Have any of you married your "lover"?

[MoreSpamThanGlam]

What I mean is, have you been the other woman and he left and then you got married?

Or have you/are you the other woman?

AND - does this mean that you are a troll of the relationship type (marriage wrecker/evil queen).

Actually, don't know if the wives suffered, haven't met them. I don't think the kids suffered, they are certainly happy and well adjusted now (one chose to live with her dad and new wife as soon as she was old enough to make the decision).

The heartache I was talking about was the men's who really agonised about doing the 'right thing' or going with the person they loved...

Children get hurt, it's how that hurt is dealt with.

A separation is immediate and painful, a child will go through this in other ways if not through divorce. The most damaging part comes after. I have seen children suffer more through an adults reactions to trauma than the actual trauma of an affair.

I just have to agree with blueshoes that 'most' children are NOT fine with divorce. It is HUGE for them. Much huger than the loss of a partner that the adult experiences. I just think that can get lost sometimes in the mix. Even the most amicable divorce can be devastating to a child; of course most adapt. Because they have to, don't they?

Yes they do, they can though.

They can't when everyone is telling them they can't.

Wow this is still going on. Couldnt get on much yesterday as computer being very slow!!

I think there is a lock of support gererally for couples who are going through a rough patch - it is very difficult to get to see a relate counsellor at a convient time. When we were having our troubles we managed to get a solicitor the next day and were told we would be on a waiting list for relate!!

Whilst this site is great for support we need more real life support when people are going through problems and not the lover thinking they are in some way helping. Real help would be backing off waiting a while and not jumping into bed and confusing sex/lust for the love of their life. This only stops any real help for the marriage to work.

We all need to support marriage and recognise that it is not easy at times.

Emotions do run high and often all involved are not really in a state to make an informed decision about where they really want their life to go.

fairyfly "They can't when everyone is telling them they can't."

Couldn't agree more. I've seen examples of this from grandparents who kept telling their grandchildren how much they were suffering and how terrible their life was because of a separation/divorce. Once the grandparents stopped making such a big deal out of things (and essentially forcing the children to grieve for their old life), the children could move on into their new life.

Honoria - do you really think that it is divorce that causes suffering - or relationship breakdown?

anna, it is not on for grandparents to speak to their grandchildren like that. Totally inappropriate. The grandchildren do not need to be made even more anxious or carry guilt for what is essentially their parents' and grandparents' issues.

No doubt relationship breakdown of their parent's marriage in itself causes distress in children. But I think it is only on permanent separation or divorce when it really hits home. I speak from personal experience. My first inclination of my parents' troubles was when I was 12 and my mother started ranting about "that woman". Up to that point, I know my mother (SAHM) had her frustrations, but I had no idea that my mother and father were unhappy with each other. They weren't lovey dovey but that is no unusual in marriages of that time, as compared with my friends' parents' marriages. It hit me for six because I knew divorce would mean big big changes in my life. I would not say I was a particularly insensitive person. I just don't think children go around sniffing as to whether their parents' marriage is happy.

That is why I am a big advocate that parents BEHAVE when they are separating. It really does make a big difference as to how children experience the separation and divorce and eventually move on.

blueshoes - yes, I completely agree that people need to try to behave well when ending relationships (just as they need to try to behave well at all other times).

Most people behave a lot better, and are better parents, when they are in supportive relationships. Which is why I really don't buy the concept of "relationship moratorium" during relationship breakdown/divorce. IME (and like I have said, I have lots of examples around me) the people who behave best are the ones who are rebuilding their lives constructively in supportive relationships, not the ones who harbour lingering resentment or a misguided moral code that tells them that they "should" be a single parent for the good of their children for a few years.

Relationships do break down, sadly, largely because large swathes of the population grow up with terrible role models. I really wish that society as a whole was better at educating children about healthy couple relationships. I fear we have a very, very long way to go.

I am not insisting on a single parenthood moratorium for any prescribed length of time, much less years. I can imagine situation where both parents have agreed the marriage is not working, and that they are going to separate and eventually, once the paperwork has gone through, divorced and custody arrangements sorted. And it could be that in the midst of the tortous process, one party meets another and love blooms.

I would still prefer that this party not bring the new partner home or rub the new relationship in the face of sone-to-be ex-spouse. But it is not a big deal because somewhere along the line the decision was made by the couple that this are going to formally separate. That is playing fair. That is mature and responsible.

But not when one party is unhappy, does not formally bring up the issue of separation with the spouse or thrash out an agreement. Goes out and has affairs hoping that it will work out and then when it does work out (woohoo - safety net), drop the bombshell on the other spouse and family. This situation is a lot more common that the first. And leads to feelings of betrayal and acrimony. And is frankly selfish, immature, immoral and irresponsible to both the spouse, family, as well as the other woman.

