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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/04/2022 00:42

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 25/08/2022 11:47

I would not bother confronting them also because you will likely come off far worse from doing such anyway. These people have NO empathy or insight so your words will have no effect.

The best thing here is to distance yourself from them entirely and live well without them in your day to day life.

OP posts:
caulescens · 25/08/2022 12:04

@Parishcouncil sorry - reading my long ramble again - it wasn't very useful at all. I think I've got too much to say on this topic but this is one small thing that has been helping me:

I've realised that get a lot of enjoyment from impromptu conversations or the odd hello/smile from acquaintances, colleagues, neighbours or strangers. Something I don't think I was completely aware of until recent reflections. I've made it a bit of a habit mission to be openly friendlier to people (not that I think I wasn't friendly but noticed that some people are much better at it without going too far the other way) and use their names where appropriate. Almost every venture outside of the house has something. Apart from it simply being the way I want to be I figure that making this more ingrained will make it easier to make more friends when I do feel ready to make bigger leaps.

I've come off social media too - I think it was the right thing 💐

caulescens · 25/08/2022 12:35

@failinghard - I don't think there is any point and I doubt that anything good would come out of it.

The closest I came to it was my step mum dragged something (just general shit-stirring - her MO) when I was visiting, to which my dad replied 'I never hit caulescens'. I wasn't having that bollocks. I replied something like 'Yes, you did. I remember [graphic details of multiple occasions including strangulation/kicking in head etc]. You did hit me and I have forgiven you'. All said matter of fact and then I said something about never mentioning it again but don't rewrite history to me and I will correct it every single time and also something about my step mums shit stirring and the fact that she just stood their and watched. It was all over pretty quickly, zero emotion - I had long checked out of this relationship and this was an obligation visit. That wasn't me confronting them though and whilst abusive at times they were very different to DH's...

DH has confronted his more classically (?) emotionally immature parents on a few occasions. Absolutely everything is denied - to an astonishing degree. Their relationship gets even worse after each time as he loses more and more respect for them - I don't think it has helped his mental health but then at least they now know that he doesn't believe their narrative so we can stop pretending to play happy families. They are always perfect and always the victims.

Fritilleries · 27/08/2022 09:56

I just spent 5 minute typing and lost the lot so here goes again. couldn't sleep again last night. Ever since returning from a holiday in which my younger sibling threw/broke something, screamed profanities and then stormed out, leaving my 4 year old sobbing in hysterics, I've been unable to stop this blasted train from running round and round my head. I don't know what to do. I feel totally at sea, so distracted that I can't think straight. I went for a walk with a pal and apologised for being too blunt or direct and she said you need to seriously reframe how you see yourself as its so negative. I was just trying to reflect on what my parents said. I feel so frustrated that whenever there is any sort of argument that historical events are dredged up and used to beat me with. I am so done with apologising. They constantly tell me that I have a rude tone, that I talk down to them and I end up feeling like a figment of their imagination. Its like, don't we all have moments where we're a bit short or snappy? They said to my OH on the phone that they'd had a lovely day yet to me they focused on two moments where I was stressed and made it seem like I had spoilt things. So then I end up doubting myself. I feel like a version of myself that I hate. I try to be myself and I'm judged for it. I don't know how to get myself out of this circular and spiralling mind funk. My mum is soon to have surgery for BC so I can't really go and discuss it with them. I did block my sibling's number. Neither of my parents have reached out except via group chat.

Spotchnot · 28/08/2022 14:47

Sorry for not coming back before now.

I had a phonecard from my parents this morning. They've asked if they can take me out for lunch- mum said she realised they take my sister out for her birthday, and just assumed that as I have my own family now (mum's words) that they forget I'm their daughter too. So they are going to take me out on Friday.

Feels odd. Not sure if they have anything to talk to me about, or if it's the realisation that they had a day out with my sister yesterday, are going on holiday with her for 3 weeks from next week, or the fact they've been out for meals and holiday regularly with her and don't really bother much with me, focus on my children instead. I know they feel guilty as my sister is single, so feel they have to take her out.

Definitely an odd feeling.

Spotchnot · 28/08/2022 14:48

Phone call, not phone card!

