April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Pinkbottletop

Your mother is your best friend?. It is not possible to have a relationship with a narcissist.

I wish you the best of luck with and in therapy. What sort of therapist are you seeing; I hope you interviewed such people carefully and at length before choosing any particular one. I would also discuss your current relationship with the therapist too as we tend to repeat in our adult relationships what is familiar already to us.

@AttilaTheMeerkat I know it's weird that she is, but when I had my child she was so supportive and the way she is with my child is way different to the parent she was to me when I was younger. She still has the odd outburst but since leaving my dad and since I've found boundaries, they aren't as impactful as before. She recognises her cold and empty ways were damaging for me.

I've gone through a therapist with work. Lots of profiles to choose from. As i'm not paying for it, I can make my way through them until I find one that suits me. Thanks for your reply.It means a lot.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you. She has been posting on social media a lot about narcissism lately / people who manipulate which I really don’t understand, it seems so ironic, I don’t know how she can’t see. Parents have been fine, my mum seems to like me a lot more when I am getting on with my sister. It’s just stressful as I feel obliged to otherwise it’ll be ‘don’t you care about your niece or nephew’ or ‘well, you weren’t here for me now so you don’t get to meet them’. It’s very nice about me when other people can hear and little digs that she can get away with when not.

My mum is also nicer to my daughter than she is to me but it's still projection.

I have to be insane, paranoid, sensitive et cetera, because I have called her out on hurting me.

She is nice to my daughter because she respects her and sees her as a better version of me, or maybe, her ?

If my daughter is a better version of either of us it's because she had, and at 19 still has a supportive validating mother who sees her as a real person. I never had that.

Thank you so much for the reply @MonkeyfromManchester . Yes, definitely feeling I am not worthy of happiness. It’s a lifelong pattern but your post made me feel better about myself.
I have tried counselling before but I think I got unlucky with counsellors. I had one who genuinely told me that I had nothing to be upset about because (in her words) I was pretty and professionally successful! This was after I had been talking about my feelings of self-loathing and how I feel I can never be good enough. I might try it again and be really really selective about the counsellor (the horrendous one was through a work scheme so I had no choice).

Findingithard43

The wrong counsellor can do an awful lot of harm. Have a look at the BACP website.

Indeed be selective and treat them as if they are candidates for a job interview. . Interview them carefully and at length before settling on any particular one to work with. You also ideally need to find someone with no familial bias about keeping families together despite the presence of mistreatment.

J0y

I would keep your daughter well away from your mother as well because she will use her as a way to get back at you and/or to otherwise punish you. She could well see your DD as an extension of her also and as another source of supply.

@Chevyimpala67 my MIL is totally that. SIL totally sees it. Apparently, when Hag actually visited them in Aberdeen when toxic BIL was “playing happy families” and the boys were small, SIL witnessed a few of the Hag and his stand-up fights that which were edging into physical. Literally screaming into each other’s faces. I didn't know this, but family legend has it that Hag stormed home back to Manchester as “victim”. Mr Monkey has put a load of happy family pics up on social media and tagged me. I've removed myself from everything featuring Hag. I feel sorry that he wants this happy family narrative, but, at the same time, I get it.

God, these family visits open a complete can of worms, don't they? You do everything and she's agitated? Sounds familiar! Comparing notes with your cousin sounds good. Taking it your aunt is your mum’s sister? I've found understanding - or trying to! - the toxic family dynamic helpful (doesn't excuse it) so I can spot what's coming next.

Is the 5k to your sister part of a pattern? Totally agree re not bailing your mum out. Is your sister the taker?

I can’t do this any more. I haven’t got the strength. Too broken and they’ve well & truly got to my brother.
No sleep, too all-consuming,
Not fixable so I should just disappear.

@Parishcouncil if you are feeling at crisis point, please reach out to a mental health crisis service. No one should go what you are going through without in person support. X and, of course, we are all here to support and give perspective but not mental health professionals x I totally understand - we all do - why toxic childhoods make life unbearable. Hugs to you. Xxx

@Parishcouncil So sorry you're feeling that way and I hope you're able to find some support in person. There will be up and down days, please remember when you're down that this will pass. A year ago I was feeling shattered. I was hugely shocked and upset that my cousins took my mother's side, and dropped me without even asking my side of what happened. It hurts, it's so unfair. But, like me, with help you can get through this. I understand finances are an issue so therapy is difficult for you right now, hopefully this can change soon.

