April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

@MonkeyfromManchester I am sorry that she got under your skin.

I hope that you can find the emotional resilience to focus on the presence of the DN and SIL today and nurture those relationships and memories for you all.

Remember that you are raw and hurt by her historic behaviour, the anticipation of this weekend, her behaviour last night, compounded with a hangover and seeing her again today.

You are very emotionally vulnerable in this environment and present state. Know that you need to do everything to detach and distance yourself so that you are not triggered. Your dignity is more important that reacting to any goads from her. The others are all equally exposed to her antics so you don’t have to shoulder it.

Eyes on the prize - have an uneventful calm dinner with DN and SIL so that you can maintain these rewarding relationships long term. Be strategic. Good luck.

Hi I was just wondering if I can ask for more advice sorry

I know my mother will be telling all and sundry how awful I am, for not supporting her financially
And that she'll believe her narrative

I took a picture of my bruised and scarred breast after 3 months of treatment and I thought I should send it to her just so she knows I have my own shit going on

This year I had an allergic reaction that required me calling 999, gynae problems needing another surgery, dd had a termination, and I've had 3 breast surgeries

I don't know what id hope to achieve by doing this other than make her feel like shit.
As she likes to drag me through the dirt.

Any thoughts?

No, please do not do this. It won’t achieve the desired aim because she does not care about anyone other than herself. Maintain radio silence.

Your best revenge here is to live as well as you are able to.

Saw DM last week and it is still upsets me. She has lung cancer so trying to spend a bit more time with her, but came away feeling like I want to spend less time with her which is the reverse of what she wants. I spent my whole visit listening to the imtimidate details of why my DF and her divorced over 40 years ago. I heard things that have obviously been kept from me in all these years, his porn habits, him hitting her. She told me that she thought she had miscarriaged due to DF pushing her down the stairs before I was born. Apparently he tied my bedroom door shut so DM couldn't comfort me when I was crying. More of those type of stories and I came away in tears, not sure if she is telling me this to get it off her chest as she thinks she will be passed away soon.

@Fritilleries we can safely say it’s NOT you, it’s them. Throwing things isn’t acceptable. A wise person on here pointed out that much of the toxic behaviour families throw around would never be tolerated in a friend or partner. It’s like we’re brainwashed by the toxics to accept their shit as “normal”. Keep talking here and you will get a lot of support. Take care xxx

@TomAllenWife There is nothing you can do about your mother’s behaviour or her modus operandi. The only thing you can do is to emotionally detach from her. Once you can do this, you will find that you won’t really care what she says.

Don’t bother trying to make her feel like shit. That’s just giving her more ammunition and perpetuating the toxic circle. Don’t engage with her at all. Erase her from your life and move on.

@DFOD
thank you! Wise words.

Sunday - although the Hag was endured for two and a half hours over lunch - was miles better. Brother, his wife and daughters, my mum, sister in law and nephews joined us later in our garden. Hag and Slave Son not invited. Lovely evening with drinks and laughter. Love the way my gorgeous SIL feels part of my family. She hadn’t met my brother and his family before. Complete love match between nieces and my exceptionally beautiful SIS. Sweet and they sang happy birthday to her in Dutch. Lovely.

Earlier in the day, we did have the histrionic Hag “not sure I’ll see you again” bullshit delivered to one of the nephews outside the pub where we’d had lunch within my earshot (deliberately within my ear shot). The sympathy “winner” was delivered to the 20 year old nephew with learning difficulties so (hopefully) he didn’t get the designed impact. Pretty sure that’s waaaay inappropriate to any grandchild. Just keep your bullshit to yourself. The other nephew (18) who saw all the looks exchanged on Saturday night and heard all the spleen kept well clear. The news of her imminent departure didn’t elicit any response from me. Just BRING IT THE FUCK ON.

Had a very good conversation with my SIL who had no idea about the violence in the childhoods of her horrible ex-husband, Slave Son and Mr Monkey. To her, it explained how violence was normalised in the Hag’s family and that her ex husband (Golden Boy) thought things like pushing your six months pregnant wife down the stairs was OK. I’m so glad that she has found happiness with a lovely new partner and is such an incredible woman and mother.

