Friend with very different moral code to me

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Would you remain friends?

I've asked questions about this friend before and given lots of detail. I'm not going to do that now, even though much more has come to light, as people may just yell "you're over invested" or "you're a nosey parker" than give practical advice.

I've had about three get-togethers with her over the past month and have kept the chat light and social, and tried to deflect or grey rock if she brings up these topics. I've known her for 35 years, we met at nursery school.

Would you stay friends with someone who is completely at odds with your own moral standards (and those of the rest of your mates)? Or would you live and let live and just meet for chats, coffee etc and leave it there?

But the OP has asked for practical advice - that’s what I’ve given 🤷‍♀️

She also says she doesn't know why she feels like crap and cries all the time.

She does cry easily though. The Queen's funeral had her in floods of tears, she was in tears seeing Charles trying to hold it together, Christmas carols make her cry, fluffy chicks and babies. Anything, really.

If it bothers you to think this much about it. I would think let the friendship go. You will feel much better.

If you’re not willing to talk to her about it and leaving it to the therapist - then what exactly do you want from this thread?? The only way to help her in my view, is to talk to her about this behaviour making her anxiety and feelings worse. If she can’t link that, then you have 2 choices - 1. Cut the friendship, 2. Continue as you are and keep starting more threads knowing you’re not actually going to get anywhere and not listen to any advice 🤷‍♀️

I think it's fair to say you care for her and will be supportive over her mental health, but you can't support her in this and you will not listen to her talk about it. It's one for the safe and non-judgemental space of the therapist.

Things like cheating, affairs with married men - stuff that she is knowingly hurting another person and potentially ruining lives,I would step right back.

Depends what the moral standard are and how she upholds her view.

Example:

If she thinks unmarried women should give their kids their surname and isnt rude to those who dont then I dont care its not any hill to die on.

If she thinks unmarried women should give their kids their surname and is rude/nasty/belittling to those who don't then I aint got time for bullies.

Ill be friends with people from any political group, religeous group or people with different opinions to me as long as they are polite nice about it... I actually enjoy the sharing of views from opposit side when people are educational rather than ignorant.

Obviously if the morals encompass hate crimes like thinking entire groups or races should not exist or not have rights then ditch her but surely your wouldn't be friends with someone where its that black and white so this must be more 'opinion' based that straight up 'right vs wrong'.

OP I have been in a very similar situation in my younger years.
Best friend. But was sleeping around / sex acts rather than on the phone - actively looking for older guys and often they were married. She was also married and we met as couples often. It was so awkward.
I realised after a while that it was all because her self esteeem and self worth was so so low that she was doing it to try to feel loved / feel worthy. I went along for years minimising it / not mentioning it or just exaggerated comedy eye rolling etc. i never told her to stop but she knew I didn’t approve.
Eventually though i did go NC with her although this was for many other reasons not only the sex side. If she had been an amazing friend otherwise I think we would still be friends now.
Your friend may well come out of this phase at some point and look back with horror herself. If she is an good friend otherwise to you, stick with it and don’t judge too much. She knows you don’t approve anyway so don’t discuss it but you can still be friends.
We are all human, all make mistakes, all go down the wrong path sometimes.

She's having a MH crisis that is leading to risky behaviour. It's up to you whether you want to support her through that or not.
I wouldn't see it as a moral judgement. Her behaviour will be closely linked to her MH. Either you have the emotional capacity to support her or you don't. It's your choice.

That’s because it provides a release from all her own feelings of pain.

As for your update what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes is non of my (or anyones) business.

You might not like her being a dominatrix or taking naked photos but its litrally NON of your business if she does or who with.

This. If she's sleeping around it wouldn't bother me but if she was a racist bigot it would.

Your friend sounds very similar to one I once had. Very similar behaviour, she was always seeking instant gratification, through sexting unavailable men, flirting and sending pics, but feeling wretched afterwards. Her mood would spiral and it was difficult to be in her company.
Most of it was played out over text/ phone/ email (with colleagues). There were times when she would interact with men in real life and on one night out put me in danger, all was ok eventually, but I did start to back away. I wasn’t outraged morally as such, but it’s clear this conduct was extremely detrimental to her mental health. She was a great friend, but out contact now is limited to Facebook, she’s no longer part of my inner circle.

There isn’t really an answer here, you want to support her, but you also need to protect your own mental health. Maybe back away a little and encourage the therapy?

I've read all your updates and tbh I would still want to be friends.

If you'd said she was stealing or compulsively lying or racist, then I wouldn't. But from what you've said she's having a shit time, I would support her as much as I was able.

I’m not clear whether you enjoy and actively want her company and friendship outside of this issue?