VioletSky2 · 29/08/2022 00:32

Hi, I'm just commenting so I can easily come back to this thread and need to finish reading it

LoveToWearADress · 29/08/2022 09:01

@Spotchnot @Fritilleries so sorry to read your updates. I think it's clear that very low contact is the way forward. I'm sorry that your partners have been drawn into this too; hopefully they can see things clearly and will be supportive.

Sorry not to post anything more detailed but didn't want to leave you unanswered.

Spotchnot · 29/08/2022 09:22

Oh @Fritilleries I could have written your post a couple of years ago.

It took me too long to realise that I am not the person I get told I am. I had therapy, some quite horrible realisations that I'd spent too long thinking I was awful but it just wasn't true.

I get told I'm rude or blunt. Normally at times when I'm very stressed or my sibling has been provoking me (we are in our 40s! It makes me feel ridiculous typing that). I now take a moment, reflect on whether I was rude or blunt, apologise and then move on. I don't let my mum in particular bring stuff up from the past any more because she only does it to hurt me and to justify why she is having a go at me.

I read something a while back that helped in other things:

You only have to climb the mountain, not carry it

I don't need to take the baggage my parents present me with.

In your shoes, the reality probably was that your parents had a nice time. They are probably also used to deciding you are blunt and rude and likely to ruin everything even before you see them. That's their perception, it doesn't need to be yours. Remember what really happened, and remember who you really are.

failinghard · 29/08/2022 10:56

Hi @Fritilleries sorry you're not feeling great, it seems to me there's an emotional break through coming your way eg your true self and your real emotions (anger, frustration, sadness) is just done with being hidden and is desperately trying to come out and be seen, don't fight it. Let it flow and come to the surface is all I can suggest.
You have to find a way to see your parents for who they really are: emotionally immature beings who cannot relate to you on an emotional level. So when you deal with them move to a thinking state not a feeling one. Observe them and all their imperfections. Don't try to relate to them, it's not possible. In terms of the dredging up the past - you have to observe they are doing it then change the subject 'sorry, I don't want to discuss that, can we talk about something positive/fun/interesting, xyz, how's your new job going etc'
Also be you, unashamedly, don't apologise or mask anything anymore. Be proud of who you are.
Above all move to low contact, stop telling them about the important stuff. We tell ourselves 'healing fantasises' where stuff we do fixes them. It will never ever happen. For me, I was sure that if I married a good, successful man and had a baby then my Dad would be a, well, a Dad to me... quite the opposite. And for my Mum, I couldn't wait to see her in the grandma role, but I was bitterly disappointed and tbh it's very triggering as it shows how bad she prob was as a mother.

I think prob this stuff also applies to you too @Spotchnot - go to the lunch but just observe them, don't try to get them to relate to you or understand you. They can't and they won't. They are not prepared to do the emotional work and tbh it prob scares them to death. I'd imagine your sister is more enmeshed with them, perhaps she is less emotional and they are all comfortable with that. You have your own family now, and a chance to do things differently, try low contact... totally grey stone them, keep it focused on them and they'll prob have a great time at your lunch, unfortunately see it for it is and what it always will be, a chore. And don't feel guilty for it.

Both of you - tap into what your inner self is telling you about the relationship, if it's not enjoyable to hang out with them then simply do not, or minimise. If your whole being is saying 'I don't like them / I don't enjoy their company' then follow those urges without shame. I doubt they have many friends these people, so go figure!

Daff59 · 29/08/2022 13:12

Hi all, hope its OK to join. I've read so many of these posts with interest and just wanted to offload too..
I'd always had a bit of a love/hate relationship with my mum and its only recently I've started to recognise alot of her behaviour as being toxic. Previously with every disagreement or fallout I'd always blamed myself. Sometimes I don't know if I'm being too harsh on her, so others perspective would be nice.
Some examples are-

