April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

"As mad as a box of frogs" - I think that's a good reply. Like you said most people are just being polite and humour may even take the sting out of what feels like rejection.

Yes my brother just wants the charade to resume. He is like DFOD's aunt.

Although he hasn't been projecting labels on to me, this estrangement is in his view, some sort of interval and all he wants is for me to pipe down and take my place again, on stage, directed by mother. My standing up for myself is the trouble. I shouldn't stand up for myself. I should accept her narrative. Just submit is his bottom line.

In something resembling a discussion, he has come close to admitting that he does understand my point of view but still sees my having stood in my own corner reiterating my interpretation of events as The Cause Of All The Trouble.

It's real cognitive dissonance or must be on the one hand he did admit 'no, i know you're not paranoid, sensitive, mad''' but on the other hand, it's just like ALLOW HER TO PROJECT THIS ON TO YOU.

The fact is though, I just cannot do that without it eroding me, hurting me and unsettling me, not something that matters to him as even with some understanding of what's caused this estrangement, only Mum's feelings matter.
He cannot acknowledge that of course.

And a flaw in the family logic occurred to me as I type this. If it's SUCH A GIVEN in the family that I'm crazy, sensitive, angry etc, then why are they stonewalling me. If you were genuinely worried about a family member with paranoia, sensitivity and lack of groundedness, would you STONEWALL THEM for years?

Would you think, she's upset and I tell everybody I love her and worry about her but the course of action I'm going to take here is to give her the silent treatment and stonewall her. Perfect, that'll help.

I know you lot all get this. Just typing it out. Thank you.

Yes I can see that the next generation up were just as toxic and dysfunctional - so to my aunt this is business as usual and you are expected to shut up, put up and suck up. She wouldn’t even recognize that’s what you were doing it’s just “normal” for enmeshed families to tolerate being abused and scapegoated. I don’t think she can compute that I have called it out.

The shocking events and subsequent estrangement still cuts me to my core and is really painful although I had no other choice and have reached out and been rejected. It’s not the wrong decision to be NC/LC but in my case it is not pain free. I have a deep sense of loss, grief, regret and longing. I don’t want the situation to be as it is. It’s not fulfilling or freeing. It’s deeply painful.

@Chevyimpala67 such a shame isn't it? that this results in loss of the sibling (s) too.

My brother is the same. He said to me a few weeks ago that I was my own worst enemy. I said to him, no I most definitely am not my own worst enemy. Having mum's narrative that she's perfect and i'm mad projected on to me is not in my best interest, it doesn't work for me at all. he actually had no response to that! The mumsnet classic of ''that doesn't work for me'' left him speechless!

He just doesn't get that I can be eroded and hurt and minimised by mum's projections. He just looks at me and sees a tin pot parade. NOTHING MORE.

Thank you. You are so right. Now my eyes are open I see everything so differently to when I was embedded in it. Even how I was just so compliant with everything and how much it crushed me as a person.
my mum uses a silent treatment of stonewalling to control and makes up different things to try and appeler the weak party. She calls herself elderly and tried to suggest I withheld the children from seeing her. She said her and my dad live a daily grief not seeing their grandchildren and that I’ve threatened that they don’t see them again.
when I asked when I said this she said 5/6 years ago … really odd. I still didn’t say it.
they aren’t interested in seeing their grandchildren it’s just something they do to cause conflict.
she is so difficult to get along with.
since returning she had done absolutely nothing. Literally nothing. When I asked her about it she says it’s her business. She is seriously strange.
way too much for me to handle these days.

Retiring not returning.
sorry you had a bad time too. Well done for cutting your ties. I find it so hard to do that.
i feel like there are constant reminders / Mother’s Day, Father’s Day, birthdays. They love causing a fuss over those occasions.

That could be me writing. That. So interesting to see it from someone else. I used to think it’s my imagination and I’m the bad guy. If I called then out my family would say what’s happened to you, why are you so angry you didn’t used to be like this.
its all your fault but theirs. You are made to feel crazy. For speaking up. Stonewalling I never knew it was this until recently. It’s such a horrible thing to do. As a parent id never do it. Not my style of communication. Sorry to hear you are in this situation.

YES, i didn't realise it was stonewalling either until fairly recently because my mum shuts down but then acts like the gracious victim, only to happy to forgive me and talk about the weather or the garden.

I just didn't see what was going on until I was about 47 !!

Hi there! I'm new. Long time lurker though. I have a nice family but partner is no contact with immediate family so this is an in-laws one. I have been learning about toxic families in order to better support him. One problem I am having though is that the set up tends to be a narc parent, an enabler, a golden child, a scapegoat and a lost child if there is 3 or more. With my partner's family there was no enabler. There was no dormat who went along with whatever the narc said and came across as the 'nice' parent. Both my partner's parents were narcs and would scream at each other every day, quite often with physical fighting including on Christmas day. They absolutely hated each other's guts and he says the only time they were not screaming at each other was when they were beating the kids. His father left when he was about 11, after 25 years with his mother. 2 out of the four had better treatment but were still beaten often. Partner was beaten daily. His Dad worked as a teacher so the family was outwardly middle class. They decided to stay married oddly enough. He has no contact with his 3 siblings. I was wondering if anyone has ever seen posts about families where both parents are narcs and neither are enablers ? It would be good to read other people's experiences. Or any experiences that are similar to this. Does anyone know any good therapists/ things that have helped complex PTSD? Also it seems so common for a narc to find an enabler, and logical for a bully to find a weak person to 'steady the boat'. His parents were both boat rockers and as such made each other's lives hell. Any ideas why neither of them went for an enabler ?

