April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Westernesse

Do continue to keep both yourself and your family unit well away from your toxic parents/serial abusers.

Women like your mother cannot do relationships at all so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. Unsurprisingly too your dad is his wife's enabler and secondary abuser. He cannot be at all trusted nor relied upon either.

It is not your fault they are like this, you did not make them that way. Their own families did that (BTW do you know anything much about their own childhoods, that often gives clues).

I think their own childhoods were less than ideal. Both had lots of brothers and sisters and we are talking about working class Glasgow in the 50s and 60s.

I absolutely get that childhood shapes a person, but, at the same time, past trauma and experiences doesn’t excuse bad behaviour in grown adults who do have the ability to reason and to moderate their behaviour. They simply choose not to.

if I had a horrific childhood I may be damaged by it but it would not excuse me treating my children like shit.

Are personality disorders a real thing? I think so. But do they constitute illness or disability? I don’t think so. Personality disorders are IMO a deeper level of understanding of dickheads being dickheads.

Their childhood often has clues but indeed they had a choice when it came to you and they chose the low road; they chose to repeat what was done to them with you. It is indeed no excuse or justifications for their actions. The toxic crap that often comes down the generations has stopped with you because you have not continued this with your own children.

Personality disorders are a group of mental illnesses. They involve long-term patterns of thoughts and behaviours that are unhealthy and inflexible.
I personally think that practically all of the parents and other relatives other posters write about in this long running thread have some form of untreated - and untreatable - personality disorder/s.

That’s where I struggle. If it’s an illness do they have truly have free will in how they behave? And if not then is the behaviour excused to a degree or in some way deserving if sympathy?

I have encountered other narcs and I get the sense they actually cannot help it when they act out, but I refuse to feel sympathy given how their actions impact me? Then when I examine that I wonder if I am perhaps a narc for not being more sympathetic to the batshittery that they do?

Then I realise that if I was a narc I wouldn’t be asking myself that question.

so if NPD is untreatable, what hope is there generally? I suspect none. Perhaps as more and more descendants gradually break the cycle it can reduce and perhaps evolve out of the human psyche over time. I dunno.

Thankyou @failinghard for your words of wisdom, it really does give some clarity on the situation. I am slowly working my way through the old messages on this thread and got to reading your post. I'm sorry you had this experience but with both parents too. It does sound like you've come a long way in healing from this and coming to terms with the reality of it all. I'm hoping I can do the same!
My dad seems to opt for the easy life and acts on her every whim. She is super bossy with him, demanding he do things for her, he literally never stops. It's strange as my dad has a great career, he's assertive and level headed but when it comes to her this seems to change.
I've always had a good relationship with him, she used to work nights at which point my dad would do the majority of parenting. Some of my fondest memories are of being allowed to stay up late, my choice of TV show, eat junk food, going for ice cream sundaes together. Just the everyday stuff that meant more than he probably realised at the time.

Your question about growing up really struck a chord, I could instantly think of these good times with my dad but I really struggle with my mum. I don't really remember doing anything fun with her other than whats she's told me (or told others) we did. As a family we went to alot of National Trust places, garden centres, drives to places they had an interest in but that had nothing for kids. I don't recall ever even being in a playpark with her let alone a soft play or anything. Emotions weren't really recognised in our house, if I was upset or worried i would get affection but it was always very much get on with it, chin up, move on, things could be worse. I think this has led me to be such a bottle-upper-er (lol for lack of a better word!) as an adult.

Throughout school i felt the pressure to be perfect and not let her down. I was academic and did well but this backfired as a teen- I was bullied for being a swat and struggled with this for some time before moving schools. My mental health deteriorated with a spell of anorexia thrown into the mix too. I recall when the penny dropped for my parents about my eating disorder and being yelled at for doing this to myself and how silly I was. Again with the 'how could you do this to us, we've brought you up so well'. That could be a whole other thread though.

Nowadays I really enjoy spending time with my dad, we're of a similar nature and outlook. Sometimes I'll WhatsApp him, about anything random or often I turn to him for advice. This inevitably leads to a WhatsApp from my mum shortly afterwards, offering her advice or making it known she knows about our conversation. I can't seem to have that connection with my dad without her being involved. Sometimes I'll get texts from his number but I'm certain they're actually from her.