  1. Belittling me in front of people, correcting the way I speak or the phrases I use, 'pretend' telling me off. On the flip side of this she can also really big me up too, to the point where its out of proportion and embarrassing. I'm 38.
  2. Causing arguments over trivial things and as I've recently noticed, at my special events like Christmas at my house, my wedding, the night before I took a gap year. Christmas-everyone was too stuffed to eat her pie so politely declined...started shouting saying how selfish we all are for not eating it after shes made it'. This created a horrible atmosphere, no one spoke the rest of the night. Next day she acted like nothing happened. Night before my wedding- caused a scene in front of my husbands family and stormed off. Ruined my night by being so cross about it all. Travel-was told 'after all I've done for you, put you through uni' etc.
  3. Guilt trips about being an old child 'you're our only one' 'I can't help it if I want to speak to you'.
  4. She will NEVER say sorry. I'm always made to feel its my fault and end up apologising.
  5. Whenever she has helped me, no matter how small, it at some point gets chucked back in my face..'afterall I've done for you'. Similarly if I achieve something she will take credit by saying 'that's because of all the things we did together/I taught you/how you were brought up'
  6. Now I have my own children she talks to other people as though she's really involved and busy with them all the time. She isn't, she lives 4 hours away and has only babysat twice in 4 years, both of which I asked her to. Its like she wants to portray this image of being a perfect nana.
  7. She needs praise for everything she does and if she doesn't get it, she'll be offended or ask leading questions to get the praise she needs
  8. Takes offense very easily and takes things completely out of context. Can't have banter with her or ever dare to take the mick out of her as you'll upset her feelings. Even though she frequently does it to others.
  9. She expects perfection. She has a perfect house, is immacutely dressed but also expects everyone else to be the same and judges them if not. She doesn't work and doesn't understand that I don't have the time to clean none stop, iron etc. Time I'd much rather spend with my kids anyway!
10. She showers us in gifts but things that she likes/designer things I'd never buy/use. I appreciate the thought and know its kind but I'd much rather useful things as it seems such a waste. The 2 occasions my kids stayed with her for the weekend they came back dressed how she would like them to look (in different clothes to the ones I'd packed) 11. She has always forced the idea that we are best friends and says it to anyone who'll listen. As a child I thought that's just how mums were but as an adult don't feel the same way, she's jealous when I speak positively about my actual best friends and says things like 'oh you'd do that for her but wouldn't for me'. Which actually just pushes me further away!

In some ways I do feel bad, her days basically consist of rattling around her house, cleaning all day every day. She has no friends and is estranged from alot of her family. But also I think if that was me I'd put myself out there, find a club to join, do activities to find friendship and meet people. She absolutely could do that but chooses not to.
Over the years I've stopped giving her as much of me, keep conversations light and mostly about the kids. Then it doesn't give her any fuel to judge or belittle me. I've no idea if that's the right thing to do and I feel so down about it sometimes! I do crave that lovely relationship I see my friends having their mums but have come to realise this would come at a negative cost for my emotional wellbeing.
So anyway, not sure why I'm posting, I guess to offload and see if anyone else has experienced similar?

MonkeyfromManchester · 29/08/2022 14:30

@Fritilleries that is SO grim. Why do they feel entitled to behave this way? Just awful. I am so sorry.
@Spotchnot it must be awful to see such favouritIsm. I take it that you're the scapegoat?

Totally agree with @failinghard if you get to a point of low contact or detachment, it's so much better for your head. I found with The Hag (toxic MIL) that writing a list of what I wouldn't take from her before I saw helped immeasurably. I then blanked the bullshit and didn't engage with the patterns. This was to the end of seeing her. Before a HORRIBLE meal with her three weeks ago when her DIL & sons were down, I hadn’t seen her since xmas 2021.
. It's been great. I know I'm lucky to have got to this point

MonkeyfromManchester · 29/08/2022 14:51

@Daff59 your mum is pretty much a carbon copy of my MIL aka The Hag. Total narc.

You are expected to not stray from what's expected of you, the dramatic incidents are both born of jealousy or attention seeking. The boasting about your achievements is because she sees you as an extension of her. The children get showered with gifts because this feeds her ego. Apologises are part of the game. They're not genuine. Narcs never take responsibility.

The Hag doesn't see her grandsons or ring them, but throws £££ - big cash gifts for an ego trip. The designer stuff is the same.

Read up on narcissism, you'll find most of your mum’s behaviour ticks the boxes.

Good on you for stepping away. And do not feel guilty. It is NOT your fault. Your mum rattling around her home is NOT your responsibility. This pushing away of people & then feeling sorry for themselves & trying to guilt trip “oh, I'm so lonely” is designed to make you feel bad. This is NOT your fault, either.

