Moody husband update

[Olinguita]

I posted back in July about my struggles with my husband's ongoing mood swings. I wanted to give an update and ask the wise women of the Relationships board what you think of the recent improvement... And whether it is enough...
Background: since FIL passed away last year and DH has been cycling in and out of viciously bad moods that are incredibly destabilising and upsetting for me. We have a one year old child. I am VERY sympathetic to the bereavement but parenting a child in this environment has been challenging for me. He has had a short course of counseling but didn't really engage with it and wouldn't do any of the "homework". He refuses to see a GP. Widowed MIL is struggling to manage alone and they speak on the phone up to five times a day.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/relationships/4593227-the-never-ending-moods?reply=118655008
The update: just wanted to say a huge thank you to everyone who commented on the original post. You all helped me to gain some much needed outside perspective on a massively confusing situation.
I've gone back to work after my mat leave on a part-time basis but I have secured a promotion since my return that puts me on a much better salary. I know some people on the original thread expressed their concerns about me becoming financially dependent on this man, and I totally agree. I did some very aggressive networking when I finished mat leave and made sure that decision-makers at work knew that I was back in the game.
DH is somewhat improved and is more helpful with the baby now, and seems to get more enjoyment from parenting. My return to work has actually been pretty smooth so far and it is partly thanks to him stepping up at home
His moods are nowhere near as bad as they were a few months ago. However.... A couple of times a week he gets into horrible moods and either totally shuts down or is snappy and irritable. He sits on the sofa scowling, huffing and puffing and going on his phone. He gets angry if I ask what is wrong and says I am "provoking" him by asking questions. So I pull back, feeling a bit stung, and give him space, maybe offer a cup of tea and say I'm here to talk if he wants. I also ensure that he gets a decent amount of rest and free time on weekends. I appreciate that grief and depression are draining.
Even so....I find this a really unhealthy dynamic and I'm frankly getting a bit sick of it. Sometimes worse arguments do blow up over the most ridiculous things. he criticized my cooking while I was halfway through making a stew the other day, I defended myself and said he was being a pain, and he went nuts, yelling loud enough to wake the baby, punching the wall and swearing at me ("I don't want to eat your fucking food anyway") he then got all tearful and apologized.
I feel on edge around him a lot of the time, even when he is being nice. I also don't feel attracted to him at all and I can't let myself relax enough to be intimate 😬
He won't go for marriage counselling but I am going on my own.
I guess we are plodding along ok and to the outside it looks like things are getting better. But I don't know if it's enough. Are most couples tiptoeing around each other like this?

I agree with calling him out and suggesting a trial separation for him yo sort himself out. Sometimes people need a sharp wake up call to fully acknowledge their behavior.

DH had to do this to me a few years ago. It wasn’t as serious as your situation (no violence), but I was taking out my unhappiness on him. He sat me down and said he wasn’t going to put up with it-I either did something about it or we were finished.

I was so shocked that I went to my doctor’s, burst into tears, explained I was so anxious all the time, had had panic attacks, etc. I was diagnosed with GAD, have had counseling and medication, and I’ve learned to cope much better. DH and I have a far better relationship now, even though we’ve had some tough times since, including a death this year, family illness, money worries. But I can deal with stress better and I communicate better now-as does DH.

So your relationship may be be salvageable IF he admits there’s a problem and does something about it. All the best, 💐

DH does have some things that he isn't happy about in the relationship. These are:

1. that I am "policing" his behaviour if I call him out on being in a bad mood,
2. that I "hate " his mum (I don't, I just find her very difficult and would like to establish boundaries) and
3. he hates the 2bed flat we live in.

OP, these aren't problems with the relationship or with you. These are him blaming you for:

1. his bad moods, which he inflicts on you. You have a right to speak up for yourself.
2. his mum's difficult behaviour. You have a right to set your own boundaries.
3. the flat you live in! Like you could snap your fingers and turn it into a three-bed house!

I read a book called Why Does He Do That? and it said counselling doesn’t work well in relationships with controlling men because you are not walking in with equal amounts of issues, it’s hugely one sided and a normal counsellor won’t understand.

You’re not ‘policing’ his behaviour - you’re standing up for yourself. He doesn’t like being challenged by you because he’s a bully. He wants free rein to abuse you.
He hates the two bedroomed flat because you own it. He wants power over you.
It’s tosh that you hate his mum. They’re two of a kind: together they will bring you down further.
He knows that by not discussing the situation with you you’re becoming increasingly frustrated and weakened. Power to him again.
Can you change counsellor?

