should i just get over myself?

[green]

Could i ask for a reality check please?

My husband is a 'good' man and he is a great dad. We've had some serious ups and downs (prob more downs that ups)- I've had post natal depression, he's had an affair. We have been in couples therapy on and off for 4 years.

The basic problems are that he is emotionally not HERE, very very distant. I'm not sure if he is unable or unwilling to make an emotional connection? Secondly, I feel often undermined by him.

Should I just get over myself and realise that marriage is a comprimise and I need to find other ways to be happy - I appreciate my self esteem is my responsibility and maybe I need to fill my life more with other supportive people to fill our lack of emotional bond.

Anyone else had this and made a decision to leave in order to find potential greater happiness, or is that a really risky game to play?

Snap green. That is really weird. About the emotional literacy thing I mean, and the tendency to blame yourself or find excuses.
But a good counsellor will be able to see that and to encourage him to unpack his aversion. It sounds like you are doing all the work here.

Ok - we have two kids. We have moved about a lot for his career - 4x 4 years and he has left me alone to look after the kids and not do my work. (he is insane and glitteringly talented workaholic and also very very private and emotionally distant.) About a year ago I suddenly woke up and had enough. I said this very clearly to him in a number of ways and it didn't go in. I told him that I had felt so lonely that I nearly shagged someone at a party. He said "oh, was it anyone I know?" And then didn't mention it again. I went to Relate on my own, hoping it would stun him into realising the jeopardy we were in, but no. I tried again and again. In the autumn I confronted him again and he said he would not be able to talk about it or do anything for another six months because of work issues. I held everything in but became distant and strange with him. Finally after an horrific Christmas he confronted me on Wednesday and I told him that I didn't want to be married any more. So now he knows, he is devastated and desperate to repair it but frankly I feel beyond all that, although I will give the co counselling a go, and my own.

Yes, I think I need to say that in my next session with therapist and get her feedback on that one. We just seem to piddle about with day to day stuff sometimes rather than really challenging ourselves.

Got to say I was PMSL at the 'oh was it anyone I know' comment, which is exactly what would happen with mine too. Also the putting it off because of work issues - relationships and life changes seem to have to fit into the work schedule and not the other way round. Are you a SAHM mum by the way TMD? Also can I ask in what way has he shown he is devastated and desperate?

Last night as we lay in bed doing spoons (I was already asleep when he came to bed) I felt guilty for feeling this way.

Green, quit piddling already (in Carmela from Sopranos tone) You only get one life, and it's really precious, and I know marriages are not about some cosy, soppy vision of the world but require WORK - There are some excellent posts from people about what long term love is, you could search, I remember a particularly stunning one from Custardo and I think Harpsi.But 4 years? 4 years ffs. Guilt is just a sign that you are not a psycho, not a reason not to seek answers or solutions.

DH seems smaller, less assured. And he did a lot of retching and shaking and crying when I told him. And I said - kindly - welcome to the club love, that's what I've been doing for the past year.

no I'm not an SAHM - well that is what I have been over the past few years but I'm a writer and I'm just clawing myself back out of the milky mire of motherhood and into work again. I've lost a lot of confidence but I'm grimly determined.

I asked about SAHM because I think being so (and I have been and not been in the last 7 years) has some sort of effect on the 'neediness' quotient or certainly perceived neediness, if you know what I mean.

Yes, ffs, you are right, 4 years is such a bloody long time. I think you just loose track and you begin to forget what you were even looking for in the first place sometimes.

Will defo go to therapy next week with a more focused agenda.

you go girl.
yes. SAHM and real/perceived neediness, I agree.
Feel free to CAT me if you want.
Good luck.

It sounds like you're a lot clearer in your own mind what you need to get out of the counselling this time - good luck with it

So we had our session this week and I went in all focussed etc. We thrashed over the same old shit. We've been through the same issues in different guises now so many times it feels. Our therapist acknowledged we have been her longest standing clients and suggested at the end of the session that we have 6 more sessions and then it will be crunch time.