Again, this is what The Hag does. We've stopped feeling guilty. We used to do lunches out or invite her here. That has stopped because she's toxic, picks fights or moans doing the martyr act. Usually, all three at once. I do NOT indulge it anymore, nor does Mr Monkey. He completely shares my opinions.

Had a great weekend, which didn't involve a toxic lunch and dreading it for days. No more. Hopefully, I won't see her til Xmas. Xmas will involve very cheap lunch out and her not stepping foot in our house EVER again.

And they get more entitled with age and the behaviour worsens. Make sure when she's older that you sort out a care package. Do not move closer. Hag lives 10 mins from here. She very deliberately did this - before my time - to have Mr Monkey live nearer and persuaded him not to move across the city. It's all about her, it's always all about them.

There is GREAT support here.

DavesSpareDeckChair · 29/08/2022 18:43

Just wanted to send best wishes to you all. There is so much that I recognise here. Is it ok if I join in? There is so much I want to say and I dont know where to start!

Daff59 · 29/08/2022 18:50

@MonkeyfromManchester reading your message has brought me so much comfort, thankyou! It's crazy for all these years I think I've been in denial about her behaviour or made excuses just putting it down to her personality or whatever. Up until very recently I didn't even speak to dh about it as I felt so guilty talking badly of her. He can now see these aspects of her too but it's taken a long time, we've been together 12 years and only recently she has let some of these things show to him too. I guess just another side of portraying the 'perfect image'.
What really hit home was you saying about her being at home not being my responsibility, it seems so obvious now you say it but I've always had such a strong guilt about it. Think I need to learn to let that go.
Good on you for setting such firm boundries with The Hag, can I ask how you made her aware of this without ww3 erupting?
It's something I'd love to do but I find myself opting for the easier, quieter life by not feeding her ego/agreeing with her but just tending to stay very neutral when we're in contact and not really reacting to her behaviour.
Interesting about the age thing too, I definitely think she's worsened over time. It really has become her way or no way.

MonkeyfromManchester · 29/08/2022 19:10

@Daff59 I'm so glad that helped. Living in a family like this makes you doubt your feelings as we’re blackmailed into denial - it must be ME thinking this - with shed loads of guilt. It’s Stockholm Syndrome. I'm glad you're talking to DH, it makes all the difference to share your feelings.

Neutral is the best place to be and stonewalling the nonsense. And you can't have a conversation about it with them as they don't listen to reason or anyone else. No responsibility. They blame the victim.

We had the Hag (85) living here for 10 weeks (Covid, flat renovation, broken arm) at different times over 2020 and 2021. It was AWFUL. She'd abused my partner Mr Monkey physically and emotionally all through his childhood and teen years. Really badly. She's a vile mother. I always believed MM, but turned a blind eye for peace (which I regret, but hey ho) before she stayed here.

When she was here she soon manifested the spite and bile. Screaming etc. Hag wanted to live here. 🥹 No way. I can't begin to put into words just how horrible she is/was. OFF THE SCALE. We finally banished her in Spring 2021 after a three week period with a broken arm. I sorted out social workers and carers.

She is hugely resentful of this and the lovely life we have. She behaved dreadfully at Xmas 2021 - at my mum’s !!! - and that was it for me. NC from then onwards.

I never had any conversation with her - you can’t reason with her AT ALL - so we withdrew. It would be exhausting if we even tried. Not worth the pain.

MM does the minimum - medical appointments. She has Slave Son - 62 year old idiot beaten into submission, quasi husband - for everything else.

I’m NC, MM is LC. We are much happier, but she isn’t, of course. We both had therapy. MM is well on the road to recovery from his hideous childhood.

my other tip is don’t compare your childhood with people’s and think ‘oh, their’s was worse’. Your truth is your truth. The truth isn’t your mother’s either.

keep talking here. Ladies here supported me - and by proxy MM - to this point. I’m happy again, and he is for pretty much the first time in his life.

