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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

November 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 21/10/2022 17:16

This is the latest thread, please feel free to write as much or as little as you please.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
AttilaTheMeerkat · 02/03/2023 13:23

Coconut

re your comment:
"Luckily my sister's are both on the same page and we all tolerate her and nothing more".

Would gently suggest you stop with tolerating this crap from your so called mother because it does not help you any and tolerating this will make you feel worse. Would you let a friend treat you like she does, I would hope not and your mother is actually no different.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships anyway and always need a willing enabler to help them, this person here being your dad. He has and will continue to keep throwing you under the bus at your expense and in a straight fight he will choose her over you. He is truly a weak man.

Her laughter is a defence mechanism meant to throw you off track and second guess yourself. She also wants you to think she is not worried and that you are the fool for confronting her.

You are also under no obligation to send a card on Mothers day either to her. I would not bother as she is not worthy of the term. Do something nice for YOU instead.

OP posts:
MonkeyfromManchester · 02/03/2023 16:04

@Sicario totally re the laughing. It’s so belittling.

Mr Monkey is back from the district nurse. He took The Hag to get her face redressed.

She ‘only’ shouted at him once.

MM has a new approach.
“don’t shout at me” firmly.
every time she does it.
she shuts up.
she sulks, but she shuts up.

unfortunately, he has to see her again on Saturday as taking her back for a dressing and then on Monday to check the removal of her facial skin cancer has worked.

then, hopefully, this latest round of health drama will be over.

Shortbread49 · 02/03/2023 17:40

yes I get the laughing it’s a sort of I am always right and you are stupid so I need to put you down, sort of laugh. Mine are always right even when I have proved they are wrong once got told all my teachers and text books were wrong because they couldn’t admit they were wrong and I was right

Coconut80 · 02/03/2023 20:33

Yes she does the laugh generally when she's overstepped the mark and knows it. My sister confronts her and asks why are you laughing nothing is funny but she keeps laughing so I guess that doesn't work either.

Yes to always being right even when written facts stating the fact she is in the wrong are presented. She can't ever be wrong. She is that person who points out spelling mistakes in the menu to uninterested teenagers. Never ever known her to back down.

Why do I take the calls,I guess the way I see it is I've made progress in no longer ever phoning them. I previously phoned every Sunday and wrecked my day so once a month to me is progress. However any contact leaves me triggered,upset and/or irate.

The reason I comply and comply with the farce of family is because deep down I am absolutely terrified of her. She is volatile and her tongue vile and so hurtful. Nothing at all about her has mellowed with age, if anything she has become more poisonous.

What do people here think about the long term health effects of grey rock. I feel I have to hide me,hide every opinion and response to give her no reaction whilst exploding or imploding on the inside. Please don't suggest NC I'm not considering that at the moment but looking at ways to better manage my response.

Thanks to those who get the laugh it's a cackle and an act of aggression I think. Just another vile part of her armoury x

Coconut80 · 02/03/2023 20:38

@Sicario can I ask a personal question and don't answer if you don't want to. I've read lots of your wise and sage words on here. How did you feel when your mother died? Was it relief or was it very conflicted. I'm looking forward to the day I no longer have to deal with mine but also scared of the emotions it might unleash all the flashbacks to her physical and verbal abuse. Or upset about never having a loving mum.
I also fear my dad her enabler dying first and us being left to deal with a hysterical banshee. Yes hysterical we have seen before as she shouted throughout her hated sisters funeral and nearly staggered into the open grave. Sounds like Monty python but sadly did occur.x

Sicario · 02/03/2023 23:33

@Coconut80 - I never "planned" on going No Contact. It just kind of happened spontaneously one day when I was at my mother's house - Toxic Sister was there too just by chance - and I decided I wasn't prepared to put up with any more shit. I walked out and never spoke to or saw any of them since.

My mother's death was initially upsetting, but I think that was due to the awful way my Toxic Sister and BIL behaved, enlisting my kids as flying monkeys which caused no end of upset. Putting things on Facebook which I would then hear about from my friends. (She had defriended and blocked me on her SM many years ago as a punishment for some perceived slight. But of course she had added lots of my friends (and I mean my friends not hers as she had a habit of doing), so I had my friends ringing me to offer me their sympathies about things I hadn't even heard about.