SIL is from a different culture with different expectations of families and she completely understood our position on not taking the Hag into our house as she deteriorates. I told her there was no expectation to take on anything. TOTALLY on the same page.

“Where is her dignity?” was the VERY wise words from SIL. That’s exactly it.

Slave Son has a dim view of me as we stood out in the street after Sunday lunch waiting for taxis to take people back to lair and slum and happy home respectively he didn’t say a word. I used to need to fill the silence, which was part of me trying to fix things and I now realise you can’t fix FUCKED UP.

Hopefully, it will be the last time ever that I see The Hag.

MonkeyFromManchester, I have been following your posts; you might remember my introducing you to the expression "extinction burst", more commonly used with reference to tantrums in youngsters. I believe this is what you have seen playing out. If things are to the tyrant's liking, all is well. If the status quo is threatened, more extreme action is needed to restore said status quo. If this tactic is effective, it may well become the new starting point. The difference is that a recalcitrant toddler is not always set in their ways, and although the struggle may be fierce, there is the possibility of change.
I do not have the slightest shred of sympathy from the Hag, but can you imagine the waves of panic swirling round her hate-addled brain? Her tactics have been tried and tested over (quite literally) decades, and they have stopped working! I admire MM so much for his bravery in accepting therapy, and the tremendous strides he has made. Fear is probably making her more vicious, and her declining mental facilities are making it harder to maintain her facade, much as your previous mention that she would probably still be physically abusive if she had the strength. Interesting that both styles of Hag behaviour were seen in rapid succession in such a short space of time; the repertoire of tactics is becoming dangerously limited.

First ever gold star to me?
8 days ago I was told some abhorrent things from my ‘father’ while my ‘mum’ simply supported him (despite having previously apologised for his behaviour when she was on her own and could speak freely)

Email arrived today (from her) asking if they are still having my child tomorrow. For the first time ever, I replied “No” and just hit the send button. No small-talk, no news.

I felt I had to reply. She is his flying monkey, that much is clear - there was no emotion.

I would have felt worse for not replying. Grey rock for now when I absolutely need to speak to her only is the way forward. For now, minute by minute is all I can do. Got an hours sleep last night. Struggling mentally.

Almost 50 years of abuse (physical and emotional) narcissistic triangulation with my brother. I have to survive.

@Parishcouncil you are AMAZING. That push back takes incredible fortitude and you are refusing to let your child be part of the toxicity. There's such a danger of children of abused children becoming part of the game - either as Scapegoat grandchildren or Golden ones. The abusers will just continue the same old shit.

I don't know whether you've heard of the Apps Calm or Headspace. Helped my mental health immeasurably. They're paid apps - I bit the bullet - but they do have free features. They are really good for sleep. I understand how much sleep is important to well-being and I know a LOT (!) about sleep hygiene.

@twoshedsjackson I do! It was the best information ever to understand the tantrums! Thank you. This is exactly how things play out. She has various tactics. The rage, the poor old lady shit and the victimised teenager. On Saturday night when MM pulled her up about her behaviour - thankfully, SIL, the boys and I hadn't arrived at the restaurant - she put her head down like a sulky teen who was “enduring” terrible behaviour from her “mean” parents. It doesn't wash with MM now.

This is what she pulls with MM - that and screaming - Slave Son just gets screaming. All evening it was: you've just spilt soup on the table cloth, on your shirt etc etc to Slave Son. WTAF. HE IS DISABLED WITH MS. Horrible. SIL was horrified. In some ways I'm used to it. He certainly is and rarely fights back. SIL: She’s got no sensitivity to his disability. Then Hag starts raging about how much he drank: three pints.

I can't imagine what's going on in her head. I imagine it's a litany of woes where everyone is to blame and she is blameless.

Yes, the repertoire is becoming limited, she can't lash out physically, she can’t send MM to Coventry as she needs him too much so it's screaming or sulking.

She's infirm, so I took her to the loo at the pub. I lingered outside in the corridor as being in close proximity makes my skin crawl.

I'm so grateful for you telling me about Extinction Rebellion. It explains everything. Thank you so much.

Having the day off, trying on the two gorgeous perfumes SIL - she works for a perfume company - gave me. And chilling out after being in fight or flight mode all yesterday!

