Please help me with this.

[CastIronFire]

I posted about this on chat a couple of weeks ago.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4687973-can-someone-explain-this-to-me-please?reply=121907012

I didn't end it because I couldn't quite bring myself to do so.

Is there really no other solution?

It's unbearable now. I can't speak to him and haven't seen him. I don't want to see him. I don't want to interrupt or disturb him in case he's thinking of someone else. I don't want to see him or go out with him in case he sees someone else.

After the thread, I did a lot of reading online. Stuff by psychologists and relationship therapists and all of them say its healthy to fantasise about other people sexually and that it makes sex better if the person you are having sex with is thinking about someone else! I also read that it happens several times a day and people are wrong for considering it to be 'microcheating'.

How have I got this so wrong?

I just don't understand. What is the point in going out with someone if you are constantly lusting after other people? What is the point? I don't need someone to mow my lawns, provide for me financially, help cook the dinner. I can either do those things myself or pay someone to do it.

It just feels like the model is you fancy someone and pursue them until you get them and then you spend the relationship being sexually attracted to other people.

Ir that you go out with someone 'un your keague' and then use them to fantasise about other people you find more desirable.

I thought itight he something that happened occasionally but to read it happens several times a day for most people has just destroyed me. It's all I can think about.

None of the other stuff he does or we have feels like it matters anymore and the only thing that does is that I'm not enough because, according to the internet, he's going to be constantly being briefly sexually aroused by everyone from the woman who serves him coffee to colleagues to actors in films he is watching and just supposed to be ok with that because it'll make our sex life better for him.

I don't even want to have sex with him anymore because of the fear of it.

It's making me ill.

Would it be nice to feel better about this aspect of yourself (whether you're single or not), if there was a way to achieve this via a change in mindset?

I don't ever feel like it when I'm single. I don't give a second thought to what other people think of me physically or whether they find me attractive. I'm not flattered if someone says they are attracted to me. It's irrelevant.

The way it looks to me is that I can be single and content or I can try and stay in a relationship but will need £££ and hours of therapy in order to be able to do so.

Did you have negative thoughts about your appearance at the start of your current relationship? Or only after the "crush" talk? If you were content with your appearance before, and your appearance hasn't changed, then perhaps you actually still look fine?

I look no different. We haven't been together long enough for there to be any significant changes.

I was comfortable at the start. I don't really give my appearance much thought when I'm single. I'm happy with the way I look and, when I'm not, it doesn't particularly matter to me because men in general finding me attractive isn't important to me and I don't really care whether other women think I am or not. So I just believed what he said.

I'm not really sure what triggered feeling less attractive because he hasn't ever said anything about that was critical in anyway. I think it's what's unsaid that is more of an issue.

And when he has made a couple of comments in passing about a couple of famous women I can see that I look nothing like them. I look nothing like his exes who have physical similarities to each other. So I don't see how I can be attractive to him. And if he loves me or finds me attractive despite those differences or that lack, that's horrible.

It's not really about what I look like generally. It's more that I'm obviously not enough if he's finding qualities I don't possess attractive and desirable in other women. If I were enough as I am, he wouldn't notice.

I've also just thought.

If there is something I know he finds generally attractive/appealing - clothing or something, I avoid wearing or doing it because I feel that he is always going to be comparing me to other women wearing/doing similar and I'm never going to be as good. So I avoid it.

He mentioned once that he likes bare shoulders because my dressing gown had slipped on one side and he said it was sexy. So I always keep my shoulders covered. I was looking at a Bardot top online because I was thinking of buying one when we first started seeing each other. I was thinking about trying to wear something different to what I always wear to see how I felt about it. I don't wear skirts and tops because they're uncomfortable. After that comment, I took it out of my online shopping basket and haven't thought about it again until just.

I don't agree with the logic of "he finds a certain trait attractive; I'm different; therefore he doesn't find me attractive." My first two girlfriends looked quite similar. My wife looks completely different from them. I found my first two girlfriends attractive, and I find my wife even more attractive. I don't just have one "type". Also it's not only about looks, but even if we're considering looks alone, my wife does not need to worry at all that I'm hankering after someone who looks like my old girlfriends. Because I'm not, honestly. And I'm not wishing that she looked like them, and I'm not comparing her to celebrities. I tell her that she looks beautiful, and I mean it, and if other attractive women walk past me it doesn't change the fact that she looks beautiful.

You sound very happy with your wife and she sounds like a very lucky woman.

if other attractive women walk past me it doesn't change the fact that she looks beautiful

I think that explains it really well. For
many people it’s about being able to hold on to that duality of thought.

As an example, I find my DH very attractive. Some days he looks more attractive, some days he looks less. Just like I know I look more attractive some days than others. But his looks aren’t all I love him for and am attracted to: it’s the whole package, looks and personality and the way he makes me feel.

