April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Don’t try to understand the crazy - you will go round and round in futile loops because there is not a rational answer for their irrational behaviour.

Just cut to the chase and know that it is what it is and has always been and will always be and accept that’s who / what she is.

I have said this before on these threads - it helps me to see my relative X as a specific animal - eg a hyena or a scorpion.

That’s their nature.

No surprises.

No point driving yourself crazy wondering why they mauled or stung you.

I think that there are a few steps to healing:

1. Awareness that something /someone is toxic.

1. Understanding and acceptance that they are what / who they are and you can’t change or control them.

1. Taking responsibility to move on with your own life, which involves detaching from them emotionally by dropping the rope even if you are NC - you have to be physically and emotionally far enough away that their antics don’t yank your chain and derail you.

Sounds simple but it’s not easy and takes so much time, effort and focus. Do you have professional emotional support? There are loads of excellent resources online where your struggles and painful feelings will resonate. Concentrate solely on your own healing and emotional protection.

It can get worse before it gets better as when you move away their efforts increase. You can track this. But in time (a long time) it will subside. If her antics are any physical communications you can inform her not to make contact and if she ignores this twice this is the definition of stalking/harassment and you can report her to the police who will intervene.

@Damagedptsd it was heartbreaking to read your post.
I am three years down the line and had my whole birth family lined up against me. I have a highly narcissistic family structure and like you, were the scapegoat.

NC is extremely hard, especially knowing that they are stabbing you in the back. But it is the only path to sanity and the most important thing to remember is that the shame and guilt does not belong to you. Hand it back to them.

It took time for me to trust friends to talk to , i was in emotional terror and was so used to being discarded and not believed.
But once I did open up my friends have become my life line. And also it became clear i was not alone and other people have heard of families like mine.

I made the mistake of revisiting conversations and trying to make my family see from my point of view. It got be nowhere and it set me back. I tortured myself by trying to ask about how my siblings were - it is so hard to break those bonds - but they gave us no choice.

I found groups like this helpful. Online articles and books helpful. I think you do live with the pain of estrangement like you live with grief but one day it doesn't feel like EVERYTHING and there is a fulfilling life out there for you away from these nasty people.

@Damagedptsd so sorry to read your posts and understand some of the despairing feelings you are having. There's a moment for everyone I think where we fully wake up, eg realise these people do not have our best interests at heart. There are so many questions, why are they this way? It's likely they also had bad childhoods themselves and whatever abuse/neglect/harsh circumstances they suffered has resulted in a mental disorder that leaves them stuck in emotional immaturity and with shocking low levels of self awareness and empathy... because potentially they had to be selfish and self centred to survive.
I have been more of less no contact with my father for 5 years, apart from he recently came to my wedding. Big mistake. He was horrendous and for weeks and months after he polluted my thoughts and ultimately I was plunged into a fairly deep depression when I should have been enjoying my married life. I will never ever see him again. This period prompted intense flashbacks, maybe of which has made me view my mother in a different light, combined with some of her comments and behaviour of late, I am stopping making any effort... tbh I have been low contact with her, both of them since I left home (got kicked out) at 17, now I am 40. I am slowly beginning to care less. Unfortunately she follows me on FB and feel like she's doing her best to re-engage me, commenting semi nice things eg 'pretty' when I post a picture - she's never called me this in real life. It's weird. All LC is leave you questioning yourself whenever they come back into your life. I don't imagine I will go NC with her but it's super minimal effort from her on in. I am working through everything with a therapist right now, I think eventually my mum will say something to ask why we don't come see her anymore. There's loads of excuses I can give eg we have a small child, it's a long journey, was have a dog and they have a cat so that can be awkward, they don't really have the space for us etc etc... or do I just tell the truth and say more or less 'well actually mum, since the wedding and seeing dad, I have been having a lot of flashbacks from my childhood most of them are not good at all, and whilst a lot of them are centred around dad, quite a few also involve you, and ultimately it's clear you allowed unhealthy, abusive and neglectful dynamics to continue in the family, which have been really damaging for me. I am working through everything with a therapist, so would just like some space for now' ... something like that.
We're moving house in a couple of months and going to hold off giving anyone in my family my address. Only a small handful of people will have it, we will be ex-directory and have generic addresses for any business stuff we do etc, just whatever it takes to disappear when it comes to my family.
Ultimately I just want peace and quiet now, and just minimal triggers. Unfortunately this likely means letting the relationship with my brother go, who is enmeshed with my Dad and who still sees my mum (parents divorced when were 18 and 20). I am sure neither of them have anything good to say about me, which will be partly why he makes no effort with me. It's sad but it's impossible to build a relationship with him, he has a busy life, his own family and we don't live close, and he is clearly very loyal (brain washed) to our parents.
I am just so tired of them all.