Well done @MonkeyfromManchester for coming through that long weekend with all of the uncertainty, volatility, anticipation and anxiety. You war-gamed it and won. It sounds like you had a great time with your own family and SIL and DN. A huge achievement - remember that you have nurtured those relationships and built good memories despite the nonsense antics of your MIL. I am sure it was emotionally exhausting and draining. Take time for gently restoring - well earned.

@twoshedsjackson THANK YOU! I won the war game. Xxx

I freelance so took the day off and I'm having a nap. It was exhausting, especially Saturday night.

Watching eldest DN with learning disabilities paying attention to her turned my stomach. She lapped it up. Other nephew ignored her.

Funny how toxic brother in law ‘wanted’ the eldest boy in the divorce and how Hag dotes on him (but not enough to pay him proper attention) He's malleable. Toxic BIL was hardly ever there during the boys’ childhoods, insisted on nannies when they were overseas (status thing) overruling what SIL wanted, never went on family holidays, and recently arranged to meet up with eldest nephew AND DIDN'T TURN UP. UTTER TWAT!!!

SIL has just phoned as she's mulling over the violent childhood as BIL never mentioned it. Obvs he's damaged - doesn't excuse the abuse AT ALL - but he has deep shame over his impoverished and shit childhood. Hag specialises in shame.

All his life he's been into status e.g. The beautiful trophy child bride wife (she soon grew up and wasn't as malleable as he wanted), the big house, the Porsche, showering SIL with Gucci (which he wanted back in the divorce!!!!) it was all there to fill a gaping hole. Piece of work!

Radio three and a nap time!!!

I have been reading some of the posts on here and thought I would make my own because I'm struggling a bit at the moment processing what happened to me and how I can move forward. I feel really strongly that I don't deserve to be happy and I find it hard to deal with good things happening to me. I keep waiting for everything to go wrong and I constantly second-guess myself. Don't feel you need to read this, I think it will just help me to write it down.

I am the eldest of five children. My dad is a classic narcissist and I am not sure whether my mum is an enabler or whether she also has narc tendencies. Both my parents had strong beliefs that they were superior/more enlightened than other people. We didn't socialise with other children until we went to school and my parents almost delighted in making us seem 'different' to others, with the inevitable consequence of being bullied. I have always felt that they had zero interest in what our personalities were and who we were as people - we were more for show and to show off their 'enlightened' parenting, which included having birthday gifts taken away from us in front of friends if they were not deemed appropriate. I remember being picked up by my dad from a school disco aged 12 with a friend and he insisted (for no objective reason) that we had to leave the disco 15 minutes before it finished, just so that it caused awkwardness.

I have no recollection of ever having fun with my parents as a child. We weren't allowed to call them mum and dad, we had to use their first names. Everything was deadly serious. My dad would make what, looking back, were actually quite cruel jokes about me being bad at musical instruments and sports. He told me that I was intellectually superior to others, yet simultaneously told me I was stupid when I wanted to study a different subject to what he wanted to at university. I over-achieved academically and he likes boasting now about his clever daughter (and how it was down to him). There are many many more examples like this. He was physically abusive to my mum when they got divorced, including in front of his children.

My mum was different. No overt narcissism but incredibly passive aggressive. I would live in fear of annoying her (still do). I remember her throwing food and other things away as punishment if we misbehaved. She told me recently that she was proud of never having played with any of us as children. She has a cold way of suddenly ending relationships by just freezing the other person out. She never stood up to my dad, even though she didn't display the grandiosity he did. Again, no real interest in who we were as people/personalities. She is very stubborn and I know it is absolutely futile to change her mind. She sometimes puts pressure on me to open up and tells me that I am abnormally secretive when I won't. I wouldn't talk to her about any personal stuff and I never have done. She has met very few of my friends but says that is due to me being weird. She will openly discuss my 'flaws' with her own friends.

The most disturbing thing is that when my parents divorced (when I was around 12), my mum decided to move to the UK (I was born and spent my childhood in a different European country) and she said she was only taking my youngest three siblings and leaving me and my sister with my dad. The thought of that was so scary that we eventually asked her if we could come with her and she agreed. But when I asked her about this, decades later, she denies it happened. She said the plan was always that all the children would come with her and that I must have misremembered. I felt like I was going mad - I know it happened and my sister knows it happened but she straight up denies it.