With hindsight I think I was just glad it was all over. The mother being dead simplified everything. I felt a bit sorry for my mother, even though she was a crap mother and downright abusive (violent towards me, but not my sister who came along years later, and unable to regulate herself). But my sister was always a nightmare and I realised one day that she was cut from exactly the same cloth as my mother.

Any grieving I did for my mother was over very very quickly. I didn't love her. I didn't even particularly like her. My relationship with her had been driven by FOG (fear, obligation and guilt). I don't miss her in the slightest. And I feel a lot more relaxed now she's gone. Nothing to feel guilty about any more.

briarhill · 03/03/2023 07:34

@Coconut80 , you asked about the long terms effect of grey-rocking. This is an essay I found on the internet, I believe in Reddit. I think the author did a very insightful job of explaining the long term toll of grey-rocking. I hope it's as helpful to you as it was for me.

The essay from Reddit:

I'm going to be absolutely honest here, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to be anything anyone wants to hear. But it is the truth, so I apologize in advance for any alarm, offense, or upset it might cause.

Grey rocking is absolutely effective, but the thing I think a lot of us overlook or forget is that as a strategy, it's not actually meant for dealing with someone on as intimate a basis as parents, spouse, close friends, etc; it's meant for managing short-term, socially unavoidable, and largely superficial interactions with narcissists 'in the wild', as it were, or for keeping your head down long enough to get away from whatever dangerously abusive situation you're in: until you can get a/another job, or move out, or the divorce or the restraining order goes through, or...

Well. Until you can escape, in other words.

Because here's the thing: human beings are social animals. Bottom line. We simply are not designed or equipped for chronic shutdown of all emotional response or engagement, and on top of this, the constant vigilance grey rock requires, while easy enough to do with practice for an hour or a day, is beyond exhausting to maintain long-term. It's draining in the extreme, and as you have noticed, can lead to unpleasant side effects. You begin to dissociate from your own emotions, because you have effectively placed yourself in a kind of protective bubble, where abuse can't reach you - but neither can any genuine connection. It feels exhausting, empty, hollow, unhealthy, inauthentic, stifling, and emotionally unsatisfying because it is. That's why it works short-term: because functionally speaking, it is meant to starve a parasite.

Unfortunately, it's also starving you, too.

There is no strategic solution for preserving your health and sanity with a narc long-term. It simply is not realistically possible. It's like diving off a ship at sea and then expecting to be able to tread water forever. No matter how strong a swimmer you are, physics always wins: you either make it to shore or you drown.
With a narc, this means either going NC or accepting a life which revolves, in some sense, around the narcissist, because they will never change and you do not have an infinite supply of energy or empathy. So you will always, inevitably, be accruing damage, even if this is in small increments over a long period of time. Because however much you try to limit the blast radius, you are still being exposed to their toxicity. And continuing to engage with them at all ensures that there will always be a next time, when no matter how prepped you are for it, you're going to get another dose of their fallout.

That's it. That's all. And this one simple, brutal, unyielding truth about dealing with toxic people is one of the most difficult things to accept. It's why so many people struggle for years - decades - entire lifetimes - with the horrible decision forced upon us, in which we are obligated to choose between them and us; between staying put and swallowing poison, or walking away to save ourselves.
It sucks. It's depressing, and infuriating, and painful in the extreme. It causes vast amounts of guilt, uncertainty, fear, doubt, anger... you know the drill. I'm preaching to the choir here. There's a reason it's such a fraught decision no one ever makes lightly or without immense suffering.