If it was a friend I cared about and wanted to keep, I might say gently to her that I didn’t think she was helping herself or doing herself justice with what she’s doing but that it was her choice, and then change to other topics.

If it’s soured the friendship for you though, that’s ok- you can move on. Just quietly withdraw/minimise contact.

There are things that are non-negotiable like someone making racist, xenophobic, homophobic or sexist comments. I also decided to cut out of my life anyone who thought that drug taking or law breaking was OK.

I used to have a really varied group of friends and acquaintances which included people with very alternative lifestyles (as I am an artist).

In the end I realised there is a line between wanting to be non-judgemental and hanging around people who are very different values from you.

I only now keep in touch with people who share my values.

I think cheating is wrong. If a close friend did that I would share my concerns with them and certainly not tell them that what they are doing is OK. I had a friend who was seeing a married man and in the end she saw that what she was doing was stupid and harmful and broke it off. I did not give up on her, I just made it clear it is not a choice I would make and that the relationship did not seem to make her happy when she spoke to me about it.

So do you think I should be discussing with her why she feels the need to be having these 'relationships'? Pointing out as another poster said that it's just a short term fix? She says it makes her feel happy. Then a day or two later she says she wakes up "feeling like crap" and is crying all the time.

She's not well. It's not your job to distract her out of that. The activity that you find abhorrent is a symptom, not a moral issue for you to take offense at. She's got a therapist, it's not your job to dictate how she engages with them. Any more than it's your job to police her internet history. What she does in her own time is private, it is not your remit!

You either continue the friendship because you're able to cope with who she is at the moment and you get something positive out of it, ie laughter, companionship, whatever, or you don't. Wringing your hands and repeatedly posting here for advice on her morals and how to fix them is not it.

Thanks for all the interesting comments, really insightful, thank you.

I do not think I have the right to judge anyone as they they do not hurt anyone else I would not care
We are all different thankfully
Why do you think your "moral standards" are so much better than hers

"She does [have mental health issies], and she doesn't tell her therapist about this sort of thing she's doing, and therefore not getting the help she needs."

I'm not sure I'd regard her behaviour as a 'moral code' issue. She's effectively self-harming as a coping strategy. Except it's not helping her cope it's driving her deeper.

Rather than "try to distract from this", I think I'd meet it head-on. So if she brought the subject up, made a slip, however it came into the conversation, I'd be asking her why she's doing this to herself and make it explicit that I thought she was self-harming. I'd probably be quite forceful that she needs to tell her therapist about it or she's wasting her time. That by not telling her therapist she's like the patient with lung issues hiding that she smokes. That I'm worried she'll never get herself back whilst doing this, and that I miss her and want her back.

But I suspect you've already said all this to her.

In which case I think I'd have to say to her that I can't bear to watch her destroy herself like this any more, and she needs to be straight with her therapist or I just can't be around her any more, for my own mental health. Because frankly OP, this is affecting you too.

I have a friend who is very religious, we have very different morales she would see my morales as lacking, she called me a murderer for thinking abortion was ok and thinks I’m allowing my kids to be brainwashed by letting them watch TV. I think her morales are hypocritical she eats meat so doesn’t mind animals being killed, she watches movies but doesn’t allow her kids too and she puts herself and her husband above the kids which I disagree with, but at the end of the day we get on and can see past each other’s ‘floors’ and have learned to just have lighthearted chat rather than debates or discussions. I think if you can both see you are both coming from different t places but you’re both doing what you think is right then you have to respect each other not change your own thoughts.

I hope that makes sense.

Absolutely agree. Your friend needs your support, and if you feel incapable of giving that wholeheartedly, then step away.
I’ve supported friends, and been supported myself through times when others might think what was happening was immoral or wrong, by THEIR code, and I’m very glad that we got through those times together. Nothing you have said would make me back off, or morally flinch, and no, I wouldn’t desert a friend for engaging in behaviour that I wouldn’t do myself like this, I’d want to be around so they had someone who loves the, with their best interests at heart to stand with them when the shit hits the fan.
If she’s suffered previous trauma, it’s common to engage in risky behaviour, and hiding it from the therapist is a stage she will go through. She needs to be able to trust her therapist enough to peak about it, and she needs to trust you…

Where did I say my moral standards are better than hers?

I can see why you got a hard time before….

Its very likely that she behaves the way she does BECAUSE she has some anxiety and depression issues. It’s like.y that she has some trauma that she needs to deal with THAT YOU DINT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT.

Ita not that she doesn’t ry hard enough or is saying one thing but is doing the other. She is trying her best with what she has and would do with a proper friend to support her. Which you are not.
If she wa sin here, I’d advise her to stop seeing you.

Well, it was certainly the implication...