I've had this realisation before but it was reinforced to me that if we stay together then I need to accept that we cannot be everything to eachother as he is pretty much unable to offer me real emotional support. I do think it genuinely confuses him - he truly doesn't get it. It will take a real real compromise on my part, which although in the past I have been willing to accept, at the moment I'm just not sure I can. If I was on my own I would of course, but feel that I need to make that compromise on behalf of my kids.

Dh I think got a bit of a shock at how serious I was. Saw a chink in his armour that night, but as usual back to old self by the morning.

Another facet which need to fess up to (tmd, just read that you have rumbled y'self). I think that the comprimise feels even harder as have recently been influenced by ridiculous and rather intense teenage crush on old university friend. Rather boringly cliched and predictable state of affairs which is now under control I think/hope. BUT I got a glimpse of the old me through it, felt completely invigorated and it underlined how much I have shut off and how skewed my view of realistic expectations in a relationships is.

The worry is (and tmd I'm thinking of you here too) that this is still so fresh in my mind and I wonder how that is impacting on my generosity of spirit towards dh. I almost feel cross with him for being so distant yet by virtue of him being my dh he has denied me the chance to experience some emotional intensity with someone else!

Sorry if fessing up to this means that you feel a bit 'cheated' by my previous posts. I guess I thought I was pretending I could separate the issues.

Not cheated at all Green. Did the therapist shed any light on why nothing has moved on, ie his aversion to your perceived neediness etc? Did she have anything helpful to say?
Are you going to use your individual therapy to try and get rid of your crush? Did you do anything very bad? Could you tell your dh? Are you, in fact, me?

I felt this way about my dh for a very long time. We were together about 15(!) years before I felt he understood the issue, although we didn't use any therapy. He is quite self-contained, has mates but not 'close' mates and doesn't discuss personal problems with anyone but me (now).
I am still not convinced that he really 100% understands my need for the emotional input, but at times when he doesn't understand it, he has accepted that he still needs to communicate. For my part, I can still tell when he is a little confused, but I can see him making the effort.
It is a compromise we have negotiated. Without belittling the effects these issues can have on everyday life and longterm visions, in its way it's the same as when I agree with him that a certain car colour is stunning, when I am really thinking 'why are we talking about something as inane as car colour'. But all things car are of great importance to him, and always have been.
Sort of about accepting your partner sees something as being of paramount importance even if you don't yourself, and being willing to work towards it for the greater good.

No light shed on why things haven't moved on - more like she thinks we need to come to terms with our differences and see if we can move on from that position. She is helpful - mostly in that she asks questions that make him articulate his thoughts somewhat. But his thoughts remain that my instability and 'ishoos' are the problem. Sort me out, sort the marriage out.

Yes, going to individual therapy. Yes, working on crush. Yes, did something very bad (but good) , No couldn't and wouldn't tell dh, Yes, I may infact be you TMD. (Incidentally, I suspect from your smatterings of yiddish that you too may have tasted the odd kneidl on a friday night).

PeterDuck - how sweet. I am in Sheffield and am feeling remarkably like Sylvia Plath.

I get you about the car thing and I do understand that life/marriage is about compromise. And at times I have felt that that sort of compromise is possible and I can find other things to meet my needs and be happy. But at the moment I can't seem to accept it.

how bad were you green? Worse than me?

Oi, Green, you ok?
Please don't feel Plathian. Take yourself off to the YSP and do some therapeutic walking. And talk to us.
I am starting my therapy on Tuesday, and am expecting to learn some unpleasant things about myself.
I am not a member of the tribe, although dh is, hence my yiddish.

Yeah, I'm OK thanks. Head not in the oven yet, just been in London for the weekend.

Have you not been in any therapy before? Don't know why, thought you had? You'll probably learn some very pleasant things about yourself. And to stop thinking unpleasant things about yourself!