I think this has come to a head again now because after years of depression and latching onto men who treated me like crap or were indifferent, I have found someone nice and he seems to like me too. The problem is that I am having all these strong emotions because there is a voice inside me saying that I don't deserve to be happy, that he will eventually find out what a loser I am and lose interest. I have tried making lists about things that I like about myself but I still get intrusive thoughts.

I don't know what I want really but it does feel a bit better putting it down on the page. Strength to all you other lovely people on here. xxx

@MonkeyfromManchester Thankyou for validating me, that means more than you’ll ever know. I’ve not had validity like that before when it’s come to my family of origin. I’m so grateful to you.

I’ve told DH that as a mother it’s my job to protect my child, not throw her into the lions den and that over time they may very well try and email him. He has my back, bless him. Understandably he is nowhere near to getting his head around what is going on inside mine, I’m beating myself up, but on the communication side, he’s ace.

Off to look into the apps now. Thankyou for the advice. Money is really tight (due to chronic illness) so we have limited income within this home but I’ll see what I can do.

@Sicario @AttilaTheMeerkat thank you for the advice

I know you're right

Just found this thread and Omg I wish I had years ago . I thought I was the only person in the world with such a confusing , shaming , guilt feeling , embarrassing relationship with my mother . She has somehow made me feel guilty and responsible for her happiness all my life . Still to this day and I’m 52 yrs old and still can’t be stronger in myself and believe in myself . She’s always made me feel like I’m not a good daughter to her ( even tho I’ve tried and tried but it’s never enough ) she’s in poor health and I’m all she has left . My father and her divorced when I was 8yrs old . She started to hit me at about 14 and from about 17 yrs to the day I moved out , 22 yrs , everytime we rowed she would take my face off with a slap , often in front of my then boyfriend but again it was all my fault !! I confronted her about this about 10 yrs ago in which she denied and she it was me that hit her !! Her saying that hurt me more than the slaps and hair pulling back then . She has always been very cold towards me but I know deep down (I think ) she does love me . I have children of my own now and I’m thankfully totally different with them . My problem is , is that she is now a frail old lady with only me to help her . I should of addressed all this years ago but I was constantly on the try harder wheel . I resent doing stuff and struggle to be in her company . Im gunna feel soooo much guilt when she goes because of all the rows we’ve had in the past (me being very frustrated , longing for her love and a good relationship) I couldn’t make that happen . Did I try hard enough . Did I say hurtful things to her (can’t think of any ) I know I sound pathetic, but I havnt got the strength and confidence in myself to think any other way . I totally admire all you lovely ladies dealing with stuff , going no contact etc I hope you are all proud of that . I wish I could of stuck up for myself and done that , I just feel it’s too late now . I feel ashamed of myself for letting her have such an impact on me all this time and still does . I love her and I’m so scared of her dieing . I trying to figure out a way of what to do , so that when she dies I won’t feel so much guilt and longing for her love . Writing this has made me realise how messed up I am still in my 50’s . So embarrassing.

Hi Wildflowerbeauty (great name that)

Do not feel ashamed that its taken all these years to realise the impact she has had (and still does) on you. Many only realise quite late in life too but you can start the process of healing.

Its not your fault your mother was and remains abusive and you did not make her that way. She has left you with fear, obligation and guilt and that in spades. You have NOTHING to be guilty about or for when it comes to your mother, a woman too who used violence on you when she felt like it. Do you think she feels any guilt or remorse; unlikely and such toxic people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions. SHE is the abusive one who did not try hard enough, she is the one who said and did hurtful things to you. She has been projecting her own self onto you.

Its hard being the last one left who bothers with someone like this but these people really have no family and or friends around them for good reason. She is using you as an emotional dumping ground and you should not feel obligated now to look after her. Ask yourself would you have tolerated this from a friend?. Women like your mother also cannot do relationships so the men in their lives are either as narcissistic as they are or are otherwise discarded. Your dad upped and left, sadly not taking you with him. Is he in your life at all now?.

