Friend with very different moral code to me

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Would you remain friends?

I've asked questions about this friend before and given lots of detail. I'm not going to do that now, even though much more has come to light, as people may just yell "you're over invested" or "you're a nosey parker" than give practical advice.

I've had about three get-togethers with her over the past month and have kept the chat light and social, and tried to deflect or grey rock if she brings up these topics. I've known her for 35 years, we met at nursery school.

Would you stay friends with someone who is completely at odds with your own moral standards (and those of the rest of your mates)? Or would you live and let live and just meet for chats, coffee etc and leave it there?

Since we’re palying guesssing game, here’s the list of things I’d stay / wouldn’t stay as a friend:

Cheating?
Yes, I’d remain as a friend, as long as I’m not used as an alibi.

Abusing her family member or pets?
No.

Stealing from an elderly relative?
No.

Drug use?
No.

Cheating on taxes?
Yeah.

Anti LGBTQIA, racist, bigot, misogynystic?
No.

Has a horrible man in her life that se protects?
No.

I think a lot of what she is doing is linked to having anxiety /depression. It provides a temporary boost but doesn't actually assist in her overall well-being. It's a spiral where the attention lifts her for a brief period of time and then she crashes again. It's very hard to cope with a person who has these issues and maybe you aren't the best person to listen, not be judgemental but be supportive. I don't mean that in a harsh way, we can't all be everything to everybody.

Cheating?
Yes, I’d remain as a friend, as long as I’m not used as an alibi. NO

Abusing her family member or pets?
No. NO

Stealing from an elderly relative?
No. NO

Drug use?
No. Depends, a spliff once a year when out with old friends is different from chain smoking skunk whilst breastfeeding.

Cheating on taxes?
Yeah. YES

Anti LGBTQIA, racist, bigot, misogynystic?
No. Depends. Basically NO, but I couldn;t be friends with someone pro the TQIA+ homophobic nonsense.

Has a horrible man in her life that se protects?
No. NO

Ooops - no to tax cheat stealing from the NHS

I would leave it. I had a friend who was very different to me, treating people terribly, was very judgmental but I still saw the good in her and I was invested. But eventually, she just thought she could treat me appallingly. I cut ties and I can honestly say my life was so much happier without her in it.

Personally I think it’s a moral weakness to cut friends loose completely if they are suffering from either mental health issues or are in the grips of ideological delusions.

This is tough call. If you are powerless or not equipped to help practically, it becomes emotionally very draining, especially if you're struggling with issues of your own.

So I change the subject or distract her when she brings it up.

Fair enough. Looks like this is all you can do unfortunately.

I don't know what else she can do. I'm not going to encourage her and support her in having online relationships with strange (in all senses) men. I don't want to actually talk about these with her, because I think it's beyond the pale. So I change the subject or distract her when she brings it up.

I'm sorry, this is totally off the point OP, but just to let you know that the origin of the expression 'beyond the pale' makes it quite offensive to some people. Usually best avoided I think.

In your shoes, I would try to continue to support your friend if possible, it sounds like she needs it.

OP - my simple answer would be to back off. I don't think you have the qualification to help her MH and if her behaviour and life style choices really bother you then cut down on contact.

She might get help for her self-esteem issues, she might realise what she's doing is not helping her...you never know. You might reconnect after a while.

I would 100 percent stay friends. I don’t think she’s doing anything that bad, they wouldn’t be my lifestyle choices but I wouldn’t describe sex chat online with grown adults as abhorrent. It’s certainly not illegal. It’s kinky, and yes morally sexting married men isn’t great, but it’s her choice. I’ve got a girlfriend who smokes loads of weed around her child, shags loads of married men and only talks about herself. She’s either wild and great fun or depressed and you don’t hear from her. She’s not a straightforward person and I am very conventional and sensible. We’re very different, she always likes drama and makes terrible decisions, but that’s the way it is. You’ve been friends since nursery so it seems a shame to cut her off, but maybe distance yourself ever so slightly, or ask her for advice about something. The friendship sounds one sided and I appreciate how that can get you down.

I used to know someone who was very similar. It turned out she wasn't 'accidentally letting things slip'; involving someone who didn't approve was all part of the game to her. Once you know she is using you as part of her acting out/fetish, you'll get the ick.
IMO she has some deep and damaging issues that need more than some telephone therapy for anxiety.