Or after I've had a million missed calls in a day (I'm either busy with my children/work/life or just choosing to ignore her drama), she'll then call from his number or sometimes get him to call and then pass over the phone. At which point I get 'I was so worried' 'I thought something had happened to you'. Eurgh it's so tiring.

Can I ask, is there a specific type of counsellor to look for or how does it work?
I think I'd really benefit but it seems quite scary admitting that something is wrong, does that make sense?! I've always felt that it doesnt justify speaking to someone as I know other people have it a million times worse.
Hugs back xx

@StreetwiseHercules I just wanted to say that so much of your post has resonated with me- 'I am your mother', keeping her sweet and the fact she calls your son HER boy. I also felt more like a possession
of hers rather than an independent person and to some extent still do, especially when I'm in her company (crazy I know! I'm a rational, sensible adult with a family of my own, how can that be?!).

I don't think you were being disceptive in pretending to back down, I think you did what you needed to protect yours and your family's feelings. You sound very strong for being able to sever connections.
@failinghard I've also done a fair bit of reading on responsive, gentle parenting methods as I was quite worried I would inadvertently pass these traits on to my kids. Is that something you worried about also? I would HATE for any of her behaviours to manifest in my parenting, I just couldn't bare it. I am confident that I'm taking a different approach and so grateful she isn't any closer to inflict her behaviour on them xx

@Westernesse I found a counsellor through my employee assistance scheme. Have a look and see if your HR has a scheme too. I phoned the number, got through to a call centre and was effectively triaged to see if I was a danger to myself, needed specific therapy or if counselling was an option. They matched me with a localish counsellor, we spoke on the phone and I got the feeling I could talk to them and was able to access 6 sessions with them.

It genuinely changed my life.

My DH has been able to access therapy via NHS services, but he was in the midst of what he says was a bad time and I think was an actual nervous breakdown. He has psychotherapy on a monthly basis. If it was so serious, I think he would still be on the waiting list rather than 8 months in.

Apologies - my reply above is to @Daff59

Also meant to add that I see so many similarities with your story. Even now I can't assume texts or messages from my dads phone are actually from him. The majority of the time they are from my mum but she has decided that I don't respond when she sends them from her phone. Which isn't true, I do reply to her on her phone!

Daff59 yours sounds scarily like mine, I also had an eating disorder as a teenager but managed to stop on my own, neither parent noticed or said anything, school did. It’s sad when teachers are more interested in you then your own parents . Growing up I had my room searched on a regular basis and got the silent treatment regularly (for things like going to a friends house or doing well at school!). I ended up moving out at 19 and dropping out of university to do so (- as had stayed at home and this was the days before loans). She was please I dropped out and my fathers response when I had the only conversation with him about it was “well you know what your mother is like”. I also get emails and texts from her via him, I think she checks all his communication, as I can tell when it is her or him speaking. the strange thing is it has never occurred to them there is anything wrong with their behaviour and they don’t seem to have noticed we have no real relationship x

Yes the narcissist has free will. However, narcissists do not have any empathy. Their lack of empathy here cannot be at all understated.

The Narcissist has a moral compass that is broken. In other words their moral compass can point them in the direction they should go but without a conscience they go in the direction that is the most gain for them (my late FIL is one such person). Remember they don't have any empathy or sympathy for another human so to run you over is what they do. They don't feel your suffering they don't feel your pain and they do not care either.

You'll never see a narcissist be filled with joy, peace or calmness and you will never see a narcissist truly cry. You may see crocodile tears but you'll never see them cry real tears.

Daff59

re your earlier comment on "gifts" from your mother:

"She showers us in gifts but things that she likes/designer things I'd never buy/use. I appreciate the thought and know its kind but I'd much rather useful things as it seems such a waste".

I am sorry to tell you your mother is indeed not being kind here.

Narcissists are truly crap gift givers. Narcissists give gifts with an eye to maintaining a relationship with the giver and to maintaining control in that relationship. You don't get expensive gifts from a narcissist because they think you are awesome; you get valuable gifts because they want you to continue to think that they are awesome.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I second the narcs and gift giving. It could also be like my father who only gives literally pure tat - like bric a brac stuff maybe a small child would find fascinating - or like my mum who expects you to tell her what to buy you 🙄 I am done with being thoughtful in that respect 🫡 (my dad sent some bits for my daughter 3 months after she was born - mostly junk / stuff off a market stall - no joke in a black bin bag... he isn't short of money either)