But I honestly believe it's also the only decision that's ever going to let us heal from the damage they've caused.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's not fair, it's not right, it's not normal, it's not okay - and it's not your fault. Neither is it your responsibility to manage (no matter what I'm sure the toxic person has been telling you for years.) If you're not in therapy right now, please strongly consider it; it can help you make sense of what you're dealing with and give you more perspective on the situation. At the end of the day, whatever you do, the decision is yours and yours alone, and your reasons for it are yours alone as well - no one knows your situation better than you do, and no one has to live your life but you.
Be well. Please take care of yourself. You are worth it.

flapjackfairy · 03/03/2023 09:01

@briarhill
WOW! What an amazingly insightful person the author of that essay is and it is all so v true. .
I can relate to so much of that myself as I am sure many others here can . I just feel so worn down at the moment with it all
I dont post much on here but read every post and I am so grateful for those who share as it makes me feel less alone with it all.
I just feel sad thinking of how much suffering had to be endured by the author to produce such wisdom.

MonkeyfromManchester · 03/03/2023 14:43

@briarhill that’s a brilliant essay. Here as the victims of The Hag we oscillate between being incredibly strong with her or being incredibly strong, but driven mad.

Mr Monkey is working at home today.

The Hag has phoned SIX times. By 1pm. Over fuck all.

Slave Son is available as he’s retired to deal with her shit. One call was about the hospital appointment she has on Monday - no change, so NOT important - but there was an unspoken expectation that MM dash round there immediately to look at the letter. He didn’t, obviously.

A couple of weeks ago, MM had instigated the switch off the phone whilst working rule, but he’s gone back to having it on because of the skin cancer operation. She just refuses to get that he’s WORKING.

MM has now started to tell her that there are going to be changes. There will be.

She will be phoning Slave Son with her endless pointless bleating. SS will filter calls. Anything important will be escalated to MM, if necessary, but they BOTH deal with it. They need to join forces on this shit. The new regime will include SS taking on some of the endless appointments.

SS and MM are going to present it to her in person.

She’s going to hate it, but tough shit.

One of the calls the other week was to update MM (at work) that SS’s usual pub was closing for five days. Seriously, you couldn’t make this shit up.

She’s utterly selfish.

MM is so stressed by her today that he’s made a mistake at work involving a vulnerable person and he’s feeling terrible about it.

All the Hag’s godliness doesn’t run to actually understanding how phoning him is Fucking selfish when he’s got a frontline charity role and mistakes can have consequences.

briarhill · 03/03/2023 19:57

@flapjackfairy , like you I don't post a lot but I read every post and am so grateful for this community and all the wisdom that gets shared here and also for the author of that essay for sharing her or his wisdom borne of pain. Wishing everyone healing and strength. Flowers

Legomum78 · 03/03/2023 20:13

briarhill · 03/03/2023 19:57

@flapjackfairy , like you I don't post a lot but I read every post and am so grateful for this community and all the wisdom that gets shared here and also for the author of that essay for sharing her or his wisdom borne of pain. Wishing everyone healing and strength. Flowers

Me too. It's so heartening to know it's not just me. My covert narc mother hasn't spoken to me for two weeks since she hung up on me when I called to see how she is. I've felt so much calmer in these few weeks I'm thinking I need to go NC but it's difficult as I'm from a large family and live local to get (she moved to the same area but has visited about twice in the last year.)

She's asthmatic and allergic to all furry pets. We're looking at getting a dog 🤣

DavesSpareDeckChair · 03/03/2023 20:46

Just wanted to say a quick thank you to everyone on this thread, especially Attila and Monkey way back in November - sorry I've left it so long to reply! I'm trying to get my thoughts in order. I'm seriously starting to think about getting some sort of therapy but I have literally no idea where to start.

Coconut80 · 03/03/2023 22:56

@Sicario @briarhill thankyou very much for answering. @Sicario yes I understand what you are saying about the grief and that's reassuring. Bloody FB I've blocked my mum but she has befriended friends of mine and relishes telling me how they are and what superior humans to me they are.
My relationship with my mother is pure FOG and I look forward to when I don't have to deal with her or her 51 years of relentlessly criticising me.

@briarhill gosh that hits hard I'm going to screenshot that and give it more thought. It's absolutely brutally true though isn't it,much as I kid myself it is so true. Love the blast from the toxic radius. You can't protect yourself from it and she tries to cause the biggest blast possible. Thankyou for your kind words and understanding. It is so lovely to feel validated and understood by people who get it. Instead of trotting out she's an old woman,she's your mum etc etc.