In the meantime, I'd recommend a book I read recently which I found really helpful "Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, or Self-Involved Parents" by Lindsay C Gibson. I think it was about a tenner on Kindle, or it might be possible to take out from your local library? It's quite clearly laid out, has examples of behaviours and it helped me to understand that it's not me, it's them, which was very validating.

In the very short term, do something nice for yourself. Take deep slow breaths, maybe smell something nice, walk in the garden or a park, have a cup of tea and a biscuit, and try to be in the moment with those things rather than dwelling on the things you can't control. Also remember you're not alone.

@chatterbug22 I love the way narcs get interested in narcissism and bang on about it as it's a great way to be “fashionable” (us lot it wanted consigned to landfill) and to make themselves into a victim. Try as much to keep your distance. The baby thing WILL become a drama. Keep talking here.

@Escapingafter50years the ups and downs are so true. I had a wobble earlier today when I thought maybe we should invite the Hag for lunch one day. Then I had a firm word with myself. @Parishcouncil it does get easier. I clocked on to The Hag’s Narcissistic ways three years ago and it took me time to process it and then do something about it - now NC - and she’s NOT my mother. Thank god.

Classic Hag moment.

Both Mr Monkey and I got savaged by insects this weekend whilst sitting out in the garden with the sane family.

I’ve got cellulitis (Google but after your dinner) and he’s got an infection. The antibiotic horse tablets have disagreed with me so I’ve taken the day off (freelance) Having a nice doze on the sofa when the phone rings.

It’s MM’s mobile, Hag doesn’t ring the landline now as we don’t pick up and she’s blocked on my mobile.

MM is in the loo (IBS) so he rings back when he’s not indisposed.

I noticed that MM didn’t tell her about the bites as this either elicits false health panic by her as part of caring mother act OR disregard.

Pointless to share anything like this.

He’s still pissed off by her behaviour this weekend.

she asks about the money she pushed through the front door earlier today.

Hag doesn’t ring the door bell as I might answer and thar wouldn’t be good for her ego as 1) I still live here, MM hasn’t come to his senses and booted me out
2) she can’t bully me anymore so where’s the fun in that?
and 3) she gets the cold shoulder.

This £ is guilt money for vileness this weekend. MM hasn’t opened the envelope because he’s just finished a heavy day at work and is disinterested because it’s a BRIBE. He says thank you, but doesn’t gush.

Hag is clearly narked that her hoovering didn’t get major attention SO she begins the attack.

”where were you? Why didn’t you pick up the phone?”
”I was in the loo”
”you’re always in the loo. Have you got diarrhoea or something” accompanied by nasty laugh. MM finds his bad IBS really embarrassing.

”no, I’ve got IBS which I’ve told you about many times” she’s not interested or she’d remember.
”well, you should take your phone to the toilet” WTAF.
”I don’t take my phone to the toilet”
”oh, I’ll just go then if you don’t want to talk to me” edging further into row mode.
”OK, then”
He rings off.

I cannot believe what a vile and crude bitch she is.

She must spend her days wondering why people don’t want her company, why people don’t jump to her every demand (no jumping to anything here anymore!) and why MM pushes back. She will never be the wiser.

The only person who endures this shit is Slave Son and THAT is his fault.

Now planning a nice weekend and then a weekend away over Bank Holiday. NONE of it will involve her.

Thankyou. Sorry for being a pain. I received an email from my brother. We’ve not been close for years (narcissistic triangulation from parents plus admittedly some anger on my part which I’ve worked really hard on to improve) and I genuinely thought we were building on trust and getting somewhere but thanks to them, it seems not.

They’ve told him a pack of lies about me, embroiling their grandchild. He (obviously) believes them like he always did. It’s knocked me sideways, I genuinely thought/hoped we were moving forward 😞I don’t deserve this. I can prove by my WhatsApp messages and time-stamped photos that they’re lying but know deep down there’s no point in even bothering to try to explain. He’s been brainwashed.

Got home from work and compiled a list of all their nasty, vindictive words and actions, just to get it all out. I did put them online in a previous post but got them removed for fear of being outed.

Thankyou for being here for me, it means more than you know. I’ll have a look at the book & free sleep apps x

@MonkeyfromManchester thats horrible, IBS is debilitating and no doubt a side effect of what he has had to deal with it Little does she know. Do you think she actually understands the effect of her words on him? Thank you for what you said x

@Parishcouncil don’t spin yourself into oblivion trying to prove yourself, you don’t have anything to defend and it will just feed what they say more and more as they’ll find a way to say it’s you having a reaction. Gosh, it sounds so tough. It can’t be nice at all. Hugs x

Does anyone have any tips on how to accept that she is how she is.

