Friend with very different moral code to me

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Would you remain friends?

I've asked questions about this friend before and given lots of detail. I'm not going to do that now, even though much more has come to light, as people may just yell "you're over invested" or "you're a nosey parker" than give practical advice.

I've had about three get-togethers with her over the past month and have kept the chat light and social, and tried to deflect or grey rock if she brings up these topics. I've known her for 35 years, we met at nursery school.

Would you stay friends with someone who is completely at odds with your own moral standards (and those of the rest of your mates)? Or would you live and let live and just meet for chats, coffee etc and leave it there?

And btw. I implore you to NOT ask her why she is seeing men like this blablabla
Seeing your post, I pretty sure she would know how much you are judging her about that. She would end up feeling even more crap about it, guilty whatever. It would hurt her more than not talking about it.
You are right that it’s best to leave to her therapist.

She could be being paid for that sort of thing…

I don't think she is. The guys are all on benefits.

So yes she is holding a lot of trauma that she hasn’t processed and it’s the way it’s coming out.

I have been like this. It was a symptom of the deeper issues I had rather than a ‘r temperament’ thing that meant I’m just weak and emotional for no reason at all.
Because yes I was more emotional than you would expect but there were/are reasons for it.

Also, not sure how you can tell that she isn’t talking to her therapist about this ‘huge issue with having phone sex with men’. I’m pretty sure you aren’t there. There is no reason why your friend would tell you everything she talks to with her therapist. AND she might not need to talk about it with her therapist anyway. I suspect she has much bigger and deeper issues than that.

You been judgemental” though…. Nit sure there is a ‘cure’ for that.

It sounds to me that she has low self esteem and insecurity and is doing this to get attention and relieve boredom, as she is a long standing friend and she is not disparaging me I would keep her as a friend

@AsterixInEngland She's been like that all her life. It's nothing new, Crying I mean.

You have a friend going through a mental health crisis who is engaging in compulsive, high-risk, self-injurious behaviour.

It's entirely typical: some people do it with drugs or alcohol, some with physical harm, some with hyper sexuality, some with other forms of dangerous behaviour, like climbing precarious structures or driving too fast on empty roads. It gives a distraction, a thrill, and a dopamine hit, and it leaves the person feeling worse afterwards, which creates a cycle. It's a horrible, terrible, but entirely predictable outcome of mental health crises.

As such, it is better to frame it as a form of self-harm, not a moral issue. That doesn't mean that you have to continue to meet with her. But it does mean that you should frame it in your head as someone who might be physically hurting themselves due to mental health issues. Which is to say, not something that it's your responsibility to fix or even to engage with, but something that isn't useful to judge.

It sounds like you just don’t understand mental health issues. If you can’t accept you don’t understand it, and instead just judge her for it, then walk away from the friendship for her sake, she doesn’t need you.

No. Shared moral values are at the very core of friendships.

Thank you for this insight. I think you're right. Someone below your post said they think I just don't understand mental health issues - well I probably don't, I am just Joanne Public, not a mental health practitioner. This explanation does help me to frame it better.

I know someone who’s daughter did something quite similar to this. She had bipolar. It didn’t end well at all. Have you actually spoken frankly to your friend and told her how concerned you are and offer to help her reach out for further professional support?

Difficult situation but I wouldn’t frame this as her moral compass, she’s engaging in self destructive behaviour to gain some kind of satisfaction but I doubt it’s sexual satisfaction.

but is she actually talking to you about it?

i have a friend involved in poly stuff. It’s all grim and surrounds a harem of women trying to be friends as they are all simultaneously the partner of an ugly bloke who identifies as a ‘dom’ (how groundbreaking). He seeks out women with low self esteem and mental health issues.

I’ve told my friends my thoughts, and how I don’t want to hear about it. If she tries, I make a face and just say ‘you know my thoughts…’ and will give her some non committal advice

It barely comes up. I’d be, and I have been there in a heartbeat when she is sick, needs support or wants to go out and have fun- but I draw the line at hearing this nonsense as it is NOT making her happy

HNRTT but fwiw I'm not sure it is helpful to link your opinion about her engagement with and benefit from online counselling with her other behaviour. The brain isn't complicated like a watch when a leads to b leads to c. It is complex with a somewhat unpredictable and tenuous link between MH intervention and result and most behavioural therapies have a cohort who don't directly and quickly benefit.

regarding the behaviour, I think the PP @Nancydrawn has a helpful contribution.

