April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Toxic siblings are a nightmare. @chatterbug22 there is nothing you can do about your sister's behaviour.

I have a highly toxic sister, enabled by her twat DH. Their behaviour caused so much trouble that I went NC years ago. It's the only way to break the cycle.

Going NC with toxic people causes massive fall-out because you refuse to play that role any more and it leaves them impotent and angry. But they're like that anyway so it actually makes no difference.

The important skill to learn is to stop caring about what they say and do.

Sadly, going NC often means losing contact with family members you actually care about. That's why it can be such a hard decision. For me, I was not prepared to pay the price any more.

I have no regrets about my choice and only wish that I had done it much earlier. It would have saved me a great deal of heartache.

As @AttilaTheMeerkat often reminds us: the only acceptable level of abuse in a relationship is NONE. And that includes people we are related to.

@Sicario so you have a really similar situation yourself then. Does your sister have any children? If so, how did you manage with that? Was she always that way before her DH?

@DFOD thank you. It’s hard to accept but it is true, my OH says the same as you in that there’s no point trying to understand why she is how she is. She just is. It is true about the wedding, I thought I could breathe afterwards but of course there is now this that she can use to hoover me in.

chatterbug22

re your comment
"I just can’t see how she would turn out this way when we both had the same upbringing".

You and she did not have the same upbringing.

My H said similar but he did not have the same upbringing either particularly upon closer examination between sibling and his parents. People from dysfunctional families end up playing roles which are interchangeable too.

Drop the rope these people hold out to you.

I hope everyone is doing well and I am drawing strength from some of the stories on here and not feeling alone. I have done some more soul searching and I am pretty sure now that my mum is what is known as a covert narcissist. Coupled with my dad's more overt narcissism, I never stood a chance really. I am so gutted that I missed out on a normal and loving childhood. I just feel so broken and damaged sometimes.

I went on a trip away with my new partner and it was so wonderful to get away from everything and just have a happy time. I didn't feel stressed or depressed at all when I was away. When I came back, I saw my mum and showed her some of the photos and said what a good time I had had and her response was total dismissal and even a comment that "I'm surprised you enjoyed it as I thought you hated holidays" (wtf). She has shown zero interest in wanting to meet him (suits me fine actually because I feel embarrassed about coming from such a fuck-up family).

I have also started to realise that some of the stuff that my mum has reinforced to me isn't true. She told me that she thinks I have autism because I don't want to hug her all the time and never did as a kid. Interestingly, when I used to tense up as a kid, she would force the hug on me - she never backed off and it's still there. In fact, when I am with my partner and other people I care about, I am quite affectionate and definitely not cold. She complains that I don't 'open up' to her but has never created the conditions to make me even remotely want to do that. I have never confided in her about anything really as it always felt so wrong.

I think I will try to find a therapist to try to work through this stuff actually. I really don't want to screw up my relationship because of this. It's just so gutting realising how awful it all was and trying to move past that. I need to get to a point where I love myself. I am going to keep interactions fairly minimal from now on - I think NC isn't an option due to various reasons but I am definitely going to move away from my tendency to try desperately to please her.

I just need to remember that I am a good person and that this was not my fault and that I deserve better. It's so bloody hard though.

I'm not sure what I was hoping for after confronting my mother after years of childhood neglect and being highly critical of me even as an adult. Yesterday I sent her an email detailing how she had made me feel including some examples of things that have happened. Her response was merely thanks for letting me know. Have a great day. I'm not even hurt as I was expecting that sort of response from her. Her loss really

It is her loss. I read that people like that cannot ever accept that they were wrong so confrontation is totally pointless and might even give them more fodder for their claims to being a victim. I think the only thing you can do is detach from her and interact at a superficial level. Maybe think instead of the closure writing it gave you, regardless of how your mum reacted. Now you know you have done all you can and she has failed to respond, so you can move on.

Findingithard43

re your comment regarding your mother. My responses are underneath your quotes

"I am going to keep interactions fairly minimal from now on"

I would also further lower these going forward to a point of zero sum. It is NOT possible to have a relationship with someone this disordered of thinking.