I just can’t make peace with it try as I might, worse that I feel other family members (my mum mainly) are upset and somehow blame me as she outwardly paints the situation as me not wanting anything to do with her - I really do, I’d love to get on, but she will never regard me as her equal, will always know better.

I am a year or two before thinking of DC but she is already lording the fact she has the grandchild. Everyone is obviously very excited for her, me included, it’s a fab chapter. As horrid of me as this might sound I feel rather trapped and like I can’t put some distance in even if I need to, otherwise she will use it as a token and say if I don’t spend time with her in pregnancy I won’t see the baby and blah blah.
I think even when the baby is born, it will be ‘you’ll know one day what it’s like’ or ‘don’t hold her like that oh my goodness’ etc. I don’t want to feel belittled but I sense I will be, I spent my younger years working in a baby room of a nursery. Doesn’t compare to having one obviously but will mean I’m at least adequate as an auntie.

On a separate note, this might sound like I’m overstepping but I feel worried for DSis that she will not be in a good place mentally when baby arrives and leading up to it. Her demeanour is still exceptionally insecure and looking for trouble at every opportunity. I worry about that and what that would be like for her DC but guess it isn’t my place to and only time will tell.

My self esteem is not good, generally. I feel inadequate against my sister and like both me and my partner are inadequate against her and hers. Left out of conversations etc, or it feels like they’re in a club that we’re not part of. You know when people do that thing where they chat openly about a random thing but never look at you or so much as glance in your way when they’re speaking? Feels so exclusive. My dad, however, is really good at trying to include everyone and he will do his best. He carries it tbh and doesn’t get into any cliquey conversations.

You’re absolutely right. Was always told ‘m too sensitive, over-emotional. I need to take control. At 19, I attempted something and even that resulted in being told by one parent that I was a stupid girl and by the other that I was to hide it from my brother and tell him I was simply in A&E due to a stomach bug. No empathy, no love, no care, no questions as to why, just more verbal poison and protection of my brother.

I’ve lost me…actually I’ve never had a ‘me’ to lose.

Hard to not take personally.

@Parishcouncil I get that about losing yourself. On another thread recently, about inner child work, a poster remarked that this sort of work was to get you back to where you were before being changed by childhood trauma. This knocked me sideways as my therapist has pointed out that I was emotionally neglected from the time I was adopted at only a few weeks old. So I wondered how do I find out who was I before, given I was a very young baby.

I talked to my therapist yesterday and she said that yes, it's different for people who have ended up in abusive relationships as adults, they can get back to who they felt like before the relationship (although in many cases they end up in relationships because they have inadequate boundaries due to poor parenting). But for people like us it can be very stressful to wonder 'who am I?' and 'is there a real me?'. My therapist says your core is always there, and learning more about yourself will help have confidence in who you are. For me it's largely about understanding boundaries as I was never allowed any, and to understand that other people's emotional issues are not my problem to fix. I'm learning to not feel guilty about being kind to myself, it is a fundamental right to be treated with respect. If anyone doesn't treat me with respect, and consider my feelings, I will tell them I'm not comfortable with their behaviour. If they do not take this on board, I will step back from them.

Like you, I was told I was too sensitive, had "no sense of humour". I had to behave perfectly or the verbal abuse was vile and so hurtful. Yet my (golden) sibling who had horrendous behaviour issues and treated me really badly was forgiven anything without even having to apologise. We have no relationship now and my "mother" has never understood that her (and my alcoholic father's) behaviour is the root cause of this.

I will say that now that I've not seen my mother in over a year, and no written contact for a few months, my life is much more peaceful. I never want to see the bitch again. Just because someone is related to you does not give them the right to abuse you.

Hi guys,

Posted a while ago, and been reading this thread daily. Even though it’s an horrible subject matter, I do find it reassuring there are others going through this. Bad club, good people.

One thing I am really struggling with is knowing I will never know what it’s like to be parented, to feel love from a parent. Another thing is that deep down, I still can’t help thinking that it must be my fault for the way I acted as a teenager.

