April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Thankyou to everyone who responded to my post about friendships & for opening up to me.

Not great at all here. Compiled a list of all the actions, etc that were just ‘wrong’ & wholly unacceptable as I grew up to present day & am currently on my 5th A4 page.

There’s a song out at the mo and the lyric is ‘and the memories brings back memories’. So true. So so true.

My GP rang to discuss all my meds & as it happened I was an emotional wreck at the time talking things through with a friend. My GP said very kindly that it sounded like I needed to see him. My friend kept my child & I was in his room within the hour. The Mental Health team within the practice are looking after me now. I know the NHS get slated but he was worth his weight in gold last week.

I keep going through the wording of my ‘brothers’ email & the gaslighting in it is just so toxic. Claiming I’ve misremembered situations even where I have witnesses.

And I keep playing over in my head all the attempts & efforts I made to be part of their family…setting up the family whatsapp, the Letter of Intent regarding who will have my child if we die, continuing to try to arrange meet-ups no matter how many times we got let down & purposely pushed out.

The ultimate betrayal at the end from my ‘mother’ killed all chance of me speaking to any of them again. It’s textbook narcissistic triangulation, scapegoating & splitting. Telling me repeatedly she never speaks about me & refusing to talk to my ‘brother’ to try and make things better for fear of making it worse yet the email from him tells me she’s spoken about me twice this year already and only in a negative way, she’s clearly fabricated and concocted a story and he felt fit to tell me they have ‘hearts of gold’ & he ‘can’t see any reason as to why I am so nasty to them’.

I didn’t deserve this. I wish my Nan was here 😥She knew. And my Grandad. I miss them so much.

It's surprisingly hard to remove oneself from a toxic family dynamic. The patterns are so deeply entrenched that they are nigh-on impossible to change.

You cannot change the behaviour of toxic people.

Even after I had gone NC, I would still receive passive-aggressive shit in the post from my toxic sister. Sometimes it would be disguised as a gift or a greetings card, but the intention was always the same. It was always an attempt at "hoovering" to get me back into the drama game, or something sent supposedly for one of my daughters with a message that was clearly designed to get back to me.

It all went in straight in the bin.

Then I moved house/location and didn't share my whereabouts with any of my family of origin. Of course, this made me the worst person in the universe and drove my toxic sister nuts.

Everything we do to remove ourselves is another step in removing any power they think they hold over us.

I have absolutely no time for toxic people and the games they play. They bring nothing but trouble and misery, and that's what they thrive on.

I would encourage anyone in this kind of situation to consider themselves like a castle - build a piranha infested moat around yourself and pull up the drawbridge. Entry is by invitation only.

Hey folks,

Powerful words there @Sicario - especially about the castle. I am in a situation right now where I am deciding whether to go NC with my Mum whilst also planning on moving house to 'forever home' in October. 'Disappearing' would make me feel safer I believe, so that felt pertinent to me. I still want my brother to be in my life but I just don't want my address to get to either of my parents. I started with a new therapist this week, seems ok, I managed to speak about some of the inappropriateness from my father / bordering on sexual abuse / suspected sexual abuse, and go through all the flashbacks that I have been having. They come thick and fast - they relate mostly to abuse from father but lots of stuff from my Mum, all stuff I buried or not things I mentally stitched together until now. It's life events triggering, the wedding, parenting for the first time and prob feeling safe now I am married and have a new family.
I am also reading about narcissistic fathers and another positive book about parenting, so there are positive and negative triggers everywhere. I too like you @Parishcouncil am documenting all of these. It's such a long long list now. My therapist said the environment was so unsafe growing up for me, that felt validating.
I know I don't have to do anything about my mum, but I like to be honest with everybody about how I am feeling, she said hold back and protect yourself and she is right. I have invited my Mum to my 1 year olds bday party, I regret this and will not be doing this again, I need to move from doing things that I think I should do to things I want to do only, I need to be able to enjoy my time at big events without my weird mum killing the vibe. She is staying in a hotel though thank god and hopefully won't come as has an operation a few weeks before. It's a chance to test out new boundaries I guess.

Hugs everyone x

Toxic people ignore boundaries. They will cross them every time. It's part of their modus operandi. There is absolutely no point in trying to set down boundaries or get them to see your point of view. They are incapable of modifying their behaviour.

It's like the fable of The Scorpion And The Frog. The scorpion stings the frog, effectively killing them both, because he's a scorpion and he cannot help his nature.

Toxic people never change. They will draw you in then sting EVERY TIME.