"- I think NC isn't an option due to various reasons"
What reasons would these be?. Is your dad still with her, wider family?. Examine those far more closely and see if they really stack up; chances are they do not under closer scrutiny.

" but I am definitely going to move away from my tendency to try desperately to please her".

You can never please someone like this and you're probably also a people pleaser as a result. Such behaviour often starts by wanting to please a difficult or otherwise emotionally absent parent. Get therapy for any and all people pleasing tendencies you have; it is ok to have boundaries and it is ok to start saying no.

Back again I posted end JULY there's been radio silence from "capitulator" since the blow up happened.

I text them after a few weeks of nothing even though they promised that wouldn't happen. No reply.

Phoned them today on house phone and no reply I left a voicemail, they just called back sounding really weird saying they can't talk now. I pushed a little cos they sounded so weird. They then said narc was with them and they'd call me later.

This has me really stressed I think they are going to cut me off which really hurts me and would be really Fucking unfair as I've done nothing wrong

Other relatives encouraged me to contact capitulator they seemed under impression they were starting to stand up to narc I'm not convinced especially after todays experience

Would very much appreciate advice on how to proceed? I'm angry and hurt and I'm sick of being the one getting punished for having perfectly reasonable boundaries!

I have other friends etc but my family SHOULD prioritise me at least sometimes!!

I don't know how to handle any of this at all.

I'm not advising others here as I would hate to get it wrong but I totally sympathise and hate that you've been through similar or worse

Thanks so much @AttilaTheMeerkat and you are of course right. I know that deep down but I don’t feel strong enough at the moment to go NC. I am the worlds biggest people pleaser, to the extent that I completely neglect my own needs and feelings, in all sorts of situations. I always have been. I never had a rebellious phase because I was never allowed to develop a personality. I remember speaking back once or refusing to do something and the rage it triggered in my mum was something else so I never did that again. When I was a young teen dealing with huge upheaval and school bullying, I was told that she was having a tough time (she had just left my overt narcissist dad) so I needed to stop giving her grief. Sadly I listened to this and shut my feelings off so much that I didn’t really know who I was and simply acted how I thought people wanted me to.

i am going to stay at my sister’s house this weekend and we are going to have a debrief session. She also sees my mum for exactly who she is but lives further away and has distanced herself more. I am hoping that this will give me some strength and insight on how to move forward.

I am probably not good at the advice either but I think you have to step back. There is nothing wrong with your boundaries at all but this person obviously doesn’t feel able to assert their own ones. Maybe they will wise up eventually. I know that I have stuck up for the narc in the past and now I am realising that it was a mistake.
All you can do is be there when/if they eventually come around and realise the toxicity.

It's so hard! And so frustrating!

Yeah, I wouldn’t wish this stuff on my worst enemy

@Findingithard43 thank you. It's just so difficult trying to comprehend how someone like that thinks. I do now have closure although the things I raised are a fraction of what I have endured. The straw that broke the camels back was after mentioning that I was pregnant and I am actually far gone now with a massive bump which is obvious it's a pregnancy she replied saying oh she wouldn't have even noticed she would have just thought I was getting fatter. I'm not even fat but I have endured years of being mocked for being fat amongst other things so I said enough is enough

That's so awful - I am sorry. I wonder if it is a display of jealousy, that she feels threatened that you will now have a new baby so will be less available to her. I think the only thing you can do is remember that you are not like her at all. You are kind and empathetic and you will be a million times better mum than she was to you. It is also mind boggling to me that someone can act like that - there are some people who really shouldn't have children. My mum also clearly doesn't want me to be happy - keeping me miserable means that I am more dependent on her.

@Findingithard43 so sorry to hear about your mum. I don't understand this desire to see us miserable. How does that help

Posted too soon, how does that help them to see us miserable. I do feel really relieved that I addressed it. I didn't realise how much all of this has made me so angry over the years. I was more satisfied that I addressed it over any response she could ever give. If she fails to acknowledge my email then I am going no contact with her, I had already gone limited contact with her. I hope we can navigate out feelings to a better place for us away from our toxic mums

Yeah, I don't get it either but that is because neither of us are narcissists. I think that in the case of my mum, she has several children and each of them has a designated 'role'. So she is not that interested in them all developing a rounded and fulfilling life because they are just fulfilling a basic role like being good at their job, pretty, talented etc.
You did really well to address it all. You said what you wanted to say and you got closure. The fact that she can't deal with it is her problem, not yours. I think we need to let go of the dream that our mums will act like normal people would. They never will - they will never accept responsibility.