I'm not getting any therapy I know I need it. I feel such guilt at my severe dislike for her I feel bad even typing it. She has fucked me up good and proper.

Love to you all dealing with such people xxx

Shortbread49 · 04/03/2023 00:01

Facebook I also had to block mine as even though she takes no interest in me was using it as a source of information for her criticism was clearly on it all the time to see what me and my friends were doing , then I got a friend request if someone I didn’t recognise turned out to be my dad under an alias so she could find out that way for a few more snide comments. I did a degree they took no interest at all were rude when I got it did not come to my graduation but anyone else who does a degree is wonderful and I get told all about it !

Legomum78 · 04/03/2023 07:24

So...

I've not spoken to my covert narc mother for the last two weeks after she hung up on me (following a 49 second 'conversation') when I called to check in on her. The silent treatment is and always has been her modus operandi.

I'm at the start of therapy to support me on my journey to a better place and all I know is that in the last two weeks I've felt calmer and less anxious than I have for years.

I've already swerved 'commands' to attend a Mother's Day get together for her (I'm a mother too and am spending the day with my family) and thought I would just send her flowers but now, since I've had no contact, I'm wondering if I even do that. I don't want her to interpret it as me giving in to her.

Please can I have your wise thoughts?

flapjackfairy · 04/03/2023 08:08

@Legomum78
Surely she will see that as a victory ! So no I wouldn't send flowers.
if you feel you must send something then send the smallest card with no mushy verse but rather blank inside and just sign your name. That speaks volumes imo. It is what I do now with the toxic member of my family that I am unable to.completely cut off ( not my mother in this case ).

MonkeyfromManchester · 04/03/2023 08:30

@Legomum78 where do these people get off?!?! Honestly, you can’t make it up, can you? Yep, I second the smallest card possible and spending time with people you loved rather than people you feel obliged to, because society prefers us to think families are everything. I love thé gay writer Armisted Maupin and his idea of the logical family, rather than the one we’re lumbered with. Great news on therapy. I think just even having someone listening is beneficial, but getting the support of someone qualified and skilled is so incredibly helpful and strengthening.

@DavesSpareDeckChair I’m a part qualified counsellor - it must speak volumes that I was set to do my next level of training to become fully qualified is something I gave up because the Hag was driving me mad - so, here are some tips.

check out the BACP website, it’s the governing body of counsellors and psychotherapists. It’s got info on what counselling is, processes etc and a membership directory which you can look at based on specialisms and location. You can try out counsellors with a free 30 minute session to see if you click.

Find someone who’s experienced in abuse because then you’re very unlikely to have to deal with a woman in a naice scarf and beads telling you that you can make peace with a fucked up family. As we all know as jaded individuals with batshit toxicity in our families that this is impossible.

@Coconut80 I think we need lobby Mark Zuckerberg to get these people OFF Facebook. That’s absolutely horrible of your mum. Yes, get therapy if you can. It’s made me stronger. Mr Monkey is going back to counselling in April because his mother aka The Hag is being particularly vile at the moment. hugs to you.

@Shortbread49 WTAF. I take it your dad is her enabler? I just don’t get what goes on in people’s brains sometimes.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/03/2023 09:27

Legomum

Would not bother sending flowers or even a card (but if you do send this it needs to be the plainest with no words inside card you've ever set eyes on). Your mother is not worthy of the term let alone spending time, money and effort on such things.

Do something nice for you instead and do not feel further obligated by societal pressures to send such items. Many companies nowadays give an opt out to people who do not wish to hear about mothers day/fathers day etc.

And indeed get a dog.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/03/2023 09:35

As social networking sites are rampant with opportunities for self-promotion and ego-boosting, these platforms may be particularly alluring for narcissists. Studies have indeed shown that narcissism is associated with high levels of Facebook
use.