I was bad, full on works bad. I think the difference is my little crush (and subsequent actions) were a bit of a short sharp thing IYKWIM. He is in London, and old Uni friend of friend, no connections whatsoever with dh or with work, so I was able to keep it quite separate from my real life. Not to say that my very heady feelings weren't in my real life - far from it - they fricking took over, but that separateness did and does mean something I think.

I also think that no amount of moral posturing will stop you doing anything whilst you are away. I think in crush mode you get too carried away and manipulate yourself into allowing yourself to do what you want to do. The only thing I reckon to use to steel the nerves is the thought of how much more painful the whole situation will be once you've done the deed. If you feel vulnerable now, jeez you will feel wrecked after. A massive low followed the massive high, but I didn't need to see him at work, or hear people mention him etc. I can't imagine how I would have coped if that was the scenario. Whaddya think soul sista?

Green, mate,I hope you had a lovely weekend in London. Did you see some CULCHA? Some mates? Get your mind off things?

So it was a one nighter then? No less heady or headfucky for that.

sweet'eart, I 'ave been in LOADS of therapy. (I had a very messy childhood and adolescence . And I partly wonder whether this is why I am where I am at now.)
But not for a while. I am happy to be your companion in our mutual search for truth and integrity. (wanky sentence alert.)

Do you LOVE your dh, in any way?

No culture, just mates and pubs and way way too much food.

A one (and a half) nighter after much much build up and flirting etc.

I do love my dh in lots of ways - I feel tenderness towards him & I respect him. Oh, thats not lots of ways is it? Until 3/4 months ago I would also have said that I value his approval/opinion, he makes me laugh, and most of all that I wanted him to love me back 'properly'. But at the moment, I'm not sure its too late. I reckon crush man has had an impact here if I'm honest. Not maybe for himself, but because he is a symbol to me that an emotional connection is possible IYKWIM. Then it feels harder to comprimise and to say that I will stay in a marriage where my needs aren't being met.

Snap - messy childhood and adolensence, and I think we'd be foos not to recognise that this will have played a big part in the partners we chose - I for one always knew he was not the emotional type, and after a childhood of far too much emotion, this was a very attractive proposition.

Another therapy session together tonight. Then alone tomorrow. Therapy junkie.

Not sure what this CAT ing business is, but is it a way to have a more 'private' convo?

It is. I am about to sign up for it and I will CAT you.

Sorry, essay warning:
I feel wrecked. We went for our 2nd session on Monday and its all falling apart now.

In the session I was quite honest about feeling that I'm not sure I can continue this relationship without more of a 2 way communication. He admitted that he is sometimes unwilling rather than unable to 'connect' with me - he has lost respect for me over the years as I have had so many 'issues' - I had a messy childhood and have a dreadful relationship with my mum, PND, illness (due to thyroid probs) etc. He says he 'can't be bothered' at times because one issue is dealt with and then another rears its head. He wants someone who just gets on with life!

When we got home I could sense his (repressed) anger. He has stopped talking to me and has moved into the spare room. He sent me an email yesterday saying that he's had enough of it all - he feels like a bit part player in the 'green' show. He feels unappreciated for all his hard work as a father and husband. He won't go to couples therapy anymore. He thinks she was telling him that he needs to play the game 'my way' or 'no way'.

I'm feeling so lost now. I'm worried that this is all my fault and that I expect too much from my relationships and I have pushed him too far with my instability and neediness. The other part of me feels that I have a right to ask for this sort of connection in my relationships.

I'm sorry if some of you who helped earlier feel 'cheated' by my admission that I had a short/intense thing a while back. It started and was over really quickly and whilst I am not proud of it, I at the same time I feel a degree of it being inevitable - I was seeking something that I have been missing (all be it in the wrong places). Its over now.

shameless bump to get some female solidarity/thought provoking truths....

There is so much going on for you at the moment I am not surprised that you are having to step back and take a long hard look at things.