I really don't think that anyone having affairs is thinking of one moment that they are giving themselves a "safety net".

It is just not calculated. Humans are relational creatures - we seek relationship and love and we seek sex. When we aren't getting those things in one relationship, we feel a loss, and want to find those things. That is just natural.

Yes we can fight those natural urges (by having some sort of moratorium) but I'm not sure that is particularly healthy.

Is it relationship breakdown that causes children misery, or the stress of relative poverty?

I have a friend who recently got back with his wife and his daughter is inconsolable because she was really happy having their 100% attention every other weekend. He said that their relationship with their daughter was the best it's ever been when they were living singly in flats!

i agree with mp people dont go looking for relationships when they are married they most often start insidiously and randomly

usually i guess as friends..someone to talk to

its the lack of communication in the primary relatioinship that may leave someone open to making a friendship develop outside

morningpaper, if you subscribe to a moral code of any sort, I think you will accept that at times, you will have to curb your natural urges eg not steal just because you really really want that wii.

I don't buy that people fall into relationships against their will. They might have feelings for another which they cannot control having, but they don't have to act on them. Human beings always have a choice NOT to have affairs. Of course, it is also human nature that some are weaker and some are stronger about resisting temptation, but it does not excuse the conduct.

A moral code includes not doing something that would hurt an encumbent spouse and your children until at least an agreement has been reached to separate and unravel the relationship.

blueshoes - "drop the bombshell" - how many people think they are "safe" because they are married?

Judging from MN, it's still fairly common, despite all the evidence to the contrary around us, for women to think that because they have that ring on their finger, their relationship doesn't require nurturing. I'm sure you have read threads too where women who don't want to have sex with their husbands think that it is OK to insist that their husband stay faithful to a sexless marriage? Threads where lives are organised such that the couple never spend time together just being and wonder why they are so stressed?

Relationships are often much less healthy than people like to think or admit to. So - is it really a "bombshell" when one party has an affair? Or is it not, much more often, that one party refused to acknowledge that a relationship is unhealthy?

The touble with affairs is that often one partner feels they are in a supportive loving realationship. I dont think the betrayed spouse is niave in thinking that their marriage is perfect but so often what happens is one spouse is trying to work out what is wrong in the 'right' way whilst the other is out having 'affairs' and then actively decieving the other that there is nothing wrong.

It should not matter that the marriage was not good - it was not good for either party surely but it how each handles it and in my experience one deals with it by having the affair but is too selfish and has such little repect for the other to even tell the truth and allow the other to make up their own mind.

That is where the anger comes from when one spouse is willing to 'work' things out but the other has taken into their own hands (or not - but into anothers underwear!!!). to sort it out.

Children do get hurt as it is not just the wife/husband/partner who is lied to. People in these situations seem incapable of telling the truth to anyone - even themselves at times. The only people who do know the truth are those in the affair and they are not prepared for whatever reason to stand up like decent humans and give others a chance.

People often slate the wife for sticking by her cheating husband - but as can be seen it is not as easy as all that.

I for one have fourght hard to keep my family together - i dont think i would be any happier without him and i am sure my 4 children would not both materially and emotionally. I hate the fact that the ow and her friends see me as weak individal who 'allowed' myself to be treated badly. I am a mother first now and i could not have lived with myself if i had 'thrown' their daddy out for a stupid mistake (and that is the way he sees it now too).

I am not weak or pathetic - i have learned an awful lot about what is importat to me and i will never do to anyone what was done to me - and i do believe my children will have learnt a lot about how to conduct themselves and about forgivness.

What good would it be for us to split up and never forgive him - it would only bring misery that could last a long time.

Anna, I used the word 'drop the bombshell' precisely for the reason that sometimes the other innocent spouse is completely taken flatfooted. Whether it is denial or truly a case of being wronged, it does not matter. Why can't the adulterer thrash it out explicity first and raise his concerns about lack of sex, being taken for granted etc?

Just because someone is in denial does not mean the other party is free to go off and act on impulses that lead to affairs.

Of course you will say that is unrealistic. I would agree that a lot of people fall short. But that does not stop me from adhering to an ideal that is morally unambiguous.

Of course, a wedding ring does not guarantee life long happiness. Yes, people have to continuously work at a relationship. And that includes being brave enough to raise uncomfortable issues that are making you unhappy BEFORE throwing in the moral towel.

Just read some of the last post - yes i am sure some children do get more attention from seperated parents but that may also be because there is not another partner on the scence taking some of the attention.

But do we really want to promot single families as a way forward?

blueshoes - I think plenty of people do raise their concerns and find they fall on deaf ears. What can be a perfect and supportive relationship for one party (who is receiving all the support) can be an exhausting and draining relationship for the other (who is doing all the supporting) and, eventually tired of asking for something for him/herself, ends up looking for it elsewhere.

I'm not saying things are always that way.

