Friend with very different moral code to me

[ImJustMadAboutSaffron]

Would you remain friends?

I've asked questions about this friend before and given lots of detail. I'm not going to do that now, even though much more has come to light, as people may just yell "you're over invested" or "you're a nosey parker" than give practical advice.

I've had about three get-togethers with her over the past month and have kept the chat light and social, and tried to deflect or grey rock if she brings up these topics. I've known her for 35 years, we met at nursery school.

Would you stay friends with someone who is completely at odds with your own moral standards (and those of the rest of your mates)? Or would you live and let live and just meet for chats, coffee etc and leave it there?

You don't sound like you're being a particularly good friend to her tbh.

She does, and she doesn't tell her therapist about this sort of thing she's doing, and therefore not getting the help she needs.

And so it begins ...

What do you suggest I do instead, to be a better friend to her, then? Your comment doesn't help, really, does it?

I disagree. I think if OP were not a good friend, then she wouldn't be searching for advice about what to do in her situation.

It does sound like the poor woman has significant issues and I can see why you're torn here. It can be very difficult to draw a line in your own mind/life without passing judgement on someone else's.

I think, honestly, only you know where your own personal 'line' is. You're using words like abhorrent and disgust to describe her behaviour/conduct, which are pretty strong words. So you clearly have a significant objection to this aspect of her life. Which is fine — every person gets to set their own moral code around what they do and don't let in.

The question of whether the bad (in your head) outweighs the good... well, only you can decide that. No one else here — me included — can tell you what to do. And what someone else would do isn't necessarily what you should do, because only you are you. If that makes sense.

What does your gut say? If you feel like, all things considered, you would prefer to pull away from the friendship, then do that. She might not react very well to this, but again, that isn't your problem.

So that's my second category then.

Treat it as a compulsion, like binge eating or self harm. Because that's clearly what it is.

She doesn't yet feel safe to tell her therapist. Your response, while understandable, is likely compounding that fear.

Don't worry about the other men or their wives, that's the men's issue. Not your problem.

Your concern is your friend. She needs your support. Not your criticism. Just support. Tell her it's safe to tell her therapist, and that her therapist will be better able to help her if she knows.

I have distanced myself from a friend as she just has different morals and I find it difficult not to be honest with her when she asks, then she gets all offended. She's quite selfish without seeing it and a bit flakey, it's just easier to distance myself.

We were only friends through the kids really and our little ones don't really get on at the moment, as they are just too different at the moment so my DD doesn't want to be around her child.

What the men are doing is immoral.

She sounds vulnerable and exploited.

Well for a start I don't think she has a different 'moral code', is she actually doing anything immoral/wrong? So I would suggest your abhorrence is an overreaction and probably quite judgemental.

It sounds as if she is having some problems and needs support. If you can't offer that then obviously you have to step away, but I can't imagine ditching a lifelong friend in these circumstances.

You can't possibly know what she discusses with her therapist and it's none of your business.

Wow, this is your third thread about this friend I think?

Previous threads focused on how wildly over invested you were, posters suggested you investigate your codependency/over involvement around this friend, but you rejected all nuanced responses and refused to examine your own motivations at all.

Pretty obsessive OP.

The only immoral bit I can ascertain is her engaging flirtatiously with married men. Their marriage is their construct to protect, if those married men are out there seeking tantalization, then they are actively disrespecting their marriages, it's not for your friend to marriage counsel or coach them.

At any rate, if you are not interested in being an audience to all the nonsense, just back off. Either slowly cool the friendship, or steer the conversation back to whatever you are happy to talk about.

TBH, I think you need to reassess what is really bothering you.

Stop judging her, just support her. If you feel emotionally drained or don't feel like being an audience to her drama or a crutch and there is no fun in the friendship (for you), then find a new friend.

I'd say also stop judging and just support her, she sounds vulnerable. My moral dilemma would be if a friend was one of the men contacting her- actually no dilemma as that would be a dealbreaker.

Is she the one who is man obsessed, talks of noting else, is sleeping around/with married men and generally making dreadful love life choices?

@VatofTea I don't need to find a new friend, thanks, I've plenty of others. This one is my oldest one, however.

@ToFindNewWays my motivation, if you put it that way, is in response to her asking me for help. I've not ditched her, but met her for coffee, brunch, a meal - three occasions over the last month - as she has anxiety about going out and said she was upset at not going out. So I arranged things where she did go out. I might be judgemental on here as well as in my own mind, but I've not told her what I think, unless she asked me and then I would.