Having read through all the posts the thing that strikes me is that he is a self contained man who dosn't do emotional which can translate into affection, communication, tenderness, respect, etc. It does make me wonder what you saw in each other in the first place if he never offered this. He must have known you had baggage at the time?? Also, PND, thyroid, dreadful childhood, are NOT your fault. You haven't pulled these out of the bag to spite him and I'm sure you would rather not have experienced them. To blame you for the above refuse to offer any support and lose respect for you because of them is to be terribly unfair to say the least.

I personally don't think a marriage can survive without a basic underlying bedrock of affection and mutual respect. Do you still have sex?? ((You don't have to answer that one)) Does he free up emotionally then?? Is there tenderness and pillow talk?? I would find it very hard to continue any sort of a 'normal' relationship with a man who had built such high barriers to keep me out without becoming intensly resentful back.

I imagine he wants a life where he can work, come home to a wife with tea on the table and not have to deal with anything emotionally messy. Nice and tidy. How is his relationship with his kids?? Does he do emotions with them. I must say I am finding it hard to equate this man to one who could do something as emotionally messy as an affair. And your fling - must have felt nice to have some feedback. Has that opened the floodgates. Cause &/or effect??

Does he cuddle you?? Hug you?? Kiss you?? I would find it hard to live without this day to day. It seems to be the first thing to go when times get hard and yet, I think the most important. That and talking. And laughing together.

Self indulgent to leave?? I don't think so. If he is not at least willing to compromise then you have two choices. Put up with it or go. I do agree that a partner cannot be expected to be all things, but as you have been removed from your support network then by default he is all you have.

I for one don't feel in the least bit "cheated" that you've done something you're not proud of, and I hope no-one else would. I've been kind of leaving you and TMD to chat lately, as I think someone who has been in a similar situation, and had experience of therapy, would be able to give you advice from a position of empathy better than I can.

But it does rather sound like it's all gone pear-shaped at the moment... From one point of view, I think it's good that he has actually reacted - at least you're getting some honesty about the fact that he's fed up with the situation, and the pair of you can't just keep drifting and avoiding the problem... extremely painful though.

Maybe now he's being honest, you could ask him how he sees this situation developing? Is there a way that you can move past this, or is it all just too much on both sides, and separating would be the least worst option? I'd never tell someone that's what they should do, but I recognise that some relationships do come to an end, and trying to carry on is not for the best.

thanks guys.

we have sex infrequently - once every few weeks. he is very 'giving' in a physical sense (sorry if TMI) and can be very apreciative of my physical body during sex (you turn me on etc...) but no pillow talk. Jeez, I'd forgotten about pillow talk existing. In fact I think I may need a definition - mutual appreciation of eachother during the afterglow of sex. Do you married guys really still do that? No cuddles initiated from him, very little kissing - and I am not allowed to kiss him in public. He doesn't do public displays of affection.

He had an affair with a totally inappropriate woman from work who was an alcoholic/ex drug addict who was going through her own divorce - so hardly 'issue free'!!! But he was able to totally disconnect from her after I found out about it.

My fling has totally opened the floodgates, as has some recent time spent with my sister where I went to the pub and had proper conversations with new people who seemed interested in me. It felt new and exciting.

I know it probably seems really clear from what I'm saying that I should leave and that I will be happier in time. But why do I feel so much like I have pushed him away and I'm so ashamed of the fact that I am so needy. I'm also worried that I won't cope on my own. In a way I feel like I can't believe the advice because my natural tendancy is to almost doubt myself - am I really representing the truth?

Also as the product of a really messy divorce and watching my mum really really struggle with life as a single mum -I'm terrified.

AMIS - he has reacted - but in an extreme case of emotional distance is acting on the surface as if all is fine. Saying good morning as if nothing has happened, yet emailing me from work to say he's had enough.

Sorry if I'm rambling but this is helping. I know I'm going round in circles!