Once you realise that none of this is your fault, you must then learn to drop the rope and walk away. This requires emotional detachment. Easier said than done, yes, but an essential part of your recovery from the toxic swamp.

@Parishcouncil please think very carefully before sharing your new address with anybody linked to your FOO (family of origin). These things have a habit of getting out. Will the person you have shared the information with be able to keep it confidential? I'm reminded of the adage "two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead".

Recovering from the scapegoat role takes years. Learn everything you can about toxic family dynamics because it really helps you make sense of what has happened to you.

I've namechanged to avoid any recognition in real life.

I recently had a long awaited happy occasion and the family narc (for want of a better description, and thankfully she is only extended family and lives overseas) had to be there. My siblings were primed to avert potential drama which is typical at these events, however Narc outdid herself on this occasion however her enabler (my close relative) suffered a health emergency at the same time which diverted most of the plan. I believe was absolutely linked to the dramas caused.

So here's where I am.
The event went pretty much off as planned thankfully. The massive effort Narc made to derail the whole thing and ruin it for me failed to fully go off in this instance but it did have enough of an impact, if not the nuclear implosion she wanted. And the behaviour was widely witnessed by others and seen for what it was.

Enabler is recovering, but not out of the woods yet. History has been rewritten to put the blame of the drama I was a direct witness to on someone else, and the other dramas the enabler assumes that I don't know about. So my plan here is to just let them think I'm none the wiser because otherwise their health will suffer..

I don't think I'll have to see Narc in person in the foreseeable future. And if an event does crop up, I can probably come up with an excuse as to why I can't make it. I'm in a whatsapp chat with them but tbh, I never did contribute much except the occasional one-liner. So I can easily grey rock there.

Siblings think they know what she's like but only to a superficial extent.

But I'm so fucking angry.
I knew narc didn't like me after I failed to fawn over her or trip over myself to be yet another enabler for her some years ago. So I was expecting some drama but I vastly underestimated how much her apparent hatred of me drove her. I know my silence and apparently obliviousness to it probably sticks in her craw (I hope it does) If she had succeeded, she would have destroyed not only my happy occasion, but also destroyed an important relationship in my life and also soured many others as well.

How do I process my anger? Even now, I'm as angry as I was weeks ago when it happened. I'm angry at the damage that WAS done to people I love in order to get to me, but also angry at how awful it could have been. How do I deal with these feelings?

Your anger and rage is real and warranted.

You were under attack and in danger.

These characters want to annihilate you - that’s an existential threat and your strong feelings are proportionate and appropriate.

Validate your feelings and attend to them.

Find a safe emotional place to explore and express them (few counselling sessions? A journal? Here? trusted friend - all of the above) and process it slowly, calmly and thoroughly - so that you come to your own personal coherent narrative that sits authentically with your feelings and experiences and is not compromised or clouded by worrying about what others think of you or trying to tell a crazy toxic story.

The whole Narc dynamic is cliched and predictable.

We could all write the same pantomime script with the same core characters and dynamics - just with different names, situations and events.

Step back and up to look over the whole system and feel confident that you saw it before others and maybe even bizarrely flattered / justified in that your indifference enraged the Narc further.

Don’t fall into the trap of raging behind their back with other relatives - there is no point and this will inadvertently feed any narrative or smear the other was peddling.

It sounds like you are in shock from events and still reverberating. Need to come back to balance.

Take it easy. It will take time to come through the shock, more time to process what happened and more time again to consider how you will need to change how / if you interact with the main character going forward and if other relationships will inevitably be collateral damage in order to keep you emotionally safe.

Thank you so much DFOD. What you say makes so much sense - I'd not recognised that I've been in shock but yes, that's what I feel, particularly with the health emergency which could have been fatal.

I do think I need to get some therapy, and allow myself some time to recover from it all.

I'm really sorry to hear what happened with your event @ItsaMetalBand , the only potential positive is that it shows a light on the narc and their behaviour and you know that others have seen it.

I would definitely seek therapy, it can be very helpful in figuring out how to process things.

I had a phone call from my mum yesterday, absolutely in pieces. My cousin has been given a terminal cancer diagnosis. I feel so sorry for them, and for my aunt (mum's eldest sister) but I didn't fall apart like I was expected to.

I don't know my cousin. I'm 20 years younger than them and because my mum fell out with her mum and her sisters from when I was about 6 to 17 (and we weren't allowed to mention their names), I don't have any relationship or connection with them. I feel bad for my mum and her sister, and so sorry for my cousin and their children.