Yes, but she's not sleeping around, she doesn't actually meet them. It's all on WhatsApp, Zoom and so on.

I don't know if she's got a different moral code to you, or you to her. She sounds like she's really struggling in general, and you sound like you want to fix her. Two sides of the same coin.

You need to accept that she won't change just because you find her behaviour against your moral code, and neither should she. She is a friend, yes, she is not beholden to you to behave within the bounds of what you deem acceptable. How she deals with her therapy is solely her business.

Take some time to think about what you want out of the friendship, and if you feel you're getting it. If not, then back away. You are not signed into it, or committed for a certain amount of years. Friendships come and go throughout life, they only work if they're working. You don't need to hang around, you're free to leave, she wont' benefit from your judgement, which she can obviously feel.

I think if you're unable to support your friend with her MH issues, you need to distance yourself.

Impossible to answer- the idea of a "*moral code" can potentially cover many areas from child abuse, use of pornography, having sex outside marrige, shoplifting, being a Tory MP, homosexuality, religious indoctrination of children, eating meat.9

My mother's church doesn't allow women to wear trousers- the church considers that a "moral" issue.

I don't know how to support her. I listen to all her talk about feeling worthless and remind her she isn't, and also remind her what a great friend she has been and talk about her positive qualities. I do practical things for her like take her out to get her out of the house and try to help with her social anxiety. I encourage her to do the hobbies she liked to do - reading and discussing books and other hobbies.

I don't know what else she can do. I'm not going to encourage her and support her in having online relationships with strange (in all senses) men. I don't want to actually talk about these with her, because I think it's beyond the pale. So I change the subject or distract her when she brings it up.

Personally I think it’s a moral weakness to cut friends loose completely if they are suffering from either mental health issues or are in the grips of ideological delusions.

Real immorality on their part, eg cynical exploitation of vulnerability, then yes, I’d have a problem and I’d make myself their problem. But otherwise no. I have old friends for whom I’m one of their very few contacts with consensus reality, and I like to think, as their friend, I can offer a “soft” option for dealing with whatever nonsense they’ve cooked up for themselves, rather than just judgement and rejection.

Honestly she sounds incredibly insecure. She perhaps needs therapy to help her set boundaries and improve her self-esteem. I don’t have a massive moral issue with what she’s doing- it takes two to tango and more than a bit of sex chat to tear apart a solid marriage. So there’s more going on at home for the men to be seeking this out. And frankly, whatever sex type talk that occurs between two consenting adults is really not anyones business, personally I think you’re overstepping, whether it’s coming from a good place or not.

Tbh I would pity her, but do not tell her any of your private business.

Massive moral issues for me would be benefit fraud, theft, abusive/negligent parenting, etc etc

I think you sound overly judgmental tbh and quite naïve. There’s a big world out there- far bigger fish to fry than this. This wouldn’t be a dealbreaker in the friendship in my opinion, however, if the friendship has run its course and you no longer enjoy it, then it’s worth considering moving on.

It's absolutely not a moral code issue at all.

Describing it as that is a misdirection.

Have you considered getting counselling yourself, to help you resolve how you feel about this? It's obviously worrying you a lot. You've posted about it here several times.

I think you sound a little over invested in her life really.The thing is she has made some questionable choices here but its not really your business .If you are not at ease with her lifestyle,then maybe cool things down .Maybe she is getting paid and thinks of it as some sort of "work" ,maybe she has MH issues who knows.I think if we are at a vastly different stage to our friends its difficult to keep the friendship going .

I do know your previous posts

I think it's not possible for you to stay friends without you feeling really uncomfortable. I grew apart from a friend in my 20s because all she talked about was men. I asked her bluntly if we could limit that topic or take it off the table, but she said frankly "all I really want to do with a friend is drink a lot and talk about men".

there were other issues but generally I was just sick of a drunk friend whining on about men, one night stands, dating etc.

But honestly speaking, you are playing silly games. There is absolutely no way that you can obtain validating advice from anyone else. You either wish to remain friends with her, or you do not. "Morals" have nothing to do with it. Everyone's morals differ, and we'd be a sad place if we all thought and acted in the same way. We have no idea why she is acting the way she is, and we cannot judge the value of the many years of friendship. Only you can determine those things. And you can either live with it or you cannot. What we might do is irrelevant.