@Olinguita your counsellor doesn’t sound like he understands emotional abuse. Just ‘talking’ to your husband isn’t going to solve the issues of his sulking, nastiness and extreme rages. Nothing you do is going to change this man and your time would be better spent on speaking to Women’s Aid about how to leave this relationship safely.

I’m another one who suggests you read ‘Why does he do that?’ by Lundy Bancroft.

Above PPs are right in that there should NEVER be joint counseling in a controlling or abusive (and control IS abusive) relationships. The whole relationship is off balance because the 'controller' IS controlling the 'controllees' responses though intimidation and fear of the controllers responses. In other words, you keep your mouth shut during sessions for fear of there being 'hell to pay' afterwards.

I think you need to stop seeing this counselor as he seems to be seeing it only from your H's perspective. That could be because you are 'holding back' for fear of that 'hell to pay' thus he's only getting H's side of the story and you sitting there not defending yourself or speaking your own truth. Or maybe he's just a shit counselor.

The other option would be to see him alone and state your case to him. That at this point you don't see the marriage as salvageable, but you are willing to try a trial separation with the stipulations you mention. But that H must be the one to leave the residence during the separation.

@Honeycombcrunch @Migoodness yeah I think I need to change counselor.
I had a session (solo) today and it actually felt quite victim-blaming. The counsellor told me that the sessions had been like a one-way exchange and that I had "shared a lot" and that he had a hunch that due to my behaviour in our sessions that I wasn't listening properly to my husband or giving him airtime to speak. I was initially mortified and told the counsellor I wish he had told me he felt like this a few sessions ago 😱😱😱 I swear that I am open to taking constructive feedback and improving my communication skills.
But at the same time it felt a bit "off"....

@Cameleongirl more power to you for seeking mental health support! I'm similar to you, I have struggled with depression and anxiety in the past but am always proactive about seeking support, whether that is counselling or medication. Anxiety is not my fault but I can take steps to make sure it doesn't negatively impact others. I wish my DH took this approach.

@DeeCeeCherry I'm so sorry about the loss of your dad. I think losing a parent you are close to must be it's own kind of hell. I have no idea how I would keep going but I know that one has to. But it is useful for me to get a perspective from someone recently bereaved about how DH's behaviour is not ok.
You are 100% correct about me being tired. I am absolutely bone-tired and it goes beyond the tiredness that is normal for the working mum of a toddler. It's like I'm tired in my soul .

@NoodleSoup12 @goosegrease789 I absolutely hear you .. this is not a healthy environment for my child

@Tigresswoods that's really inspiring that you stood your ground. I actually feel I could make an ultimatum and back it up with action but I need to work up a bit more courage. Nearly there. Hope you are doing ok now.

WTF?!!!! That’s outrageous. It’s counselling, you’re supposed to be sharing a lot and exploring your feelings and thoughts. Your counsellor sounds awful. I would advise you change asap and maybe look into something like psychotherapy that is not marriage based- seeks so often marriage counsellors being a LOT of their own biases and issues to the table.

As for your husband - he is abusive. And blowing up like this with a young child in the house is totally unacceptable. It’s sad he is grieving but he seems to be using it to unleash all his fury around you and control your relationship so you don’t bring up anything he’s decided is not for discussion. Totally unequal and he seems to have zero interest in any meaningful change.

Tbh i’d say this probably is about way more than his grief - it also coincides with the baby and a big change in your marriage in that way. A lot of men become abusive after a baby is added to the mix as they feel they are no longer ‘number one’ as it were - can be jealous and take that out on their partner.

I have read on here so many examples of people having bad experiences with Relate counselling especially when it comes to recognising abuse in relationships. Don't let the Relate "brand" suggest they're a cut above, if any of the many threads on here are to go by they definitely aren't.

OP

Please give this counsellor the boot now along with reporting him to his organisation. He needs training in abusive relationships and as this has not happened he should not be counselling abused women like you.

Abuse is NOT about communication or a perceived lack of, its about power and control. It’s more accurate to say that sometimes, abusive people also have depression.

People with depression are no less immune to abusive behavior than people without depression. However, when an abusive partner has depression, things get complicated.