It was my wedding a few weeks ago - where I invited my father who I had not seen for 5 years (big mistake) - he was incredibly rude to me, which I walked away from, and then he basically spent the entire wedding avoiding me, and left without saying good bye, no gift, no contribution. I feel like he was so out of his comfort zone (basically being around fun, kind, happy people) and kind of had a melt down. He didn’t walk me down the aisle, sit on top table etc (not sure what he expected) but I feel like it must have been an incredibly awkward experience for him. Good.

He is a joyless, misogynist, racist, sizeist, bully and possible narcissist, and just a really negative, unpleasant human being. It was embarrassing that he acted as he did but at least my husband, his family and my good friends finally got to see what I have been dealing with for all these years.

My mother isn’t as bad, a socially awkward and fairly cold woman, defo on the spectrum, completely negative and bitchy about anyone who doesn’t conform. For instance I have never heard her say one good word about my brother or his family. She told me that my daughter was the only ‘good grand child’, suggesting that her other grand daughter was ‘bad’ (she is higher energy, aged 2, and overstimulated at a busy wedding), I tried to explain gently why her viewpoint was wrong. During the setup day for the wedding (she is disabled now so could not physically help out) she made several unhelpful comments suggesting I had abandoned my daughter that day (I am a SAHM so I have her everyday), or how I had not asked about her, and asking me to get her a gin and tonic (whilst I was running around sorting a lot of stuff out). She did not say I looked beautiful that day, nor did she say she was proud after I did my speech. She did shed a tear though when I told her how horrible my dad had been.

My parents had a horrible dysfunctional dynamic and divorced when I was 20. It’s really hard to explain but it was almost like my father used me as pawn to make her jealous. So from a young age I was party to this manipulation which perhaps on a very young conscious level I was aware of. The result was my mum was completely ambivalent towards me, sometimes ignoring me for months. One of my early memories of singing a song to my mum I had made up for her, and her not really appreciating/acknowledging it. I defo remember the feeling of rejection, and unsurprisingly I never formed an attachment with her. It was made worse by this fake attachment with my Dad, being his golden child, until I wasn’t anymore around age 12 when I finally realised he wasn’t the oracle on all things like he portrayed himself to be.

I am having all sorts of flashbacks. Some semi good (which kind of makes things worse actually) and some pretty bad. Shouting, manipulation, disrespect, lack of privacy, aloneness, anger, threats, discipline, and just memories of a living in a very hostile environment for 17 years. I do wonder about all the stuff I don’t fully remember, and what flashbacks will come next, I never trusted them so I think there’s good reasons for that.

I have been in therapy for years now. I feel it’s all finally coming to ahead in my mind since the wedding. It’s hard to process.

I have low contact with my mother, but not sure there’s much point in going fully no contact as she has no hold over me whatsoever. She lives about 3 hours away anyway so it’s never going to be close. We never speak on the phone (I hate speaking on the phone to anyone I think possibly cause of some of the horrible phone calls I have had from my dad over the years). She did not help me when my baby was born, I was angry at her as she said some fairly unhelpful things around induction when my baby was ‘late’. I didn’t buy her an xmas present last year for first time - just so bored of her saying ‘what do you want this year’ and just ordering something from Amazon, I have always gone out my way to get her a unique present, but I don’t think she has ever done that in her life. I have no desire to communicate with her very much anymore, it’s her fault my dad was invited to the wedding as she put pressure on me to do so (no idea why as they hate each other) - I said at the time ‘oh so you want me to invite my dad so you feel comfortable but in doing so make myself uncomfortable on my big day’.

I have a brother and I have never broached with him how I feel our parents were abusive. He is having some mental health problems right now. It’s hard to know how to tackle it. He is still very much in the narcissistic grasp of our father. I do believe he knows he’s an awful person but I think he plays the game due to inheritance and also blind duty. He is neuro diverse and not well off at all, three kids and him and his wife in a 2 bed council house, all whilst my dad rattles around in his 3 bed house where he lives alone (his girlfriend hasn’t moved in after 20 years together - pretty telling) and dad had made it clear he will get the house when he dies. I told him that I am going fully no contact with our dad and he said he was sorry he couldn’t keep him happy at the wedding and ultimately prevent his bad behaviour, that broke my heart. I just wish I could save him from years more of having to endure this horrendous man, and I also worry for my niece being exposed to him.

I am not sure what I need from posting this but it’s good to get it all out.

Sending hugs everyone

@failinghard you really need to cut both your parents out of your life fully. They are both narcs and everyone on here will recognise their behaviour as such.

Their behaviour is unforgivable but I noticed you try and find ways to 'forgive' them. For example, your Mum being on the spectrum and your Dad finding the wedding overwhelming.