How awful :(
Has he read "toxic parents" by Susan forward?

I have read Toxic parents by Susan Forward, I hope to encourage him to read it over the summer but he said it would be too triggering when I asked before.

Dear stately homes friends. I am totally on the ropes. Every possible shade of shit kicking off with my toxic sister. Wish I could say more but suffice to say it's the inevitable cluster-fuck in the mother death zone.

And yes, I have had wine. And twice my own bodyweight in carbs.

Oh, love:(
I'm sorry.
Carbs and wine sound good 👍

Thanks @Chevyimpala67 - I can't tell you how much I appreciate that. x

IME death and bereavement amplified every emotion into another orbit. You think you have seen it all before - but there are new depths to plummet when the delusion, entitlement, domination, grandiosity explodes - the histrionics and controlling behaviours go into overdrive over every single detail around funerals, wills, processions - it’s ugly and unhinged. That rocky boat will capsize. Try and step back and look at it like a grotesque pantomime.

Choose your battles very carefully.

I am sorry that you are in the eye of the storm. Take care of yourself.

@Sicario you are a wise person and we have all seen that. I hope that your sister doesn't get close enough to you to provoke you.

I'm projecting there. That's my ongoing fear.

I hope you're as close to ok as you can be. Always going to be a bit weird. Wishing you strength.

I agree, this is not the week for low carb.

xx

@Thehouseofmarvels sounds a bit like my x's parents who only divorced when he was in his 20s, and they had twenty years of screaming at each other behind them by then. They were both basic narcs I think but didn't fit that mould of narc and co-dependent either. They both married people pleasers in their second marriages.

my own mother is a narc and my dad is her foot soldier. He WANTS to do what he's told. It's not like he's resisting. So they ''work'' well together ykwim and that's a more usual combination. The narc is never challenged and can hold on to the comfortable belief that they ARE ALWAYS RIGHT and the weaker half of the couple ''empowers'' them self in a false way by aligning with a more dominant force. That's the way it usually goes down.

With your in laws, the intensity of their hatred for each other must be exhausting. Maybe (and I'm only guessing here) personality types who prefer the fighting and the drama, such as BPD and ''histrionic'', so while you might think they should have gone for enabler, what energises them is the fight. Having somebody back her up and agree with her is my mum's drink of choice but she doesn't have bpd or histrionic disorder. She is 'just' a narc, defensive, always right, shame based etc...
My mum and dad don't fight because my dad just thinks what he's told to think so why would they fight. They consider themselves happy, they're just very unevolved.

@ChairP0se9to5

Your reply is massively helpful. This is the kind of advice I was hoping for. I am going to research histrionic personality disorder as I wonder if that could be a fit. My partner has never reported the highs and lows of BPD. So narcissistic personality disorder and histrionic personality disorders can be comorbid? The intensity of their loathing for each other exhausted his father more, he was the one who left. I think his mother enjoyed it to an extent. He was apparently put off women for life and never had another relationship that we know of. His mother had various relationship s with other aggressive violent men, characterized by screaming marches. One of them tried to start a fight with my partner despite being 40 years older, my partner had to leave her house sharpish as he was trying to punch him. When partner went no contact she had a boyfriend ( she was nearly 80 and he was 70 so more like old man friend) and she would go to his house for a few days a month and they would scream at each other most of the time from what she told him. She also lived with his brother and they had exactly the same relationship she had with his Dad, screaming rows, he would push her down the stairs. When her mother died she was given the right to live in that house to visit her disabled brother in a nearby care home. She has not seen him in 7 years and spends a few days a year in the house. So she could get away from his agresive brother but she used to say how much she prefered her own house so maybe likes the drama due to a personality disorders. One reason why my partner went no contact is she would constantly pick fights, shout at him and insult him. She is not in contact with any of her own family and his siblings that don't live there have no contact periods of up to 7 years.

@ChairP0se9to5

After having a Google I wonder if a histrionic narcissist might fit his mother. I was convinced she wasn't a regular narc after reading stately homes, I might be right. It's interesting that histrionic s can be very charming and seductive. His family are exceptionally physicaly attractive and he said his mother was very beautiful in her youth. One of his sisters found a multi millionaire celebrity musician husband, despite only having a retail job. They divorced and I can see from the internet he cheated on her constantly with teenage fans despite being in his early fifties now. But I wonder if she picked up the charming seductiveness from her mother. I wonder if his dad is a regular narc and possibly that before marriage and children his mother acted more passive and so he thought he was getting a weak enabler until he was tied down.

@ChairPose9to5

When you said BPD I was thinking of bipolar disorder. I just realized you might mean borderline personality disorder. I will look that up too.

@Thehouseofmarvels sounds shocking - is there alcohol involved in any of this? Sounds like the mother had a shocking emotionally violent background that she thought was normal? There may well be other undiagnosed MH issues at play as well maybe a form of Bi polar etc.

How is / was your DH relationship with his DF once he left?

At the end of the day speculation on undiagnosed MH or PDs only gets you so far - it’s more important to work on addressing the the trauma cPTSD and wounding it causes on yourself.

I agree BPD and Narc pairing is a classic combination.