Your H may use the same tactics as other abusive people, but they may attempt to obscure the fact by using their depression as an excuse. After all, it’s not abuse if they’re doing it because of their mental health, right?
Wrong.

Depression doesn’t lead to abuse, and not all people with depression are abusive. It’s more accurate to say that sometimes, abusive people also have depression. And if people with depression are capable of controlling behavior, then they are also culpable for it.

'"......that I wasn't listening properly to my husband or giving him airtime to speak.

I'm sorry, but combined with the other things you've said about this counselor, this really chaps my hide! Your solo time should have been about YOU and what you need and want. Not a 'finger wagging' session where (once again) you are told what is 'wrong' with you. What about the fact that H doesn't listen to you? That he speaks to you disrespectfully? That he uses you as an emotional punching bag? But no! It's all about you needing to listen 'better' to him. If I didn't know better, I'd say either this counselor is a friend of his 'in disguise' or H is 'paying him off' to be on his side. Phfffft!

I also think your H is very good at playing the 'victim' and using his MH to his advantage.You simply cannot win with someone like that unless you happen to find a counselor who can see through his machinations. The counselor you're seeing obviously isn't able to do that. He's all about 'fixing' your DH's MH at the expense of yours.

Listen, DH and I went through a rough patch years ago. It took us a few tries to find the right counselor, one who was a fit for both of us. We both felt 'safe' and listened to and there were changes for both of us to make. It's pretty obvious that your counselor is NOT a fit for you! If I were you I'd seek out a counselor of your own. Someone who will help you figure out who you are and what you want.

@DragonflyNights @SpeedwellPurple @AttilaTheMeerkat I'm actually quite shaken up by the whole experience to be honest. The counsellor said in the very same session that he thought perhaps I wasn't being heard by DH and MIL and then a few moments later made the comment about me talking a lot. He said I should talk to my husband but then also said that by instigating difficult conversations and being the more, erm, expressive one I was crowding my husband's voice out. For the record he has never met my husband. I've got a few sessions left but am contacting Relate to say I'm going to be terminating them. With my pay increase from the new job I reckon I can stretch to private counseling a few years ago I would have taken his words as gospel as it was Relate and they have a reputation but today I call bullshit. Also may I just say that a lot of counsellors seem to have remarkably little sympathy for the sheer exhaustion and physical, emotional and financial vulnerability of early parenthood for women who are the "default" parent.

Thanks for sharing your experience about couples counselling. I definitely seem to have landed up with the wrong person. His tendency to advocate so strongly for my husband almost does make me think some strings were pulled or it's a friend of DH in disguise. In reality I suspect he is bringing a tonne of his own biases and life experiences to the table in a not very helpful way.

I would make plans to end this toxic marriage.

Grief and depression don't have to turn into self indulgent churlishness and abusive displays of rage. That is something he has chosen and continues to engage in at home because he thinks your role is to be his punching bag. I'm guessing he manages to function at work without this sort of behaviour.

Next time he punches a wall call the police.

DO NOT do marriage counseling with him. What you are experiencing is abuse.

And dump your useless counselor.

Get someone who is trained in therapy for victims of abuse. The person you're seeing now is only compounding the abuse.

Women's Aid will help you find someone.
0808 2000 247

Or does your workplace offer access to counseling?

Oh God OP please just leave him, he's unstable, has a temper issue and the punching the wall is just so frightening. For socially conservative family say clearly he has mental health issues, is unstable, and you are scared of him. They don't get to dictate your life choices. It's only going to get worse with the idea of an alcoholic mother coming to live with you, which seems imminent, and him having literally zero coping skills to deal with the situation is just going to turn this all into a disaster.

The counsellor I found the most helpful said to me in the first session that starting counselling is a bit like dating at first, or should be at least, in that you aren't committed to continue with a counsellor if it doesn't feel right.

You can be committed to the objective of the process (finding a counsellor who feels like a good fit) without feeling obliged to stick with your first option. It really helped me to frame it like that in my head.

I have read on here so many examples of people having bad experiences with Relate counselling especially when it comes to recognising abuse in relationships. Don't let the Relate "brand" suggest they're a cut above, if any of the many threads on here are to go by they definitely aren't.

If it's anything like my auntie, she worked for relate and is a devout Catholic. So I imagine she would always, always try and get couples to stay together, no matter what their marriage was like. Which isn't good at all if there's abuse.