@Shortbread49 @Daff59 also had an eating disorder for around 10 years from teens to mid twenties. My dad discovered this one day and was less than sympathetic ('have you just puked up that meal I cooked for you', then never mentioned it again, got over it by myself... funnily enough when they stopped being so integral to my life. @Shortbread49 totally hear you on lack of privacy, they used to regularly go through my bag, and find stuff they did not like (eg notes back and forth from my friends) and go apeshit at me. I used to write poetry a lot (mainly cause I was so bloody miserable and had no outlet via them) and no doubt they found that but never mentioned it... funny that. My parents divorced when I was 20, my mum ran off with a guy she was engaged to when she was younger. She proceeded to tell me how he was impotent (didn't even know what that meant at the time) yuck 🤢 my Dad had a bit of a breakdown (he deserved to be left he was horrible to her, always putting her down and was just a crap husband) and then proceeded to write me weird bordering on abusive letters to me whilst I was at uni. Needless to say I failed uni.... but looking back I had fairly severe ptsd or bpd. Eating disorder, got in debt, promiscuous, drug taking, shop lifting, suicide attempts, just totally wild and desperate to find some bloody joy after 17 years of imprisonment, chores, invasion of privacy, isolation, boredom and zero respect. They paid for me to uni and I got nothing to show for it but I am alive, tbh I needed 3 years of just doing not much and exploring who I was.
Gosh I have gone on a tangent here haven't I!

Omg yes @Daff59 National Trust visits, I am guessing it's why this thread is called what it's called. So utterly boring for a child. Garden centres also. Unless they have a soft play I am not interested in taking my child there. We do some stuff that was good like we went to a parrot park once 🦜 a lot of trekking around boring museums about war urgh. The 1980s was so grim for me.

And yes to gentle parenting - by knowing what you know and creating a child led environment you are already doing the emotional work. A child has big big feelings, so it's just being able to hold space for them, recognise, validate, help them identify them. My mum thought it was hilarious that she just used to walk away from me if I had a tantrum, or chuck me outside the front door. I remember being really scared. Not how I will be dealing with tantrums. We won't get it right every time and it's a journey to learn good parenting but what a beautiful excuse to do better!

@Westernesse I know exactly where you are in terms of diagnosing them - I flit between are they on the spectrum? Are they victims themselves (both had shitty childhoods)? Are they abusers? Do they have personality disorders? Are they just complete arseholes? One or all of those things may be true. But I think it's helpful to use the term 'emotionally immature' - how and why is irrelevant - they stopped maturing at a certain point... they never caught themselves and thought 'oh gosh my behaviour to my child does not feel good I need to sort this out'

For me that moment came when I got a puppy a few years ago, I didn't like who I became when I was frustrated with her. Training a puppy is hard! I didn't have the emotional skills. But therapy helped so much and quickly we made break through that explained a lot of my behaviour. And I actually started to really enjoy the journey with my wonderful doggy ❤️

Ps I must change my user name! @AttilaTheMeerkat

I'm so glad this thread exists.

I'm currently getting counselling on the NHS, mainly for decades of family abuse related stuff that has needed dealing with for a very long time and finally came to a head last year. I'm now NC or LC with family members and pretty isolated with ongoing scapegoating from afar etc. After a few months of bitter-sweet relief after distancing myself I then fell down some kind of horrendous rabbit hole of reflection and rumination and it's been really quite shit seeing it from the outside looking in. I finally self-referred via the NHS IAPT system and managed to get in-person counselling on the NHS just it was starting up again after Covid. While I'm very grateful for the fact the NHS embraces talking therapies and I've been able to access it relatively easily, my 12 sessions of counselling will be coming to an end in a few weeks and I feel like it's barely touched the sides.

My therapist is very nice but it's mainly just me recounting more and more incidents (some pretty awful) and not much more. They are a final year trainee (Gestalt) and and while they're engaged in terms of listening it doesn't then seem to really go anywhere. I'm not sure if it's me, the therapist, the Gestalt element (which manifests as my therapist telling me how they feel about what I've just told them and then asking me how I feel about how they feel which just makes me feel apologetic) I'm now wondering what happens when the sessions come to an end next month. My therapist will be moving on anyway at that point and I don't know what if anything the NHS will offer in terms of ongoing counselling.