We'll never get it as we're not built the same.

But I wish it were easier to navigate the whole thing

I agree. I just worry that I won’t heal from it as it seems such a huge thing. I just heard back from a therapist that I had emailed and I have a free consultation tomorrow via zoom. I feel awful tonight - like I have been beaten up - but I guess it is a first step towards recovering.
I think the thing I find so hard is that I don’t trust myself at all. I worry that everything - job, relationship, finances - will just go to shit and that I am kidding myself. I’m hoping that speaking to someone will help me work through that, as well as speaking to my sister.

Toxic people never change.

Any attempt to reason with them is a complete waste of time.

They will NEVER admit any wrongdoing nor take responsibility for the impact of their words and actions.

Stay well away. Do not engage. It's the only route to a healthy, happy life.

Thanks everyone. I feel rather penned in, I don’t want to say trapped by my sister’s pregnancy but that is kind of how I feel considering the ways she’s behaving towards me still. I’ve always wanted a niece or nephew and I am thrilled for her that she is at such an exciting stage of life. But to say ‘she will not allow her child to be exposed to such toxicity’ - just wow. It stirs up my fight or flight and I want to react and say, me, toxic??? Honestly laughable. Makes me think she can’t even see her own behaviour. But I know that might be what she wants. If I want a relationship with her baby then I must see them as a package deal. Fair enough, could that be her setting boundaries? As @DFOD has pointed out it very much feels like she’s weaponising the baby. I just can’t get beyond that though, why would anybody do that.

She wants to either meet and resolve this / repair the sister relationship, as she would say, or leave it because it’s not good for her now she is pregnant to have any kind of negative feelings. Whenever I am going to a gathering where she is present I dread it, I always feel so sick. This was the case before her wedding too. Meeting her in my experience does not help things as she either becomes extremely reactive or will just gaslight me until I genuinely think it’s all my fault.

I have not been pregnant myself yet, so I don’t have firsthand experience of how that feels. But AIBU to think it’s just a bit of an excuse to hold something over me. It’s like she feels like is untouchable I think and can do and say what she pleases.

That sounds really frustrating. It must be difficult and I know that you want to have a relationship with your niece or nephew but your sister isn't going to change and she sounds quite toxic for you. It might be that you need to limit contact even if that means losing out on seeing her baby. She sounds pretty manipulative.

@chatterbug22 so sorry you're having such a tough time. I think you'd really benefit from some therapy. I think it would be worth delving into your childhood a bit more, and assessing relationships with your family generally. If she is narc then it's likely been passed on by one your parents, and you seem to playing out roles eg her the golden child and you the scapegoat, which possibly come from how you are raised. Your parents seem to be letting her get away with bad behaviour, and somehow putting her on a pedestal. I could be wrong, I am not a therapist of course, but if this resonates then know these roles are not based on who you both really are.
Like several other posters have suggested, I think some space and distance would be be for the best for both, whether this is very low contact or no contact at all. You don't have to make any decisions right now. I wouldn't even think about the baby at this stage, you've got to put yourself first. Maybe when the baby is born you can ask to come over to meet them, bring a gift, perhaps make any future contact focused around family events. In later life, hopefully the child will benefit from your positive influence. I think take each day, week, month, year as it comes for now though. Don't get sucked into her back and forth though as it's clearly getting you down.

Hugs x

@winningeasy thanks so much, really appreciate this. Think you’ve hit the nail on the head with most of what you’ve said

How is everyone? No notifications from this thread which is unusual… or are we all just having a chilled time at the minute?

@DFOD @MonkeyfromManchester @AttilaTheMeerkat @Sicario @winningeasy @KatharineofAragon @TheNewlmprovedMrsMadEvans