It's a gift that keeps on giving, this odd family estrangement that happened but we have to pretend it didn't happen. And I'm expected to have all this demonstrative sadness for someone I know less than I do an acquaintance from down the street.

Spotchnot, that's so sad about your cousin and her family.

I understand what you mean - my narc was the point of contact with other relatives then she got mortally offended over a non-issue by a third party and cut all contact for some bizarre reason. Then a potential impartial contact died so it would require a PI to locate them now. And we are supposed to not mention their names so as not to upset Narc.

That's happened so many times - a massive fallout for years and then...nothing. No apology, no making amends, just picking up like it was a silly spat that happened yesterday and can't ever be mentioned.

@Findingithard43

I’m really glad you had a good time away with your partner. The mantra has to be with anyone who’s endured a shit childhood is that I’m worth it. You deserve great holidays, you deserve a wonderful partner.

And you have done nothing to deserve a crap mother or her treatment of you now. That’s all so snarky. Your mum is probably jealous of your new partner and you doing nice things. You are quite right to make some distance. Therapy is great. It’s helped me immeasurably with my toxic utterly vile MIL aka The Hag.

GREAT about the counselling. It really, really helps. The constant worry is fight or flight. My DP has it as he never knew what was coming next from his awful mother when he was growing up. He’s really let go of a lot of his tendency to worry through therapy.
My therapy has given me permission to cut her out of my life.

@feistymumma what everyone says; think of your email as a closing door. They NEVER admit they are wrong or take responsibility. Good for you for drawing a line. There is no point trying to think through what goes on in their heads. I’ve given up and gone for a life of no dealing with it.
Personally speaking going NC with toxic MIL has saved me from real mental illness. My DP is LC - it’s too hard for him to completely cut her off, but, wow, he is so much tougher.

@chatterbug22 I’m so sorry this is happening to you. Your sister is angling for a fight, she didn’t get one at her wedding (eye roll at why anyone would want to sabotage their own wedding) and the next project is her baby. Really, really try and step away. She is doing EVERYTHING to get conflict. Therapy is amazing for giving you permission to set boundaries, let go of the things that you can’t control E.g. her behaviour and you are supported to unpick your childhood and see the patterns which then gives you an armour of steel to protect yourself. HUGS. You WILL get through this.

@Parishcouncil huge hugs to you. You’re really going through it. I’m so angry on your behalf at your family’s behaviour.
Total nasty game playing.
Keep talking to your GP and the MH team there. This is a really painful step in the journey to recovery. I admire you so much for the steps you are taking.

@sicario I love the castle idea. My drawbridge is well and truly drawn against The Hag Toxic MIL. Never again will she cross this threshold.

@winningeasy so sorry about your situation. I’m loving your plans of separation. Don’t kick yourself about the birthday party - we always try and do the right thing (they don’t) because we’re not toxic. Glad she’s in a hotel.

@ItsaMetalBand it is completely OK to be angry. It really is. It’s also frustrating to be the one who KNOWS and seeing the people who are hoodwinked.
The narcs never give up on their attempts to wreck things. Why do they think this is OK? Total rhetorical question there.

@Spotchnot this awful outcome for your cousin is often the type of situation that narcs make about them. They bask in it. My toxic MIL adores misery and recounting it. I think it then becomes about her. She knows this person yada yada yada. It’s not actually her story to tell. At every corner, they make it about them.

OK-ish here. Had therapy this morning. Wonderful woman praised me again for my boundaries. I hadn’t seen her since early August as she was on holiday and in the intervening period we had THE FAMILY MEAL (now legendary) where Hag MIL was AWFUL. Top of the scale. Like Xmas. I didn’t speak to her during the meal because I couldn’t bear her behaviour, I didn’t hug her when leaving, I just left.
I told my SIL (rarely in contact with her MIL) how Hag has behaved, how it has got worse, just what the lay of the land is. Very proud of myself for not pretending with SIL that this isn’t going on. Therapist thinks I’m smashing it.

Went to the Drs - I have huge health anxiety - this morning. I’m going to have some ultrasounds for some issues. Terrifying as I think a cold will morph into pneumonia. If it is something dodgy, I am NOT having the Hag knowing anything. I do not want her saccharine bullshit anywhere near me or Mr Monkey. She will use it to hoover him back in. It will become about her.

I remember when she was ill with what was probably Covid in March 2020. They ran loads of tests because C-19 wasn’t known about and they couldn’t find what ailed her (build up of toxins if you ask me)

One of the tests was for cancer.

The witch was still staying at our house (god help me) and she created a big drama out of it.