I'm not always great at asking for things for myself (hence the self-referral in the first place!) and I'm wondering if anyone here has had ongoing rather than time-limited sessions on the NHS and whether it came as a suggestion from the NHS or it was something you had to push for. Or if there's something else specifically I should be pushing for. The NHS website for my area is vague on the subject. I can't afford private therapy, even subsidised if available, at the moment. I literally feel like I got more out of the hour long assessment phone call after I self referred than the sessions themselves.

Thank you in advance for any advice.

@Foggydog that sounds tough, could you go straight to your GP and request someone different or a different form of therapy perhaps?

@chatterbug22 thanks for replying and yes it has been a bit tough, although better than nothing. I did originally speak to my GP about needing some help (pre-Covid and before everything really blew up with my family) and they pointed me in the direction of IAPT and left it up to me to decide what to do. To be honest I've never seen the same GP twice in the last 10 years, it's a very overloaded system where I am. However self-referrals and GP referrals are all filtered through to the same NHS department so I'll be where I am now however I approach it.

@Foggydog gosh it is all so tough the way the systems are structured, it’s impossible to get through to them the way it’s set up. I understand as it’s a similar carry on where I am. As an alternative in the interim have you tried listening to podcasts and YouTube videos? There are some really good therapists on there, it’s not direct advice for an individual situation but it is a different perspective

I need to know if I’m being unreasonable here.

I have more frequently in touch with my DSis than is comfortable for me since she found out she was pregnant, because I feel excited for her and didn’t want her to feel neglected. I couldn’t help myself and wanted to treat her and the baby even though she is still early days and put together a little gift bag with a couple of token things for baby and some pamper things for her. I would say I’ve text maybe 2 or 3 times a week.

I have not met up with her or shown ‘any level of interest’ in the past fortnight, according to her. I have been really busy and had enough of my own going on, only seen my parents once in that time and haven’t seen OHs family at all. I thought this was usual in busy lives. She has messaged me again declaring she does not want a virtual relationship where I never meet her, and she ‘will not expose a child to this level of toxicity’ and then said if I want a relationship with her baby I must accept them as a package, as it causes her pain that she should never have had to put up with in the first place.

I can’t comprehend it. For anyone who didn’t catch up with my earlier comments on this thread, over the past year my sister has refused to talk about anything but things to do with herself (job promotion, wedding etc) and every time anyone has brought up something different it’s been swiftly pulled back around to that. She has called me boring, ridiculed me for being too slow, treated me like I know nothing quite generally. I didn’t want to take a photo hugging her for the camera on holiday, so she pushed me over ‘as a joke’. I have been guilt tripped about not being available enough, she has pulled rank and threatened to demote me from my position at her wedding (which was a fabulous day in the event, and I retained my position). She ignores my partner as if he doesn’t exist if he is speaking generally to a few family members and whenever he greets her she is exceptionally passive aggressive, to the point where some extended family have noticed and raised an eyebrow. If I politely raise anything, she will have a huge reaction and blame it on me. She has cried to my mum that I want nothing to do with her yet the very same day blocked me on social media. Parents make excuses for it and say her mental health hasn’t been great and if I knew her better I’d know.

Honestly though, the more I sit and look over the situation I wonder if I have actually done something somewhere to warrant her behaviour towards me. Maybe I make her feel judged or insecure? Maybe I don’t make the effort and have been rubbish at supporting her through the exciting times in her life. I feel stuck because there’s the added layer of a DN now, it would break my heart to not be close to them but can I do it at the expense of my own MH?

She’s just said I have caused her pain. It baffles me after all the gaslighting unless I am being ignorant. I don’t like it as I feel she is using DN as a bargaining chip, which I very much believe is wrong. What to even do at this stage - honesty appreciated, obviously.

Name change from @failinghard

@chatterbug22 time to go NC I would say, I mean do you even like your sister? She sounds like a proper bully. Go with your instincts. Just stop responding to her or making the effort anymore. You can see her at family gatherings and be polite but don't get sucked in anymore.

Do you think she is capable of change or has she always been like this? From your message your parents said she had mental health problems, is there any trauma there or anything that could explain her behaviour? Would she consider counselling?

Hugs x

@winningeasy thank you. I just can’t believe everything she’s said, it’s so hurtful. The problem is, the less I see her the more worked up she gets and will tell everyone I want nothing to do with her / am jealous of her etc the list goes on. She really plays victim. Somebody else is always at fault. She also can’t abide any cousins of similar age and dislikes her SIL who I’ve only met twice and seems fine. She reckons she bullies her.