They both only thought about themselves on your special day. They went to great lengths to demonstrate how insignificant your needs are to theirs.

You are too important and valuable to waste time on people like this.

@Minimalme thanks for your response. That's defo an eye opener that I do that.

I haven't spoken to my mum directly (we only WhatsApp anyway) for a month since the wedding... when I said it was ok she forgot to get me a birthday present haha. I have invited her to my daughters 1st birthday but I am going to suggest they stay a hotel and the day will not be about entertaining them, they will have to fit in to what's going on. I am hoping they don't come. I do like my step dad actually, and a lot of the people at the wedding have said they really liked him too, he does all the caring of her so I am thankful that I don't have to worry about that. I am low contact and have been all my adult life tbh, out of instinct more than anything conscious, I think this is how I will keep it but never go out of my way to see her anymore eg if we are my husbands family's house she is welcome to come close for lunch to see her grand child.

As for my dad, I will never speak to him again. His girlfriend of 20 years sent me email after the wedding to wish me happy birthday 'your dad and I would like to wish you happy birthday' - blocked (obv too much effort to send a card). And then I got a wedding card from my dad a week after the wedding he walked out of, saying have many happy years together blah blah blah. Funny how these words don't match actions. Chucked it in the bin, and have blocked my step mum on FB, not because she has done anything wrong per se but she enables him to act in this way (he deliberately picks women who would not say boo to a goose) and I don't want my dad to have the opportunity to see pics of my daughter growing up. I haven't made a big deal of any of it, just not responding and blocking, slipping off quietly with no drama.

I have been having so many intrusive thoughts since the wedding, some involve imagining my dad hurting us in some way. He's so sinister. The wedding has been an impetus for this, I wish I had never invited him 👎

@failinghard I am so sorry to read that you're still suffering the after effects of a difficult upbringing and also that your parents are such negative influences in your life.

One thing jumped out at me, the intrusive thoughts about your Dad hurting you and your family. This is a sign of your deep distress and as I'm sure you know, is a type of OCD. See if there are some ways that you can access support to manage this. It's potentially a sign of PTSD as well?

Look after yourself and try your best to be compassionate and kind with yourself. Each time an intrusive thought comes up, see if you can reframe it in a way that is kinder to yourself.

Take courage and strength from all that you've achieved.

failinghard

I would rescind your mother's invitation to your DDs first birthday party as she will likely bring up the subject of your dad or find some other way in which to ruin or otherwise spoil your DDs first birthday. She to my mind is just as much at fault here as your dad is. They created this familial dysfunctional dynamic both your brother and you are still suffering from.

What made you think of ASD re her?.

Research shows people with autism may struggle with cognitive empathy because they are unable to recognize and name emotions based on facial expressions. Eye scan studies found people with autism tend to look at the periphery of a face rather than pay attention to the eyes and mouth, where emotions are typically displayed.

However, while cognitive empathy can be lower in people with autism, affective empathy—which is based on instincts and involuntary responses to the emotions of others—can be strong and overwhelming. In fact, newer research suggests that some people with autism may actually feel other people's emotions more intensely.

BTW she acts very similar to my MIL (where you wrote about she asking you what you want this year and then ordering something from Amazon resonated) and she is a covert narcissist.

Anyone- how can I take a step back from my sister in this situation?

Sure you might have seen my posts before, those of you who’ve replied will have anyway. She is pregnant and naturally really excited, but her behaviour continues to be unpleasant and controlling. The gaslighting hasn’t stopped. I bought her a nice gift bag for her and the baby with just a couple of token bits inside (she’s still first trimester) but even so if I don’t show maximum involvement she will make out like I’m alienating her, that she feels lonely, that I’m cruel for not being more available etc

I don’t even know what I’m going to do when the baby is born. I don’t feel like I should accept my sisters treatment of me just because she’s pregnant, but if I don’t it might literally affect whether I get along with a niece or nephew forever. As judgemental as this may sound she is still very insecure and I worry for her despite everything, because I’m not sure how she will mentally get by behaving the way she does. Children copy, don’t they.

I realised something earlier too. My mum does not get along with her sister/my auntie, not for lack of her trying, my auntie just doesn’t match her effort. I think my sister sees this situation and plays into it as my mum sympathises with her that way- they both have unavailable, uncaring sisters and it feels rubbish. Obviously two different situations and I want to have a relationship with my sister, but she’s pushed me to take a step back