“Shall I tell your mum or shall you”

Me as I’d fuckimg lost it with her by then. I do not need the drama anymore.

“It’s your health, you tell her”.

My mother also sick of the drama when she arrived to help Hag with something (part of the campaign to get her out of the house - we were all signed up) was greeted by Hag sitting on our sofa practically preening at the thought of her moment in the sunny uplands basking in attention.

“I’ve got something to tell you. They think I’ve got cancer”

Drumroll.

“Well, you’ve not had the tests yet, so best to be positive. I’ll put the kettle on and then we can talk about moving you back to your flat”.

Love my mother.

Thank you so much @MonkeyfromManchester for your support. It means a lot. I have found a therapist now who seems good. I specifically told her about the narcissist stuff and we had an initial consultation. I explained that I’d had counselling in the past where the therapist didn’t understand about my family issues. She says she uses a trauma-informed approach. I am going to start that at the beginning of next month and I am looking forward to it.

i went to stay with my sister at the weekend and we caught up on childhood memories. She 100% agrees that our mum is a covert narc. My sister has it both easier and worse than me in that she is the scapegoat and always has been. For example, my mum still criticises her for having had a c-section rather than a natural birth and for not giving up work to care for DC. She sends her articles about child-rearing that suggest she’s not a good mum because she doesn’t do what is suggested in the article (eg raising DC bilingual). She doesn’t criticise me as much because I have been more compliant throughout my life but my sister said that being the scapegoat makes it easier for her to emotionally dissociate from her.

Since her snarky holiday comment, I haven’t spoken to my mum but I do need to today. I am going to keep it light, breezy and matter of fact.

I will keep telling myself that I deserve nice things. I still feel insecure and wonder why my partner would want to be with me. It’s so hard to heal from having not one but two shit parents and not having that self-esteem that others take for granted. The thing that helps a bit is remembering that despite having this crappy experience, I am not like either of my parents. I am not a narcissist and I don’t manipulate people. That helps a little in telling myself that I deserve to be happy.

Your MIL sounds absolutely awful by the way. Glad you’re getting through it.

Hi All - I'm sorry I haven't posted in months. I am just finding it so hard to post as I am still grieving my DS and the behaviour of my FOO has been appalling. I also am feeling really guilty as I would love to acknowledge everyone else who is suffering and surviving their toxic family, but I am finding that really hard too. Please bear with me.

@ChiswickFlo you are spot on when you said that toxic family members revel in times of serious illness and bereavement. I'm heartbroken that it took the death of my DS to find out. My therapist has said I am dealing with a double helping of grief.

I confronted my DM, DF and DSis over their behaviour whilst DS was dying and they way they sensationalized his death - even going so far as to tell relatives my DS of his death a day before he actually died - but refused to contact the relatives to correct their mistake when I asked them too. (I really wish this was not true). DSis argued, denied and then blamed DM and DF. Now she and DF have gone NC with me, even defriending me from all social media. They ignored DD2's and my birthday.

DM initially ignored me, but now sends me constant lovebombing messages. I rarely respond but when I do it is the grey rock type. A month ago I wrote her a long message - about what she did wrong over my DS and how I felt. She completely ignored me for a month, but then responded with some more lovebomb messages - completely ignoring how I felt!

I know that I am much better off without them and going NC was inevitable. My friends have been amazing in supporting me through my grief over DS- but I can't talk to them really about my FOO. I told two of my closest friends and even DH simply can't understand it - I think they are too horrified/shocked to even comprehend it. Not sure how to deal with this and I am also in shock that they have gone NC with me during what is the hardest time of my life.

How long does it take to get over losing toxic family members? What helps you?

@MyFragility sending you so much love during this extremely hard time for you and your family. I hope you are very kind and gentle to yourself, you deserve a lot of self love and self care right now, we are here for you also if you ever need to vent

Mega hugs xx

I am so sorry @MyFragility - how utterly awful for you. It takes years to recover from toxic family dynamics. It is often very similar to complex-PTSD and the damage can run very deep.

Something that helped me was to be open and honest with other people that I am No Contact with my family for very good reason. I don't have to elaborate on it, and people who know me also know that I'm a reasonable person. People who I have newly met seem to open up suddenly about how they too have problem family dynamics.

During my real-life encounters, I have been taken aback at how many other people are dealing with toxic family members.

It's not a big topic of conversation for me because I have cut them all out of my life and I don't feel any need to talk about them to anybody. However they are still saying shitty things about me and I remain the family scapegoat.