Objectively, I can watch a TV show and acknowledge that Pedro Pascal is a very sexy man. I might indulge in a day dream on the train about a man who looks like him. But it sits in a completely separate part of my brain than my feelings towards DH. No, he’s not as attractive as Pedro Pascal. I’m definitely not as attractive as Alison Brie. Maybe my DH indulges in a day dream about her on the train too. But this doesn’t affect our feelings towards each other, which is a mix of love and attraction and interest and simple “like” which all merged together to make them the person we want to spend our lives with.

I have no doubt that there are plenty of people out there who don’t feel like this, but I wanted to try and explain how it feels for someone who regularly gets “crushes” on celebrities, for example.

"You sound very happy with your wife and she sounds like a very lucky woman." @CastIronFire But maybe your partner sees you in the same way in which I see my wife? Maybe he's very happy with you? Would that make you a lucky woman?

I'm not very easy and I think he finds that hard. He deserves better 🤷🏻‍♀️

He's too old to be dealing with my head stuff.

It sitting in a different part of the brain makes a bit of sense. Like it's a totally different thing?

How would you feel though if you were watching something with Pedro Pascal in and your husband was sitting next to you? How would you feel if he did the same and it was Aliso Brie (for example)? I have no idea who these people are btw.

The part of your brain that processes speech is the same whether its external speech (setting you're listening to) or internal (your thoughts). Your brain can't process both at the same time. That's how it is for me. If I was thinking about one person, I wouldn't be able to hold any space for another.

My children put on an episode of something yesterday. He said a couple of weeks ago that he thought the female lead was quite pretty and he'd rewatched an entire series of the show partly because of the storyline and partly (i suspect) because of her. I left the room to do something while they all watched it. I couldn't be in the room at the same time knowing that he was having those thoughts about her. It changed how I felt for the whole of the rest of the day.

And that's the real point isn't it....it's not your attractiveness or anyone else's beauty of your boyfriends response to beauty that is the problem...it's your immature thinking, rigidity and inflexibility and lack of tolerance.

At some level you know it and even if you resolved this issue, thered be orher aspects of his life and mind you'd seek to control. Because you can't manage your own insecurities and instead want him to deal with them for you.

@Pineappleskies No offence, but I don't think the criticism in your post helps anyone. The OP has asked for help. Nobody needs to try to attack her on behalf of how we think the experience might be for her partner. I'm sure he wouldn't thank you for that!

I don't want him to deal with anything. Where have I said I want him to deal with anything?

I was trying to gain some understanding of it before making a decision about what I am going to do. I don't want him to have to deal with it. I wanted to either be able to manage it myself or take myself out of the situation if I can't. I don't expect anything of him.

@CastIronFire The part of your brain that processes physical attractiveness is probably different from the part that processes caring about someone, enjoying their company, having shared values or senses of humour, and so on.

If I look at a celebrity, it might fire off the "she's good-looking" part of my brain, but not all those other parts. If I look at my wife, it can fire off the "she's good-looking" part and a variety of other parts. It really is very different.

@CastIronFire You say "He deserves better" but if he seems happy with you, then he's probably old enough to make that choice himself?

I'm wondering more whether you're worried that he will reject you, so you push him away in certain ways to try to protect yourself a bit from the possibility of getting hurt. You say that you deliberately don't wear things that he would like. Do you deliberately avoid doing other things that he would like as well? Could it be that you're testing him to see whether he will still stay even if you don't do these things? (My first girlfriend was like this sometimes. Now I think of it, she also quizzed me on finding celebrities attractive. I said "No" to a series of women she showed me, and then when I finally said "Yes" to one of them she got upset.)

If you are with your wife (who fires the 'she's good looking' part of your brain) and you see another woman while you are with her whoo also fires the 'she's good looking' part of your brain, in that moment, which is stronger? Which takes precedence in your emotional/physical/mental responses?

If you were with your wife and quite happy with her and then a woman who fired your 'she's good looking' part of your brain, what would happen? What would your reaction be?

Not your response because I can't imagine you'd turn away from your wife or focus all your attention on the woman you also found good looking but what would your reaction be?

The reason I'm asking is that I dated a man a few years ago who took me to a show. We walked in and he was attentive towards me. We sat down in our seats and he held my hand, looked at me and smiled, checked i was comfortable etc. Within 20 minutes or so, I he was clearly captivated by one of the performers. He let go of my hand and leaned forward in his seat. He remained like that for the duration of the show. During the interval, he was polite and bought me a drink but also seemed irritated by my presence and talked about her endlessly. We went for drinks after the show and he was lost in thought and I might as well have not been there.

Yes, the same. The two parts don’t really affect one another. I can watch a show with someone I find attractive and not feel that it is changing how I feel about my DH.

What’s interesting is that when you say Your brain can't process both at the same time. That's how it is for me. If I was thinking about one person, I wouldn't be able to hold any space for another, I have a similar reaction to your opinion as you do to many of ours - I don’t quite understand what you mean, because the two things are very separate for me.