This reference from reddit is good:
It is a breeding ground for supply. They can go after multiple sources at once as well as triangulate, gain attention, and appear however they want to. They’re all over social media and pretty easy to spot too. Constantly seeking approval through likes and love bombing everyone, bragging about their accomplishments, posting photos of themselves or status updates that make them look great. Playing the victim by sharing troubles, using other people to get empathy and attention, it is the epitome of a false image. They stalk people and filter out who would be good supply for them.

OP posts:
MonkeyfromManchester · 04/03/2023 10:37

@AttilaTheMeerkat that’s so true re social media. It’s an absolute supply fest.

The Hag isn’t on social media. I can’t even imagine the ends to which she’d use it if she was. What was so hilarious was Mr Monkey - still in a bit of a deluded state - doing an update about her recovery from what was probably Covid in early 2020 on Facebook to his wider family, basically, with lots of tagging. She kept asking was anyone asking about her on Facebook. She kept asking for months.

The Hag asked MM if he would take a photograph of her post minor surgery for skin cancer face the other day. She wanted a physical photo. FUCK KNOWS.

MM had a terrible day with her yesterday - six horrible calls before 1pm - which caused him to make an error about a domestic violence case - the woman is OK, thankfully - and didn’t sleep much last night because of feeling really bad about the mistake and stressed to fuck by his bitch of a Narc mother. MM doesn’t make mistakes, he’s really on top of his job.

We were supposed to be going to an exhibition and out for lunch today, but he’s too tired. he’s knackered, and I’m so fucked off. He is going to tell The Hag about the error as maybe she will actually understand that some of the issues he deals with at work are actually life and death and that being phoned constantly is really, really, really shit. Trying to tap into her faux Good Catholic persona. He will, of course, have to endure all the hand wringing, but this constant phoning when he’s at work has to stop. Actually, I think she might phone him more during the week than at the weekend. Sick in the head.

Anotherporkypie · 04/03/2023 11:16

An update for me of sorts It’s nearly 3 weeks now since I think I went NC and told them I wanted nothing more to do with them . It wasn’t planned , I received an email from my mum “reminding “ me about all the material things my dad had done ( which are admittedly extensive and far more than most) - I think in the main because they can afford it but mainly because they equate material things with their version of love . I found a term for it “well meaning but emotionally neglected themselves” WMBENT .
But when the chips are down ,when they have hurt they can’t bring themselves to apologise or accept the hurting caused by their victim blaming .

He accused me of abusing them. When what I did was walk away and put boundaries in place .

The first week or so of NC was very hard . This week less hard though looking back . I also started weight watchers again this week . It’s good doing something for myself . The weekly meeting was good . I have an achievable goal to concentrate on, something I have control over and for me .

Mother’s Day is approaching . I do not plan to send a card.

Thelnebriati · 04/03/2023 11:28

Anotherporkypie You might find it helps to do something nice for yourself this year on Mothers Day, and to keep busy. It does get easier.

Leaningovermygrave · 04/03/2023 11:35

It feels comforting here just knowing I’m not alone. Here is a similar story I have seen somewhere. It isn’t mine but it helped a little...

A father said to his daughter, "You just graduated, and I bought this car a while ago for you. It is a few years old. But before I give it to you I want you to take it to a used car dealer in the city and see how much they think it is worth.”
.
The girl returned to her father and said, "They offered me $1000 because it looks very old".
.
The father said, "Go back to town and see what a pawn shop says it's worth".
.
The girl returns to her father and says, "The pawn shop offered $100 because it is a very old car and a lot of investment will be needed to drive it again"
.
Then the father asked his daughter to join a passionate car club with experts, and show them the car.

.
The girl drove the car to the passionate car club, and when she returned to her father she told him, “Some people in the club offered me $100,000 because it is a rare car that is in good condition, with great capabilities and super difficult to find".
.
Then the father said to his daughter, "I wanted to teach you a lesson. When you are valued properly, you are in the right place. If you are not appreciated, do not be angry, that means you are in the wrong place. Don't stay in a place where no one sees your value".

Thatsasmashingblouseyouvegoton · 05/03/2023 13:27

Re mothers day:
I get mum a very generic card. No best mum or lovely mum crap.
This year we are taking her and mil for a Sunday lunch (because I want to go!) And that'll be that 1.5/2 hours max. On my terms.