But I really, truly do not believe that the person who first leaves a relationship (however he/she does that) is always the guilty party.

Also, it is common for marriages and relationships to go through ups and downs. For example, the arrival of a baby, the death of a parent, the loss of a job. Marriage is about supporting your spouse, even though he or she is pushing you away because of external problems. Yes, the innocent spouse would know that the relationship is not perfect at that time. But to then justify that a reason to be cheated on because she is in denial!! [disbelief]

HW - no, we don't . Single parent families are not good for anyone IMO, though of course people who find themselves in that very difficult situation deserve plenty of support.

anna, I can sympathise with that situation. If things fall on deaf ears despite numerous attempts at discussion and resolution, then at some point, the frustrated party might very well decide to leave. Well then say so. Take steps to end things, as best as you can. It will probably be an acrimonious process, but there is no justification for bringing an affair into the mix. That is just going to make things much worse. I don't think the children will thank the exiting parent for that.

with you there blueshoes. I would like to meet the couple in the perfect marriage. Too many other stresses are around and my point is there is not enough support from society as a whole and that an 'acceptance' that affairs are just a symptom of a bad marriage and that they are not really our problem.

Too many of us stick our heads in the sand - i have heard so many times 'well affairs happen all the time' so what can we do about it?

I truely believe if i was approached by a married man i would tell him to go home and talk to his wife and he should think himself lucky that i dont go round there.

That is not to say i am a prude and love to flirt but there is a line that should not be crossed.

If the concerns go on deaf ears then there may be a problem but what i thinks hurts more is not the breakdown of the relationship as such but the deciet that has to be created around an affair and i do think that is what makes them so much more attractive to a point.

Who would sleep with a married man if he said 'ill just phone my wife - she wont mind as i am not getting at home anyway'.

The ow/om is also lied to because they dont want to believe the marriage is actually ok and probably fairly normal.

Of course there are terrible marriages but i doubt very much that is the norm. These surely would fail anyway without the need for an affair?

marriages do fail because they are terrible but sometimes they don't just tidily end..all sorts of things can happen..mine didn't fizzle out in an organized way it dramatically fell apart in a totally uncontrolled and scary fashion

You know if DH came to me today and said "you know im really not happy, I think we should split" although I would be devastated and angry, eventually I would come to terms with it and respect him for his honesty.

If because he was unhappy he started an affair - I would think he was gutless & spineless moron.

I think 95% of people who cheat and get into a new relationship will cheat again, a smaller % may never do it again - if you have grown up with a bad example from your parents then your expectations of a relationship are different...if you have low self esteem then you will bolster it however you can.

I guess the reason we often blame the "other woman" is that we kind of expect men to behave in this way "men will be men" but we have a perception that women should have more empathy towards other women, in reality both are equally to blame.

Despite the opportunity I never got involved with a married man because "if hes willing to cheat on her, then hes just not GOOD ENOUGH for me"

"I think plenty of people do raise their concerns and find they fall on deaf ears. What can be a perfect and supportive relationship for one party (who is receiving all the support) can be an exhausting and draining relationship for the other (who is doing all the supporting) and, eventually tired of asking for something for him/herself, ends up looking for it
elsewhere."

That's very true Anna. I have known a few relationships that have broken down and the person who has wanted to "stay" has said things like "No we weren't happy but we still could have stayed married" - as though the need to be married is more important that the actual relationship.

Having such a NEEDY spouse is a bloody nightmare. Frankly you become not much more than a carer. I think that's why it's REALLY important to have a life outside of your family/marriage - to be an individual person in your own right with your own support networks, friends and interests.

I lived with a very needy spouse and it was like a constant weight on my shoulders. Yes there are things you can work through but there are also situations where frankly, you just grow into completely different people and are not suited any more. I am all for working through problems and suffering 'bad years' - I'm sure I have spent more time in relationship counselling than most people on this thread - but if you feel trapped in a marriage with the "wrong person" then it is a very dark and lonely place to be.

IME most affairs start from simple loneliness and misery and the need for a companion. Getting out of a crap marriage/relationship is a really hard thing to do by yourself, with no support from anyone (and frankly, if you are the person doing the 'leaving', then no one DOES want to offer you support).

I had several affairs when I was married - and several of my ex-lovers are now really close friends. Some of them helped me through really dark times in my life and provided me with a lot of support.

Of course it was still a shit thing to do to my ex-husband, and hurt and damaged my ex-husband a great deal. I want to say "And yes it was morally wrong" but when I think of the loving sex I had with some of my lovers, I find that hard to say. I find the "one cock for one vagina!" model of marriage, where you have set periods of 'separation' between each sexual relationship frankly a bit confusing. Sex has generally been an extension of the love I've felt for people in very confused and emotional circumstances. I am very envious of those of you who can separate the two things so cleanly. Frankly I have always found the whole arena blurry and messy.