"Yes, but she's not sleeping around, she doesn't actually meet them. It's all on WhatsApp, Zoom and so on."

There are people (and some previous friends etc) I know who have done the above. They have never met the people they are in contact with. They also have various mental health challenges. My theory is that they often did it because they wanted to be in a "real" relationship but some kind of trauma in their long distant or recent past means they have reached a road block which they cannot get round (not prepared to do the inner work or the above becomes some kind of soothing addiction etc) so the above somehow becomes an unhealthy substitute for getting into "real" relationships (platonic or romantic).

If it has gone on for a very long time and she knows your thoughts, and it still slips out in conversation, I would consider saying something really simple like "I am not judging you but I have a theory that when people get into patterns like this they rob themselves of the energy that is so important to unlocking old patterns and they cannot move on and find new patterns to make them happy. If you are going to carry on doing this I don't think I can support you or listen to you any more because I care about you and i want more for you. But it is your choice and as I think you will carry on doing this I wish you the best for your future"

Then go no contact.

When she talks about how she feels worthless etc, have you talked to her straight about the fact that what she’s doing will actually make her feel more worthless? The only way I can see you helping her is to help her see that it is her behaviour that is actually contributing to her low feelings. So instead of just not listening about that, actually tell her in simple basic terms that she’s making her own life worse by continuing to live this way. Then if she ignores that I’d be telling her you can only remain friends if she stops talking about her anxieties and her lifestyle. There’s no other way really.

You're absolutely right about "provides a temporary boost but doesn't actually assist in her overall well-being." It's exactly it.

However, if someone tells me they are talking to a married man in dominatrix terms I'm not likely to tell them how cool it is and to crack on. Or even to listen to it.

I try to distract from this, get her to go out, talk about other things, encourage her hobbies, simple things like doing her nails and so on.

Tell her!! In writing or by text if needed.

Let her make the choice. don’t tell her that she’s wrong, just that you can’t but in to what she’s doing, and in your view it’s having a negative impact on her.

Tell her how much she means to you. And that you’re there for her to support her with her issues if she wants that. But explain your boundaries.

If she truly is a good friend, she’ll wake up to what’s going on, and reach out to you,

If she ignores/deflects/is aggressive… well you have your answer and you can start to grieve the friendship.

I have totally been there. My friend walked away. I grieved, very badly. But at least I could stop wondering and wasting my energy.

But distraction isn’t working.
You don’t need to listen to the details - you need to make her understand that her lifestyle is causing/contributing to her anxieties and bad health. That’s the part you need to focus on, not what she is doing.

*buy in!

oh for an edit function!

OP can I just ask straight

why won't you end the friendship?

it causes you so much misery. Are you afraid of confrontation?

FWIW I have depression and anxiety, have done for years. If someone drops me for it, I don't consider it a moral failing. Though in this case, I think it's a red herring. It's her actions you have issues with.

agree that her telling you is part of a game that she enjoys.

It's not OP's job to make her understand that.

Whats the point? You're completely different people in values and behaviours by sound of it? The fact you say posted a few times before clearly shows this friendship troubles you. I'd let it slide and invest time in others who enhance your life in the way you want

It's possible that the friend has both mental health difficulties and poor/different moral values. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

If only people IRL came with check lists like this.

I would never want to be friends with someone who is an aphobic.
Or thinks it has anything to do with homophobia.
What a fucking strange view!

Is she getting paid for the sex work she's doing?

I don't think so!

I try to distract from this, get her to go out, talk about other things, encourage her hobbies, simple things like doing her nails and so on.

You do this to make yourself more comfortable, not to help her. You can't "distract' someone away from themselves, this is really misguided. She's not doing this to offend you. This is her reality, it's not the state of her nails that's the issue.

So do you think I should be discussing with her why she feels the need to be having these 'relationships'? Pointing out as another poster said that it's just a short term fix? She says it makes her feel happy. Then a day or two later she says she wakes up "feeling like crap" and is crying all the time.

It's really the job of the therapist, I'd say. I might ask if she feels safe to tell him about this. If she doesn't, then she's not getting the right sort of help I don't think. But who am I to say?