MonkeyfromManchester · 29/08/2022 19:11

@DavesSpareDeckChair you have found your tribe, it's mega supportive here. Welcome.

failinghard · 29/08/2022 20:13

@Daff59 your mum sounds horrendous, sorry! Defo lots of narcissistic traits there. Reminds me of my own Mum, who made so many little digs and put downs at my wedding recently, and all she wanted to talk about was stuff she'd be cooking recently lol 🙄

It's really hard to let go of the relationship you wish you had whilst accepting the reality that your Mum is emotionally immature and just isn't capable of relating to you. There is nothing you can do to change her. So it's all about protecting yourself from her toxicity. Move into a thinking mode rather than feeling. Use meetings with her as a chance to observe with curiosity, safe in the knowledge that you see through it all. Sounds like you are on the right track.

It's bloody great news that she is 4 hours away. I suggest you do not allow her to baby sit your kids anymore unless there's really no other option. You do not want to feel you owe her anything.

You also need to set some boundaries eg changing their clothes. For gifts maybe a cap on budget and a list of things you or your kids would like.

You could 'grey stone' her especially when talking about your girlfriends. Don't tell her anything anymore. Any big plans, don't mention it. If she takes the conversation down a negative path, make it clear you're not up for talking about that and change the subject. Neutral and firm.

I know it's hard but moving to lower contact with her will be better for you and your family.

I think one important thing is you being unapologetic about who you eg you'd rather be mothering than cleaning the house, I think that point is important and if she nags at you about that, calmly explain what you're prioritising right now and why.

I did chuckle about her getting mad about people not eating her pie after a full Xmas dinner 😜 Christmas is just pure stress when you've got a narc in the midst, luckily my mum 'doesn't like Christmas' so I haven't spent it with her or any of my family for about 20 years.

Have you ever spoken to a counsellor? I would definitely recommend you find someone to talk to about all of this and help you navigate these realisations.

How was she when you were growing up? Is your father still around?

Hugs xx

failinghard · 29/08/2022 20:14

@VioletSky2 @DavesSpareDeckChair welcome! You're in the right place x

StreetwiseHercules · 29/08/2022 21:02

**This thread has been very cathartic. Thanks to all for sharing their stories and my heart goes out to you all.

I’m the eldest of 3 boys. Growing up seemed mostly ok at the time, but looking back it was punctuated with dreadful episodes where there was a brooding sense of anger and hostility in the house.

My father used to refer to my mother as “The Dark at the Top of the Stairs” when she would go into her moods and sulk for days on end.

It could have been for any manner of things. Her sister maybe looked at her the wrong way or made a comment that she didn’t like. She had been shopping that day and hadn’t seen anything she liked. I had exhibited some independent thought and will perhaps, as I often did.

I remember a holiday in particular when my Dad lost his shit with her in the car. She could be so mean. He drove us all into a field and got out and walked away. Much distress but not from her. He came back of course.

All my life I was reminded that “I AM YOUR MOTHER”. I felt a need to please her or at least keep her sweet to avoid moods.

She and my dad were mostly estranged from his family. This was seemingly fine. I think they probably WERE dysfunctional and idiotic.

I remember her flying into a rage when I was about 14 at the idea I might have a girlfriend. Her rages were always just cruel speech, veiled threats etc.

Into adulthood I was still living at home aged 26. I had briefly moved into a flat for 6 months to look after it for someone and this caused absolute outrage. But it gave me a taste for freedom.

So I decided to change my life. I began to focus on my career and aspirations and met by wife to be. This caused visible discomfort, and a lot of “you’ve changed” chat. They then fell out with my brother and his wife after their first child was born. B and SIL were outraged by boundary infractions.

Wife and I got on fine with them for a few years but we always had to keep her and increasingly THEM, sweet. Even then, “what have you done for me lately” was a sword of Damocles hanging over us.

Wedding preparation required a lot of keeping Mum sweet and yet I got constant jibes including on my wedding day about how a mother’s a mother all of her life, a son’s a son until he takes a wife and how nobody cares about the mother of the groom etc. that day passed off peacefully and very well, thankfully.

My father is an enabler with some narc tendencies. I used to feel sorry for him but after he stopped working and his world and perspective became smaller, his narcissism grew. So now I had 2 to deal with.

This escalated quickly after our first son was born.

Wife had emergency C section and then some considerable PTSD and PND. We also had some other significant difficulties going on in our lives at the time.

Parents turned up ridiculously late to see our son at visiting in hospital. They apparently couldn’t find the right greeting card. Then as we tried to adjust to our new life at home we committed the heinous crime of saying no to a proposed lunch date for my wife’s birthday. We just wanted to stay at home that day and she was still really quite unwell but this did not suit.