I've just posted this on the narc mothers phrases thread but thought I'd add it here too. I changed my username to post it because I made it for another site where people know me. Please feel free to use it as a bingo card next time you have to deal with your narc mother, and my sympathies for all those who identify with it.

Could you link to the Narc mother phrases thread please?

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/

Thanks!

There are 2, this one is nearly full
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4610023-to-ask-for-your-quotes-from-narcissistic-mothers?page=10&reply=120137888
so someone started this one
www.mumsnet.com/talk/parenting/4637853-quotes-from-narcissistic-mothers-support-for-their-victims-thread-2?reply=120156727

How the hell do I go about selling a property I only own 25% of that they are refusing to sell? Their part is owned in cash, mine is mortgaged. No matter how many times I told them that for me there is no financial gain, my ‘father’ refuses to give permission to sell, using the excuse that it’s for his grand-daughter in the future. My thoughts? It’s all about control. For the first year of me owning a property he refused to visit. He didn’t help with the deposit, I got nothing. It’s one big power trip.

I dread an email from the letting agent, a bill from the ground rent company, this is killing me. Legally does anyone know if I can do anything?

Sorry to muscle in here, I thought I'd try to see a counsellor, my problems are a lot to do with family like all of you on here. I tried one counsellor about 3 years ago and felt like I was talking into a void, she didn't ask much or give advice, so I gave up after 3 sessions.

Started a new counsellor today and she seemed nice and asked a lot, but she told me that probably at the next session she would stop asking so many questions because 'It's YOUR therapy and we are just walking alongside you holding a torch'. (she had asked if I'd had previous counselling). Hmmm. I mean what I want is insights, like on this thread. So that sounds a bit ominous really
What use is that kind of therapy?

So can anyone tell me what sort of therapist I need to look for, like what qualifications and what style of therapy? Should it be a proper psychotherapist rather than just a counsellor? Where would I find one in that case?

TIA

UKCP or
BACP

UKCP tends to be for Psychotherapists rather than counsellors .
Psychotherapists are trained to go into more depth and for longer term therapy. The quality of therapists can really vary, so it’s worth looking at how long they have been qualified, how much training they have done and whether they were required to be in weekly therapy during training. Amazingly,
some courses do not require this.

@SilverLiningPlaybook thanks so much! I think I need to go for the UKCP then rather than just a counsellor. I suppose they're more highly qualified. Will probably be more expensive I guess.

I am hoping this counsellor is better than the last one so I'll give her a go for a bit, but honestly with my first counsellor it was like talking to myself. And she didn't seem particularly interested. Money for old rope if you ask me, I don't know how anyone finds that approach helpful.

I think the idea is by talking you have the insights on your own, but I doubt it's that easy really

I know I don't really belong here, so I hope you don't mine me asking for some advice as I'm sure this is the thread to get it.

Younger sibling to a controlling, lying, manipulative golden, realised a long time ago that the only way forward for me was to move far away as soon as I could. I took the drastic version and left the UK. Current status is LC. Golden One has become more and more controlling esp with the arrival of children (DN's). Anything I have said over the years has been shut down immediately or put down to spite etc etc. Except now they are seeing the truth of what I have been (punished for) saying ever since I was a child. Gradually over the past 7 years the Golden One has lost some shine due to her treatment of eldest DN. And as DP's are getting elderly (and DN is choosing to spend more time with them) they are beginning to feel the effects on themselves.