If you were with your wife and quite happy with her and then a woman who fired your 'she's good looking' part of your brain, what would happen? What would your reaction be?

Not your response because I can't imagine you'd turn away from your wife or focus all your attention on the woman you also found good looking but what would your reaction be?

My reaction would be no more than, my,
he’s hot, and then… Not much else. To use an old phrase, I’d appreciate the view but think nothing much else of it.

Tbh, the examples you use of how your precious boyfriends have acted says a lot more about the men you have been with than people in general. Nearly everyone on this thread will tell you that their behaviour was very, very unusual.

I wouldn't ever ask him somethig like that. I only know what he has volunteered.

No, I don't do those things to test him. I do it to try and avoid comparisons arising in his head where I will fail.

If he thinks - it's sexy when a woman does/wears x, y, or z then if I do that and I'm not sexy then he will have that memory/image in his head of me failing/doing it and not being sexy. If he thinks about it occasionally and wishes I would do/wear x, y or z then he can make it as perfect or right or good as he wants because it only exists in his imagination. I can't sully it with the reality.

So if he has previously seen a woman he thinks looks sexy in certain clothes or behaving a certain way or whatever and mentions it, I know that I wouldn't. Its not a test to see if he will stay with me even if I don't. I'm trying to avoid him being disappointed in me.

It might also be the case that someone he has been in a relationship with previously has worn/done it because he said he liked it. I don't want to be compared to them either.

"If you were with your wife and quite happy with her and then a woman who fired your 'she's good looking' part of your brain, what would happen? What would your reaction be?"

@CastIronFire I would be aware that I had just seen another attractive woman. I would acknowledge to myself (for half a second) that this other woman was also attractive, and then I would stop looking and focus back on my wife. I would deliberately not pay loads of attention to the other woman because I think that would be disrespectful to my wife.

I was the poster suggesting the "points" system earlier in the thread. Firing off parts of the brain is a bit like the "points". If another woman fires off the "she's good-looking" part, even if she fired it off slightly stronger than my wife (which is quite rare), she still wouldn't be firing off the other parts. So she still wouldn't be any competition to my wife. The only way to compete would be if the other woman could somehow form a strong bond with me in lots of other ways as well, but I don't put myself in that position (that's the kind of thing that people who have affairs do, I think.)

I agree with the poster saying that you've dated some very rude or thoughtless guys in the past and it may have damaged your self-esteem.

I suppose its because I don't have a physical response to another man if I'm dating. I don't really notice if someone is good looking unless someone else points it out or asks me, when I will think about it. But I don't ever have feelings of 'fancying' someone unless I am single or its towards the person I'm dating. And I never have feelings of having a crush on someone else.

I wouldn't ever feel sexual desire towards anyone else, or daydream about anyone in the way you describe.

One of my colleagues is male. He's 20 years younger than me. He's good at his job and is good at a certain aspect I wish I was better at. He's enviably organised and very reliable. These are all the things i noticed about him.

I'd worked with him for 3 months before someone made a comment about him being good looking. Until that point, I hadn't noticed what he looked like. He goes to the gym every day. He mentioned it in conversation about how we spend our free time. Until then, I hadn't noticed he was 'fit'. Once I'd noticed, it was obvious but I just hadn't noticed.

"If he thinks - it's sexy when a woman does/wears x, y, or z then if I do that and I'm not sexy then he will have that memory/image in his head of me failing/doing it and not being sexy. If he thinks about it occasionally and wishes I would do/wear x, y or z then he can make it as perfect or right or good as he wants because it only exists in his imagination. I can't sully it with the reality."

@CastIronFire It's your choice, of course, and I'm certainly not suggesting that you should do anything that you're not comfortable with. But if I have a sexy idea in my head, and my wife then does that thing in real life, it's more sexy when my wife does it, because she's real, and she's the person that I care about and that I want to be intimate with. I would much rather have sexy memories with my wife, rather than sexy images of someone I've never met.

I do often think back on sexy memories involving my wife, but I never think about ex-girlfriends in that way. Those are archived chapters in my past. My wife is the present and hopefully the future.

Thank you for explaining that. That hadn't occurred to me.

I'm still not sure though.

"I'm still not sure though." @CastIronFire Fair enough - it does take time to take in new ideas. It does seem like he's a good guy from what you've said so far. Are you thinking about continuing to try with him for now? You can always change your mind at any point. And you're very welcome to ask for more advice or perspectives here, or PM me if you prefer.

At the moment, I'm fine one minute then something can happen and I'm.not fine for the rest of the day. I'm trying to keep it from him but he's not stupid.

He spoke to me about some of it again on Thursday. He brought it up. He's very 'reassuring' but reassurances aren't what I want.

I don't want him to feel he has to reassure me. I don't want to need reassuring. And reassurances are often just platitudes that don't mean anything.

When I first met him, he was with his ex girlfriend. He was utterly adoring towards her and treated her beautifully. No one ever doubted him, his feelings or anything. He is no different with me but I'm also not her.