Another thing that helped me was to learn as much as I could about toxic family relationship dynamics, how they work, and how to recognise the patterns and behaviours. Learning about things like Triangulation, Narcissistic Behaviours, Cluster B personality disorders. This has all helped me a lot.

Sending my deepest condolences for your loss.

MyFragility

There are no words re your FOO but I have seen narcissistic people around death and indeed they do make another person's death all about them.

You will ultimately need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got.

@MyFragility i am so sorry to hear what you have been through and are going through. It must be so incredibly tough for you. i agree that you need to grieve and process all of this.

i am currently waiting for my therapy to start at the beginning of October as my therapist was taking a holiday for 2 weeks so I thought it was best to wait until she was back from that to begin properly. I feel a bit apprehensive but I am looking forward to properly processing it.

i have worked out that I have an anxious attachment style as a result of what I went through. I have a fear that people will leave me and a deep rooted feeling that I am not enough. That’s been rearing its head quite a lot this week so I am focusing on myself and trying to do lots of self care and remembering that I am a worthy person who deserves good things. It’s so so hard though - its amazing what level of damage toxic parenting can do. My favourite tip today is that when you get intense feelings of anxiety, remember that you don’t need to act on them - you can park dealing with them until another time. I am also seeing the anxiety as a purely physical reaction like heartburn - not pleasant but also not a reflection of me as a person.

@winningeasy - thank you for your kind words.

@Sicario - thank you for telling me about you experience. I was surprised to hear that it takes years to recover from toxic relationships - but at the same time, I guess I shouldn't be. It is also interesting to note that you are open to others knowing that you are NC with your family.

@AttilaTheMeerkat - yes I definitely am grieving for the FOO I didn't have - this puts it into context and also explains why I feel so let down.

@Findingithard43 - thank you for your tips, especially the one about parking the feelings and dealing with them at another time and about thinking of feelings as physical sense.

So my sister is demanding to meet me, saying the ball is in my court

I literally freeze whenever she texts me and can feel myself getting anxious before I even read the message.

Can anyone think of a good comeback? I haven’t even figured out what I fully want. I can’t go NC because the rest of my family would never understand, plus I feel gutted at the thought of no relationship with DN. But my sister continues to be manipulative and wants everything on her terms. It’s really hard work.

My OH thinks I should just meet her, that I’m maybe building it up in my head to be worse than it would actually be - possibly true. He is of the mind to not give her an inch. I think she would always find an inch anyway, and that’s kind of the problem.

Know I probably sound like a stuck record at this point!

Should I agree to meet her, but my friend will be there too? (She vaguely knows this person) Or does that look like I’m afraid of her.

She wants to meet to ‘sort this out’. She refers to it as if it’s a joint problem rather than her controlling and unpleasant behaviours.

How's everyone holding up this week?

Nothing much to report here. Apart from perhaps me finally accepting my emotional fragility and slowing down a lot. I am feeling less compelled to do stuff because I think I should. This new season is helping me focus on self care. Weirdly feeling less anger towards my parents, their importance is fading considerably.

My goal for next 12 months is to try to have a conversation with my brother about our childhood but he's very hard to organise anything with. Sadly it doesn't look like he's going to come to my daughter's first birthday party as his wife works on Saturday's. So just my socially awkward, rude, negative mother coming from my family then!

Hugs x

@winningeasy will there be many other people there? Happy birthday to your lovely LO.

It’s freeing realising you can’t fix people I think, nor make them see the issue. I am not quite at the point yet and still feel sick every day over everything to do with my sister, feel like if anything it’s getting worse and there would never be a good time to step back as she has always got something huge going on in her life that overshadows everything else and would make me inconsiderate for stepping away from

@chatterbug22 what do you want to do?

I think perhaps give yourself a couple of days (or weeks) to work that out.

It's not a terrible idea to have back up / someone to supervise / mediate. But this person has to be fully on your side. Likewise I think it's a totally valid choice to not meet up with her. How do you feel about ignoring her? Not blocking. But just ignoring, or very short responses like 'sorry I am not up for meeting up' or just 'No' (which is a complete sentence when dealing with toxic people)

Is your OH fully in the loop as to what has been going on? Family dynamics etc? It's really important you can get his support and he's not pushing you in any direction. It's your choice.

@chatterbug22 yes lots of folk - all of DH's family who are lovely - his mum, his brother, his girlf, his dad and his girlfriend (all get on fine and gracefully even though his parents divorced), quits a few of DH's friends/ their children, then my friends from London, their children, and lots of local folk/ friends of our family, neighbours etc - maybe about 40 people with kids

Enough people that I can pretty much ignore my mum and her sly comments x