses/whatever that he finds attractive. Would it help to talk with other people who might have had similar experiences? Are there autism support groups where you might talk to others in similar situations?

Something that occurred to me about fancying celebrities: some of that can be "historic", like when I was younger and single and noticed certain celebrities more, and now I'm still aware that they are good-looking but I don't give it much thought because I'm in a relationship. My wife asked me once for an example of a celebrity that I found attractive, and I was able to give her an example from my single days, but I really don't think often about that celebrity now.

I wasn't quite sure why my posts would be reassuring if not in a relationship, but not if in one. Would you feel like expanding on that point? I guess my point is that your partner might be like me, in terms of being focussed on his partner and not other women, and that might be good news.

I suppose I meant that, your posts are reassuring to me because you have nothing to gain from saying it. And certainly nothing to gain from me. If I were in a relationship with you, I would wonder whether you were being honest with me.

Anyway, I thought I would just update. I went out with my boyfriend the other evening. We had both had a couple of beers which made it easier to talk about it.

I told him pretty much what I have said here and he was honest in his responses. I know him well enough to know when he is being completely honest.

He said he felt similarly to you, Moonbeams in pretty much all respects. He reminded of a couple of things that he has done which prove how he feels. He has made a couple of fairly big sacrifices and took a big chance on us early on. I did say that how he feels about me isn't in any question. I explained that I wasn't looking for reassurance as such but that I needed to know honestly because then I could process that information and deal with it. 'Reassurances' would just make me feel I was being placated. So he was honest.

He also revealed a few of his own insecurities. Two of them he jokes about but I didn't realise they actually bother him. The other, I had no idea about! I was surprised at the strength of my reaction to him telling me. I found it quite upsetting that he would feel insecure with me. He said that is how he feels about my about me and, if I could experience how he feels about me, I'd never doubt him.

It's made a huge difference to how I feel about everything. I still have those feelings but they don't seem as important as they did and haven't been quite as as much at the forefront of my mind the last couple of days. He says that, if I ever have doubts or am not sure what to do, then I should just speak with him about it.

Thank you for your reflections and support. Its been really helpful x

You're welcome - glad to hear that things sound a lot better now! I hadn't thought about whether he might have insecurities. It sounds great that you were both able to talk so openly. Hopefully that's a good sign going forwards!