DF, who is not in great health, wants to meet me to discuss what's going to happen to DM after he is gone and how I am going to protect her from GO.

Apart from wanting to incredulously say "you created this monster, now you want me deal with it?" I don't know how to face this. On the one hand I want to say, tough and walk away. On the other, I know GO will make DM's life a misery and probably ruin her, financially and mentally. Am at a loss as to what he actually wants me to do. I mean, I have a life, family and home in another country and I have no intention of ever moving back.

Has anyone been in this situation and can advise on boundaries.

@Sheepwalker - I hate to break it to you but there's sod all you can do about this. Any involvement on your part will just pour petrol onto the fire. Remember the saying, "No good deed goes unpunished".

You didn't say whether your sibling is a brother or sister?

My toxic sibling is a younger sister who is a complete nightmare. It is not possible to have any kind of relationship with these people. It will ALWAYS blow up in your face.

@Sheepwalker I have a narcissist "golden one" sibling who created havoc all my life, went NC years before I realised "DM" is a narcissist too, now NC with her. From my experience there is nothing you can do with these people, their behaviours are completely ingrained and unless they can gain insight into their behaviour (I don't think they can), they will not change.

Perhaps you could suggest to your father he takes legal advice about protecting finances and ask would he consider counselling, maybe your mother would too?

But protect yourself by not getting involved and tell him why. Your toxic sibling will wreak havoc on your mental health if you allow yourself to be dragged back in. You will be setting yourself on fire to keep your mother warm.

@Parishcouncil Sounds like you could use some legal advice on your situation. Dreading the sound of the letterbox is an awful feeling.

Best to ask in the legal section. Good luck.

Well done to you for going LC, moving away and making a life of your own.

However I think that your boundaries are not as strong as they need to be evidenced by the amount of information you have on your siblings activities. Either your DF/DM are emotionally dumping on you to overload or you are keeping an unhealthy interest in her life. Both of which means she is living still rent free in your head and sucking up your finite emotional capacity (which could be invested in nicer people, experiences etc).

I would look closer at both of your parents and try to understand which one of them facilitated her behaviours which negatively impacted you and essentially threw you under the bus.

I would also then consider that you reap what you sow. I would close down all conversations about your sibling with your parents and point them in the direction of professional services.

Be really firm here - because the distance, stability and good life you have built could be turned inside out by even entertaining any conversations with your parents.

Try to step back emotionally, by detaching in your head and consciously re-focus your emotions on your own children/partner/friends/life as a preventative and protective strategy.

Sheepwalker

You have physical distance but you indeed need to put far more mental distance between you and your family of origin. I would think that both your parents here have facilitated the GO's behaviour over the years and frankly they reap what they have sown. Sounds harsh but they've given you no real consideration and want you now to clear up their mess, a dysfunctional mess they themselves created. Your current LC status with these people needs urgently to be further lowered because they are taking up too much space in your head.

AS DFOD writes, "I would close down all conversations about your sibling with your parents and point them in the direction of professional services".

ParishCouncil

I would seek legal advice on this point asap but I fear there is nothing you can do as you only have part interest in the property. Does dad here own the other 75% outright?.

@AttilaTheMeerkat
There are 4 of us. You are correct: my father & my mother who both own their 50% in cash.
DH & I have our 50% fully mortgaged. I now have to get a third job solely to fund the expenses and running fees of it despite my pleas to sell & his ‘awareness’ (use of the word is obviously very loose) of my chronic pain & degenerative health conditions.

Mother has dyscalculia so struggles with this side (which I do believe he has abused) and is his flying monkey regardless. DH won’t do anything without my consent regarding them.

@Escapingafter50years and @DFOD Yes, many thanks, I will do xx

Posts on here make me realise just how strong we are. How strong we have to be.