I got busy and was no longer speaking to them in the phone every day. I called after a week and spoke to my dad to hear her shrieking in the background “he only phoned when we wants something, we’re no longer of use it seems!!!”

Stress levels rising.

To manage the situation I arranged another visit to see them and bring the baby. We had been there 2 weeks previously but I had heard through the family grapevine that she had been moaning about not having seen HER grandson in weeks.

We went only to find they had taken themselves out for the day. Mind games. I was mortified in front of my wife.

Then I started to get real heat for not having taken baby to see my grandmother yet. So I arranged that but on the way we bumped into my parents at a coffee shop and mother managed to wangle coming with us.

The visit became very tense with my mother constantly referring to our son as HER boy and criticising her hat we had dressed him in blah blah blah.

Very tense car ride home. My wife was furious but to keep some peace and for my sake sent an apology text which was received with no grace whatsoever.

Over the next few months we hardly saw them until a family wedding where my mother behaved appallingly and made a huge scene, shrieking at me in front of everyone because we were leaving at 7.30pm with our baby. All day she had been just awful, face like fizz for fuck knows what. I drove away that day, crippled with stress and just dropped the rope.

A couple of months passed and I was invited for peace talks. I went and received a barrage of abuse and list of where I was failing to meet their expectations.

I walked out. A long time passed and my dad then started asking me to meet for coffee. I did this but had to listen to the same absolute drivel over and over, reminding me of when he used to phone me constantly in the middle of the working day to moan about completely irrelevant nonsense or go on about the Illuminati and how David Icke might have a point.

So I stopped meeting him. Over the years then I would get sporadic sad messages which I ignored but then phone calls, messages, voicemails, him phoning my work, hanging around outside my work to catch me on the way out etc.

I blocked them on everything and lost contact with the rest of my family because I can’t bare to be chastised of be sucked back in.

No contact for some time and then I got an email a few months ago saying URGENT, please call! So I steeled myself and did. It was absolutely nothing. Having unblocked him to make the call, I was then sent lots of messages including photos of dead family members etc. Just classic emotional manipulation. Eventually I stopped replying and it’s been quiet since.

The pain and stress of it all has been incredible. Yet there have been upsides including the relief of not having to deal with them.

When I think back to my childhood I can honestly remember no actual affection. I was not mistreated or abused certainly but I don’t recall cuddles at all, unless there had been a massive blowup and it was being repaired.

I felt from a young age that they did not see me as an actual person but rather a thing of theirs.

My youngest brother moved to America after being enmeshed until his mid 20s. They have since fallen out with so many people and I noted growing up that they could not maintain friendships for any length of time.

In the beginning of it all I partly blamed my wife but I have long since seen that she was legitimately saying NO WAY to the dysfunction.

I see absolutely no hope of a reconciliation. The behaviours will creep back in and my mother’s ego will never allow it. In all this time she has reached out to me once, bee early on. A nasty text message about missing my dad’s birthday.

The also pull stunts like sending me birthday cards to my work saying stuff like “thinking of you on your birthday, even though you’ve dumped us”, crap like that.

There’s so much more but I can’t think just now.

And breathe!!!!

Wildflowerbeauty · 29/08/2022 21:08

Can I just say , even tho I’ve posted in the past , in which I received some supportive messages from some of you . I would just like to say I think you are all such great women , doing a wonderful job here supporting each other , surviving such a difficult situation that none of us should be experiencing. Reading your messages has made me aware that I’m not the problem, the state of the lifetime relationship I’ve had with my mother is not my fault. Thankyou for sharing . MonkeyfromManchester I love your sense of humour , you cheer me up with your words 😊

failinghard · 30/08/2022 08:01

@StreetwiseHercules so sorry you went through all that and amazing how articulate you are about it, you know your story and that takes a lot. Your parents seem weirdly very emotional, lots of extreme reactions, I say weird as obv they did not channel these feelings into love and affection for you.

Defo seems like your mum is classic narc and Dad enabled / was a passive parent. Just as bad as each other.

Good for you for rejecting all that painful nonsense. And your wife for supporting you and asserting herself too.

Like you, family life felt ok when I was growing up, it's only in recent years that I have come to realisation that I was neglected and abused.