Its never too late Wildflower Beauty, not at all. You can reclaim and rebuild your life here without her in it; you do not owe her anything at all here let alone a relationship. Drop the guilt that hangs over you; its a truly useless emotion when it comes to people like your mother and as I say she does not feel guilty for what she has put you through. Ask yourself why you at all want to be involved with her now.

You will need to grieve for the relationship you should have had rather than the one you actually got. Finding a good therapist, preferably one who is a member of the BACP, and one at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment, is a must do.

Do read "Will I ever be good enough?" by Karyl McBride and consider also contacting NAPAC napac.org.uk/.

rachealsrest.org/abusive-parent-dies-different-kind-grief/ is a good article.

Thankyou for your response, I really appreciate it . When I confronted her years ago about her slapping me a lot , and pulling my hair and hitting me once with a stick she denied it . She said I was the one who hit her (total bollocks , I never have ever) I said to her if she can’t tell the truth and show any remorse , then I’m done with her . She then admitted it and said. ‘ok I’m sorry , but do you think I’m the type of mother that would hit you for nothing’ I was flabbergasted. I was such a lovely, hurt , vulnerable , hard working teenager …. My father is still in my life . He is lovely when we speak on the phone (he lives away) but I can only talk to him about trivial stuff , he doesn’t talk about serious stuff and I can’t open up to him . My mother has been loyal to me in the past . Ie sticking up for me when I needed some one . I don’t recall her saying spiteful things to me when I was little , in fact I know she loved me by sticking up for me with my dad . She has got some good points . I couldn’t walk away now and leave her . I think I will always be left feeling responsible for our crap relationship for not being good enough . I need to work on my self esteem I think .

@Findingithard43 you have found your tribe. We will listen and support you. We will believe you about your shit childhood. There are a ton of useful resources on the first page of this forum. I'm glad you've found a good partner. There's no “he seems to like me”, he likes you! Shit families make us feel that we are undeserving or give us an (understandable) distrust of people? Have you considered therapy to help you?

@Parishcouncil you are completely welcome. You will get tons of validation here. Don't beat yourself up. I'm so glad you've got a supportive partner. You DESERVE it. There are probably free sleep apps out there. Definitely lots of stuff on YouTube for sleep and self-worth. Keep on, keeping on.

@Wildflowerbeauty yes, work on your self-esteem. It's so worth it. Lots of free resources out there. So glad you know and believe the facts of what happened to you. Can you pass some of the care of your mum to social services? This helps immeasurably . This is what I've done with my MIL. Don't be guilt tripped - you've got responsibility to yourself. Don't feel guilty.

Well, as predicted The Hag is bribing us with money: paying for SIL’s apartment, the hideous meal on Sat night, the grim Sunday lunch. We can expect an envelope stashed with tenners later.

ALWAYS THE PATTERN. Bribe us to forget and forgive. No fucking way. I don’t want £, i want dignity and respect. This is so common with narcs.

I was weighing up this morning as to just how many people will rock up to her funeral. Handful

About to start therapy so thought I could use this to sort through my thoughts.

In essence: 2 young teenage parents. One a misogynistic bully, the other a spoilt narcissist.

Dad would abuse my mum emotionally and physically. He worked shift work so was absent quite a lot but when I was younger, I didn't understand the abuse and loved him. As I got older and started to see his behaviour, we began to butt heads. He was controlling and would use the 'my house my rules' mantra to excuse a lot of his abuse. Night before my GCSE exams he came home from a night shift and was blaring music really loudly underneath my bedroom. When I asked him to turn it down, he screamed abuse at me and turned it up. He would impose a 'children must be seen and not heard' household upon me and my brother. We had to knock to go into their bedroom and he would shout at us if we interrupted him/them or woke him up from his sleep. When his mental health started declining, he was convinced my mum was having an affair and bugged the house with recording devices and would go through all of our things and have spyware on the computers to read through our emails etc.