Briefly, a few points test occurred to me:

punching the wall and swearing at me

This is serious. Coupled with everything else, a deal breaker.

And no, couples should not 'plod along' or 'tiptoe around each other'. Especially since you are doing all the tiptoing. You are always walking on eggshells, anticipating and trying to preempt and prevent his next blowup. This is no way to live, and it's not going to get any better. Even if he were to 'do the work', it would be superficial and the real him would resurface sooner or later. People rarely change.

Your so-called Counselor is incompetent. Find someone who is experienced in therapy relating to emotional abuse and coercion.

Did you protect your flat, ie ring fenced it, before you got married? You need legal advice!

Id also suggest you go back to work full-time sooner rather than later.

OP, you are in a long term abusive relationship and so is your child.

Your posts are so awful.

That counsellor is a disgrace and thank goodness you are terminating your sessions but he should be reported.

Please ask him to leave.

There is NO saving this marriage.

It is long over.

Don't sacrifice yourself and your poor child up to this man.

Ask him to leave now.

Get counselling yourself with someone recommended and I think when he is gone you will fully understand the stress he has put you under for so long with his abuse.

I think my counselor has a similar agenda to your auntie's....
The thing is, I'm actually Christian and as far as I know, in both my denomination and in the Catholic church there no doctrinal requirement for you to stay in a marriage if there is abuse going on. One might even argue that there is a moral responsibility to get out! Unfortunately a LOT of Christians and Catholics think you have to stay married no matter what, and I agree it's a really insidious problem when people with these views end up in pastoral roles or doing counseling for Relate and the like...

I have just read both of your threads.

How would you feel about reading both of them - just your own posts - to write out and compile a list of incidents of his bad behaviour and then take time after to reflect on your feelings about the totality of these?

Many here can see that you are in a classic cliched abusive relationship and not just a “mild” one….

This is a dreadful experience for your baby to have an anxious, preoccupied, hyper vigilant mother who is walking on eggshells to avoid provoking her volatile husband. Your baby is sensing and absorbing every breath, emotion and mood in their home and currently that is all toxic and negative. It will bring stress to your baby and their emotional developmental will be compromised.

This man is also polluting your experience of motherhood. You should have the opportunity to be radiant, confident, delighted and fully engaged and attuned to your baby - but this can’t happen if your headspace is elsewhere.

IMHO this man will not improve - he is a dyed in the wool misogynistic abuser.

When you compile your list you will hopefully realise that you have taken too much for too long. Emotionally detach from him in your head and protect yourself. Get professional support to plot and plan your way out of this relationship safely. Don’t tell him or let him guess what you are exploring.

Family and friends with their own “values” and agendas will not likely be the ones to help you at this time.

Well done for noticing this is wrong, for posting here, for coming back and posting again, for starting with Relate, for knowing that was wrong, for moving on from that, for getting back to work.

You have covered more ground that you realise - but you do need further professional support to guide you through legally, financially and emotionally safely.

So your DH has a problem with you asking to talk and wanting to come up with solutions as you are in his words provoking him.

He also has a problem regarding the relationship between you and his mother.

Lastly he dislikes the 2 bed flat you currently live in. The flat you owned before him.

So as I see it he is moody because you haven’t swept in to fix things for poor old him. I would hazard a guess is that he wants you to say poor you losing your dad and MIL losing her husband and being on her own. Why don’t you bring her over to us so you can be together and we can look after her.

The fact his mother is the way she is, and that your relationship with her is tricky is just one (I’m sure among others) big reason as to why you haven’t said this. He will be kicking himself for previously agreeing you didn’t have to live with his mother, because now he’s in this situation and didn’t have the foresight back then to think ahead to now.

Lastly the living situation, he hates living where you do because it’s all yours from before him so he feels has no leverage over it to insist that his mother does come live with you.

In short he is angry and resentful of the situation and for his lack of control over it. He has hoped that his distress, sulking and bad behaviour would be such that you would swoop in and agree to save him by doing what he wants and agree to having his mother.

It’s not working and therefore he is angry, resentful and frustrated.

None of this is your fault, you are not responsible for his behaviour and you are not responsible for fixing him either. You can not make you DH engage in much needed discussions and I think you’ve given him plenty of understanding. He is not the man you married, if he ever really was that man to start with!!