Do you still speak to your brothers?

Hugs x

Westernesse · 30/08/2022 09:06

failinghard · 30/08/2022 08:01

@StreetwiseHercules so sorry you went through all that and amazing how articulate you are about it, you know your story and that takes a lot. Your parents seem weirdly very emotional, lots of extreme reactions, I say weird as obv they did not channel these feelings into love and affection for you.

Defo seems like your mum is classic narc and Dad enabled / was a passive parent. Just as bad as each other.

Good for you for rejecting all that painful nonsense. And your wife for supporting you and asserting herself too.

Like you, family life felt ok when I was growing up, it's only in recent years that I have come to realisation that I was neglected and abused.

Do you still speak to your brothers?

Hugs x

Thank you very much for your kindness.

I’m estranged from one of my brothers, his wife was part of the toxic mix and caused a lot of trouble with other members of the extended family and really kicked my wife and I quite hard when we were down at one point.

my other brother is in America. We don’t have any beef between us but aren’t really in touch.

at one point during all this I was duped into going back into the lion’s den for a second time after the first peace talks broke down.

This was after I had been meeting my father for coffee and he invited me down on the Sunday.

I agreed but I said that if it was going to be like the previous encounter then that would be that. He promised it would not be.

It was worse. My mother was in a simmering cold rage throughout and exploded with all the “after all we’ve done for you”, “who do you think you are “ and “you would be NOTHING without us”.

This was because I calmly explained my objection to her mindset that my wife and I should be spending our weekends going round visiting my aunts and uncles (her brothers and sisters).

I asked her if that’s what she did when she was newly married with a young family.

As she shrieked, I started raising my voice back. My dad then started shouting, thinking he could intimidate me. I’m not physically scared of him, though I reckon he is fairly strong. I felt another kind of fear though, because I was alone with them in their house and this escalation was occurring.

I then did something quite deceptive but in self defence. I tactically pretended to back down. I delivered some platitudes and made some half hearted agreements to work on things. Then I got the hell out of there and I resisted all forms of communication, which angered them immensely.

I feel like I have them a scrap of moral high ground with that, but in the moment I didn’t know what else to do.

I had a few sessions of counselling earlier this year and it has helped immensely. Even just the validation aspect. It no longer has a grip of my emotions as it used to.

I feel more of a cold anger towards them now. My kids are 9 and 5 and this has been going on for over 8 and a half years. I feel that I should have been whole as a person during that important time and their fucking toxic bullshit robbed me of that for a large part of it.

failinghard · 30/08/2022 09:45

@Westernesse I feel like the boomer generation is obsessed with family loyalty and doing what you're supposed to / expected to do. Parenting wasn't child led by norm, it was more my way or the high way. Parents acting like they own you rather than wanting to know you. Add poverty into the mix and it's such a toxic combo.

All we can do is do our best not pass all this trauma on. A lot of my realisations have come from parenting myself, and reading around what good responsive respectful parenting looks like. Having experiences with my child have definitely led to lots of flash backs for me. But I do think I am doing a good job, whilst trying to heal myself.

Whilst turning my attention onto my parents behaviour, I have also done the same with my own. I can be negative, in the past when I was younger I have been a bully myself, I can be a bit toxic with my bestie too, I do have to check myself. All we can is trying to love ourselves, we are still that child who didn't get love, through parenting we can also learn to parent ourselves. It can also be hugely cathartic I think. I take nothing for granted and find so much purpose in mothering. Your babies are still young and you have so much more time with them, keep up the counselling, I am sure you are a great Dad! Remember you have wayyyy more self awareness than your parents and prob most parents. Personal knowledge is power.

Btw I don't think there is anything deceptive in what you did. You prob were doing exactly what you did as child to placate them, essentially parenting the parents. You can't reason with these people. You don't have to be strong. You don't have to make a point. You don't have to outwit them. Taking the easiest route is sensible. You did the right thing. Never let them back in!

Hugs x

Westernesse · 30/08/2022 09:49

Meant to say as well, I name changed for this on the laptop but posted from my phone so StreetwiseHercules/Westernesse is me, the same poster. Thank you so much. I don’t think I ever will let them back in, especially now that I am so much more at peace with it. I didn’t think I would ever get to this point so would not risk rolling back.

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