It doesn't sound like she has different moral standards, though. It sounds like she has very poor mental health and is conducting herself in a way she may well regret when she recovers.

I don't think her actions in themselves are a reason to distance yourself as a friend, because she's unwell. However, there's a saying that you should put on your own lifejacket first, and it applies in this scenario. If you can be there for her, great, but not if it is hurting your own mental health.

I think drawing boundaries is also really important - as you know she's in therapy, it's OK for you to say, 'Thank you for trusting me with this, but I don't know how to support you. I bet your therapist would really like to know, and they're a much wiser person than I am. How do you feel about telling them, and then letting me know how that conversation goes afterwards?'

It's not about abandoning her, it's about redirecting her to someone who can help her better, and supporting her (to the extent you can) with how she gets that help. Stepping back without really stepping back too far, if you know what I mean.

I second what @Nancydrawn has said, it's not your responsibility to fix this issue your friend has or provide listening services and I know, from personal experience, it can be very wearing listening to someone continually indulging in self defeating behaviour but expecting sympathy from people who care.

Perhaps this is sympathy fatigue. Take a break from her. She has theraputic support so you aren't abandoning her if it's guilt that's stopping you doing what's best for you.

I don't think I'd cut her out because of that, no. I think I'd be strongly encouraging her to talk about it with her therapist for sure.

I have friends who have sexual and relationship practices that are not to my taste and are, in my opinion, unhealthy. IMO none of us are perfect (how boring), and I know I have weaknesses and blind spots too, they just happen to not be the same ones as theirs. My friends and I help each other out by shining a light on things that we think they could grow through and offering help and support. Some of these things are more sensitive than others and some will take longer than others to be recognised and dealt with. We're all just walking each other home.

I really appreciate the considered responses. Far more helpful than "you're over invested" "get a hobby" "you're no friend to her" and so on. I've been able, through the last few posts, to clearly link this strange behaviour to mental health issues. My friend has been in two long term committed relationships since the age of 15 and a very short engagement in between until 2 years ago, and says that both her partners didn't take her seriously and gaslit her. Perhaps this behaviour is a way of taking back control, as she sees it anyway.

Or engineering situations that give her a sexual frisson but are ultimately "safe" because she knows they're going nowhere.

She'll be a terrible domme but that's neither here nor there.

You aren't obliged to listen to it.

I met with her to watch Strictly last night, very difficult for her to focus on it. She's got her therapy on Monday afternoon. She told me she tells me more information than anyone but she tells the counsellor even more. I hope she's opening up about this.

I've read all your updates on this thread and I probably wouldn't cut her out, but I'd just be there for her if she needs to talk.

She's obviously struggling mentally and is doing all those things as a way of distracting herself. It's toxic but I think she knows that.

It's hard for you because on one hand, you want to be a good friend and be there for her. On the other hand, you don't want to get in so deep that it starts affecting your mental health as well.

I tried to but she got very nasty if I didn't agree with her views and started ghosting me and being personal and attacking me so I had to leave it

Yes, we had a chat last night, as she started her therapy again yesterday, told me she was in floods of tears again, and told the therapist that because she is crying, and and depressed, she feels worthless. I'd say that engaging in sexual messaging with strangers would exacerbate that, even though she might not realise it. I hope she will, in time.

She explained that for someone who's depressed, like her, their minds think differently (clinical depression, not just a bit fed up) so it's hard for someone like me to understand. This might help me to stop getting so frustrated and annoyed with the endless stream of blokes (what is worthless, IMO, is wasting time talking to them as it achieves nothing). If I see that behaviour as a symptom of her illness, rather like a cough is a symptom of a cold, I think I might be able to be more understanding.

We've planned a lunch date in a few weeks when we both have some time simultaneously, I'm actually looking forward to getting her to go into town.