@MonkeyfromManchester why does your dh still answer his phone during work hours?
Can he put a voice mail message on it? Or get a cheap nokia payg phone just for her? Tell her it's his new number, but it's just for her to phone? Then keep it off during work hours?
I realise he shouldn't have to do any of that but...

Labourthepoint · 05/03/2023 15:18

briarhill · 03/03/2023 07:34

@Coconut80 , you asked about the long terms effect of grey-rocking. This is an essay I found on the internet, I believe in Reddit. I think the author did a very insightful job of explaining the long term toll of grey-rocking. I hope it's as helpful to you as it was for me.

The essay from Reddit:

I'm going to be absolutely honest here, and I'm pretty sure it's not going to be anything anyone wants to hear. But it is the truth, so I apologize in advance for any alarm, offense, or upset it might cause.

Grey rocking is absolutely effective, but the thing I think a lot of us overlook or forget is that as a strategy, it's not actually meant for dealing with someone on as intimate a basis as parents, spouse, close friends, etc; it's meant for managing short-term, socially unavoidable, and largely superficial interactions with narcissists 'in the wild', as it were, or for keeping your head down long enough to get away from whatever dangerously abusive situation you're in: until you can get a/another job, or move out, or the divorce or the restraining order goes through, or...

Well. Until you can escape, in other words.

Because here's the thing: human beings are social animals. Bottom line. We simply are not designed or equipped for chronic shutdown of all emotional response or engagement, and on top of this, the constant vigilance grey rock requires, while easy enough to do with practice for an hour or a day, is beyond exhausting to maintain long-term. It's draining in the extreme, and as you have noticed, can lead to unpleasant side effects. You begin to dissociate from your own emotions, because you have effectively placed yourself in a kind of protective bubble, where abuse can't reach you - but neither can any genuine connection. It feels exhausting, empty, hollow, unhealthy, inauthentic, stifling, and emotionally unsatisfying because it is. That's why it works short-term: because functionally speaking, it is meant to starve a parasite.

Unfortunately, it's also starving you, too.

There is no strategic solution for preserving your health and sanity with a narc long-term. It simply is not realistically possible. It's like diving off a ship at sea and then expecting to be able to tread water forever. No matter how strong a swimmer you are, physics always wins: you either make it to shore or you drown.
With a narc, this means either going NC or accepting a life which revolves, in some sense, around the narcissist, because they will never change and you do not have an infinite supply of energy or empathy. So you will always, inevitably, be accruing damage, even if this is in small increments over a long period of time. Because however much you try to limit the blast radius, you are still being exposed to their toxicity. And continuing to engage with them at all ensures that there will always be a next time, when no matter how prepped you are for it, you're going to get another dose of their fallout.

That's it. That's all. And this one simple, brutal, unyielding truth about dealing with toxic people is one of the most difficult things to accept. It's why so many people struggle for years - decades - entire lifetimes - with the horrible decision forced upon us, in which we are obligated to choose between them and us; between staying put and swallowing poison, or walking away to save ourselves.
It sucks. It's depressing, and infuriating, and painful in the extreme. It causes vast amounts of guilt, uncertainty, fear, doubt, anger... you know the drill. I'm preaching to the choir here. There's a reason it's such a fraught decision no one ever makes lightly or without immense suffering.

But I honestly believe it's also the only decision that's ever going to let us heal from the damage they've caused.

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It's not fair, it's not right, it's not normal, it's not okay - and it's not your fault. Neither is it your responsibility to manage (no matter what I'm sure the toxic person has been telling you for years.) If you're not in therapy right now, please strongly consider it; it can help you make sense of what you're dealing with and give you more perspective on the situation. At the end of the day, whatever you do, the decision is yours and yours alone, and your reasons for it are yours alone as well - no one knows your situation better than you do, and no one has to live your life but you.
Be well. Please take care of yourself. You are worth it.

Wow! That absolutely hit the nail on the head. It’s what’s been happening to me. What’s the alternative then?

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