@Escapingafter50years Perhaps you could suggest to your father he takes legal advice about protecting finances yes, I can do this. But I don't see how much that will help if GO insists or effectively blackmails DM.

@Sicario older sister

@DFOD yes DP talk about her and about DN's because they are their life. I don't have direct contact, nor do I ever ask about her. Both essentially threw me under the bus, mainly DF but DM never or rarely went against him.

@AttilaTheMeerkat Sounds harsh but they've given you no real consideration and want you now to clear up their mess, a dysfunctional mess they themselves created. This is exactly how I feel and what I said to DH. He thinks I should hear them out (they'll visit us soon) and see what they want. But realistically, what could I do?

what sort of professional services should I be pointing them towards?

This is an AIBU but really needs to be on this thread. My mother is a head-screwing narcissist and is really messing me up atm. Her traits are for another day (years of therapy) but atm she’s guilt-tripping me about my dad. She’s adamant I should have him for Christmas even though she divorced him 30 years ago. I loathe my father. All I want is to go NC with him. So much so that I now have panic attacks if I have to deal with him. I’ve stayed in touch on a very superficial basis until now because I’m his only living relative and I feel guilty but now he’s terminally ill and looking to me for everything and it’s too much. When I was a child he had an affair while working away from home and stopped paying the mortgage without telling my mum so the first she knew was when bailiffs turned up to change the locks. He’s vile with women, all a woman has to do is smile at him and he thinks she’s interested, even if she’s in her late teens (he’s 82). He’s forever telling me about which women find him attractive (he’s completely deluded) and how attractive his doctors are (“Oh, yes, she’s very much a woman”). As I’ve got older, I’ve also become a target for inappropriately sexual behaviour from him (generally verbal/emotional but occasionally physical). He got upset and argued with me while he was staying with us because I wouldn’t let 4yo DS watch him dress (obviously I never allow it, or allow them to be alone together). I recently set up social services help for him for the second time and he has rejected it again because he wants me to be his carer and has told me so. When he is with me he regularly pushes himself until he collapses (including a stroke and a heart attack while I was 6 and 8 months pregnant respectively). The stress was bad enough that I had a high blood pressure incident and my midwife ordered me not to see him again until DD was born. Two psychologists (my therapists not his) have said it sounds as if he is self-harming so I will care for him. I loathe him being anywhere near me as he makes me deeply uncomfortable as a woman. He’s the kind of man who makes your skin crawl, that you’d just avoid like the plague if you met him casually. I haven’t spoken to him for three weeks since he rejected SS help and truly never want to hear his voice again. DH is adamant he’s not coming for Christmas and possibly never again. Mum says I’m being mean by not having him for Christmas as he’ll be alone. Am I? I’m pretty sure I’m not. Is NC unreasonable? I was going to post on AIBU but I need people who understand the subtle nuances of abuse. Thank you for your kindness on this thread. It’s a place of refuge.

Just an example of my mother’s behaviour so I feel I have a pass onto this thread - lifetime insecurity and unworthiness creeping in… A few years ago I left abusive ex-husband, marital home and professional, hard-earned, highly paid job in the same week following a serious breakdown, largely due to abusive husband, with whom mother used to commiserate about how I awful I was. It was my grandfather’s birthday the next day and I woke up with one of those evil colds that you only get when you’ve been through a massive emotional trauma. I spruced myself up for lunch at a hotel, put on smart clothes, took every pill under the sun and turned up on time to collect her then my grandparents. She opened the door, took one look at me and said “you’re not wearing any makeup”. I took a deep breath and said brightly “I’m feeling rotten but I made the effort with everything else”. She looked at me as if I was a worm and said “you’re such a fucking martyr”. That was ten years ago; I’m in a good place these days and she rarely gets to me but my relationship with my dad is a tinder-box.

💐💐
Thats the thing. Some of us keep crawling back for more punishment. As if a part of us believes there is really something wrong with us, and our mothers will suddenly realise we are worthwhile after all. I speak for myself too when I say this.