Mum was a spoiled rich brat who left the world behind when she met my dad. As long as he paid for everything, she stayed. She has zero emotional intelligence and made everything about her. Once after a horrifically bad argument, I swallowed a bunch of pills and she made it about her screaming 'why did you do this to me? Why are you punishing me'. She would explode into rages at any opportunity. If she was angry at my dad, she'd take it out on us (she'd beat me with the hairbrush if I complained she was being rough, slap me in the face if I looked at her funny etc). She would get at me about my looks and tell me I'd never meet her (estranged) father because I was spotty and fat. She adored my younger brother because he was like her - mischievous, a brat, class clown, but most of all he was 'pretty'. I was an ugly kid who got better with age. When she and my dad would fight, she'd climb into my bed at night and demand I take her side in the argument.

I have no relationship with my dad anymore because his mental health induced by drugs has got so bad that even my mum left him. My mum is my best friend. I feel like I was completely on my own growing up with no emotional support from my parents. They didn't care how I felt as long as I behaved and did as they asked. My mum is still a narcissist. She doesn't dare lash out at my brother because they are the same person and she's scared of him, so I get all of her bad mood. If I don't agree to do something she wants, it's carnage. I've got better in standing up for myself.

But my childhood has had serious repercussions on my life now. I'm really defensive. If I feel someone is being at all critical of me, it triggers me. If someone tells me what to do, it triggers me. If someone records me without my consent, it triggers me. My current relationship is very triggering because he's similar to my dad in that he feels as the man he should lead and make all the decisions, and it makes me fight hard to keep my independence and control.

Thanks for reading. Has been good getting it out.

@Pinkbottletop
Your mum is your best friend ???
Doesn't sound healthy to put it mildly !
It sounds like you have had a tough childhood x

@MonkeyfromManchester
Sending love to you ❤️
What an evil old cunt she is.
Good that others see it.
Your sil sounds lovely :)

Mum is OK. Ish. Got "surprise" guests from abroad coming from Friday to Sunday (looking forward to seeing my cousin who is also a carer for her rather difficult mother...) But mum will go into meltdown. Sigh.
I'm doing airport pick ups/drop offs, have organised an air bnb for them, booked lunch for Sunday...But she will still get agitated.

I'm actually dreading it. My horrible aunt is coming. She just upsets everyone.

Mum's not eating much. Needs her stick at all times now.

She's just given £5k to my sister for her ridiculously lavish 2nd wedding. Sigh.

Oh, well.

Once the money is gone it's gone. I've told her dh and I can't afford to run a second household.

It will be interesting to see if siinfs suddenly remember mum exists once the visitors land 😉 🤔 😏

I’m back after a bit of a hiatus.

Everyone seems to have forgotten all about DSis wedding and are excited for her pregnancy. It is fantastic news and I’m so glad they were lucky enough to not have any troubles.

There was a family gathering at the weekend and she announced in no context whatsoever, ‘well I’m carrying the grandchild so I can do what I like’.

Today she sent me a bit of a judgy text (trying to banter with me I suppose) saying, you’ll never guess what, -person’s name- who you went to school with is dating my friend who is the same age as me! How weird! Referring to the age gap, which is about 5/6 years. They’re both in their 20s so I see no issue really and it’s nobody else’s business to judge. I told her this and she quickly got funny with me. I felt like it was just a bit of a dig at me though. Has also been sharing social media posts about people that think they can identify narcissism through videos they’ve watched on TikTok. Thought it was a bit ironic.

Problem is she does not respect me as an equal to her, whilst the behaviour has stopped for now I am not respected as somebody on the same level. End of. Probably never will be. I want to take a step back and feel not obligated to meet her, but she keeps asking and I feel if I’m not careful it will get painted that I don’t care about her and I’m this terrible sister… just like she did before the wedding. If I can’t make one of the many private scans I know I will be in trouble as she’s already hinted so. She’s only first trimester atm but I put together a tiny bag for her and a little accessory for baby. Just dunno what to do!

chatterbug22

Ignore the goady text for what it really is and delete. You would not tolerate such from a friend so do not tolerate it from your sister.

I see she is still up to her old tricks again; these types of toxic people are so very predictable. And she wants you to go to her private scans too, no surprise there either. She's making this pregnancy all about her really, not the baby.

Maintain your distance, both physical and mental, from her. Boundaries are vitally important to maintain and keep on using here. Same with your parents; how are they behaving currently?.