To me it all screams insecurity and I wish I could be there to support it but it makes me feel so rubbish, every interaction with her. I am honestly apprehensive to face her. I get that feeling you get as a kid before going to school when you’re anxious a certain group of classmates is going to be unkind. Literally stomach does somersaults and not the good sort.

I can’t overly remember you know, always like it to an extent but always had feelings of insecurity. My mum just makes excuses for her. Sister very resistant to feedback of any kind and will become very very reactive and turn it all back on me.

I feel stuck because there’s the added layer of a DN now, it would break my heart to not be close to them but can I do it at the expense of my own MH?

She has got you EXACTLY where she wants you. In a total toxic bind where she can control, threaten, emotionally blackmail and abuse you.

There are lots of others around who see, hear and experience her nonsense directly and indirectly. Know that.

She will likely try to smear and manipulate you but you need to rise above it and trust that others will see her for who she is and you for who you are. Most people won’t really give a shit either way.

You really need to emotionally withdraw and practice grey rock if NC is not an option for you right now. She is trying to destroy your MH.

Grieve now for the relationship that you WONT have with her baby when it is born because she is weaponising this baby.

Seriously at this stage pull right back so it is the status quo when this baby is born.

No need to be her punch bag - don’t worry about your parents they are happy to throw you under the bus and be the buffer.

This stress from her antics is like yanking your chain erratically with the threat of anger and volatility. You don’t have to subject yourself to this because it will erode your own relationship and self esteem.

She is trying to make you doubt yourself and be confused - it’s gas-lighting.

You got through the wedding - but that was one day that you could strategically manoeuvre around. This pregnancy and baby is a 24/7 trap - you will be her whipping boy.

Honestly pull right back - slowly - don’t explain anything to her - or look for resolution or understanding - she isn’t capable. Consider her a hyena or a scorpion. She will hurt you repeatedly - that’s what she is, that’s what she does. Protect yourself and move away emotionally and physically.

And don’t tolerate her treating your partner like shit - that’s throwing him under the bus as well. Don’t bother explaining - she knows exactly what she is doing. Just turn your back on her and her baby.

@DFOD thank you so much, and for addressing every part of my ultra long comment. I feel sad about it, I want a nice carry on with DN. You have hit the nail on the head though, it does feel like she has me where she wants me. I honestly hoped she would lose these behaviours with shifting priorities, but the fact she is weaponising already really does alarm me. Do you think she knows what she is doing?

The part that conflicts me is, in all her messages she is very eager to ‘meet up and resolve this / repair the sister relationship’ yet as long as I can remember if I calmly point out a behaviour she will have a huge reaction and put it back on me. Is it possible in your experience she could be saying she wants to meet but not really wanting that? As I say, I do have to wonder why she’s saying it.

I am going to learn about grey rock and try and implement it, can you suggest any books / videos for this? Thank you so much. I don’t know quite how I’d do that around a new baby though. Her DH is nice enough and a baby is a baby but like I say, my sister clearly isn’t changing.

She wants to meet up face to face to wield power and control over you by demanding your presence. Then she will take great pleasure and satisfaction in your submission and discomfort….she wants to read you, see your squirm, see the fear when she attacks …. on some spurious slight.

Of course she knows what’s she’s doing. It’s compulsive to her. She needs to discharge her emotional dysfunction on to you specifically. She will never change. It’s a manipulative trap - don’t fall for it.

@DFOD I just can’t see how she would turn out this way when we both had the same upbringing. I’m not perfect by a long stretch but I would never treat her like this. She is using the baby in this situation for the wrong reasons and I am a little worried, in all honesty, that she’s not in a great position MH wise. I know it’s not my worry to have but all the same.

She also used her wedding to harass you.

Yes she likely has some MH, psychological, emotional issues to resolve - but you are not the person to support her as she is projecting and discharging her issues on to you - you need to get out of her way so that she has zero ammunition to fixate on you…..then she will likely focus on another target and one day conclude that the common denominator is her.

Honestly don’t give her your time energy and headspace - she will drain and derail you. Choose positive people who you have a reciprocal kind and respectful relationship to be around.

Just fade right out of her life. Drop the rope.

Don’t worry about your parents - they need to respect your stance - be aware that you being the target likely suits them as it takes them out of the frame. Don’t waste time wondering why she is like this - even if you get an answer it doesn’t change the impact it has on you. Protect yourself. She is a controlling bully. Keep yourself out of punching distance.