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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

1000 replies

AttilaTheMeerkat · 17/04/2022 00:42

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 26/07/2022 21:17

No worries Justrealised😎.

OP posts:
SoDamDone · 27/07/2022 22:15

Nc for this you guys get that

Anyone available to listen/help?

@AttilaTheMeerkat if you're about I'd appreciate any help you could give

AttilaTheMeerkat · 28/07/2022 05:45

Glad to be of help.

OP posts:
Escapingafter50years · 28/07/2022 11:43

Sconeface · 25/07/2022 09:38

@Escapingafter50years I find it really interesting so many of us on this have to reach nearly the 50 mark before we realise we don't have to put up with it, and that seems to be the case for both men and women on here. Definitely for me, I just look back on the last number of years of events and things ruined and if I had only decided earlier how different could things have been. At least it shows and decision to disengage has not been done lightly, it's been with decades of thought behind it.

Yes indeed, not done lightly but one of my biggest difficulties in coming to terms with realising I have been emotionally abused all of my life is that I didn't recognise it sooner. It was only after my Dad died (alcoholic who stopped drinking many years previously but enabled my "mother") that I started to realise her behaviour is as bad as my narc sibling from whom I've been estranged many years. Before that I was always kind of an outsider in my family and felt it must be my fault.

In my mother's side of the family, it is an absolute and unquestionable, though unspoken, rule that a mother's daughters must cater to her every need. So because I stepped outside the norm I have been ostracised by people I thought I was close to. That has been incredibly hurtful. In my head I know that the dynamic of rejecting anyone who doesn't behave as expected is really unhealthy and I should not want to associate with such people, but my heart is finding it hard to catch up with my head.

SoDamDone · 28/07/2022 13:51

I've a situation here at the moment where things have "blown up" and I'm worried about the fallout in a number of ways and not sure how to handle.

Basically person I am nc with has "discovered" rest of family still in contact with me and they've kicked off big time! They think that my family should cut me off.

One person in particular is capitulating and said they can't see me for a while at least till things settle down which I'm quite hurt by

I don't know how to handle all this

Escapingafter50years · 28/07/2022 15:06

SoDamDone · 28/07/2022 13:51

I've a situation here at the moment where things have "blown up" and I'm worried about the fallout in a number of ways and not sure how to handle.

Basically person I am nc with has "discovered" rest of family still in contact with me and they've kicked off big time! They think that my family should cut me off.

One person in particular is capitulating and said they can't see me for a while at least till things settle down which I'm quite hurt by

I don't know how to handle all this

Sorry to hear you're going through this, I feel your pain. Certainly I wouldn't recommend doing the same as the person you are NC with. A relatively normal person understands that you cannot tell another person who they should or shouldn't be in contact with.

I'd suggest you could consider making it clear that you wouldn't do this because it is not normal. You are certainly within reason to explain that you are really hurt by the person capitulating and feel this could do long term damage to your relationship. Ostracising a person has consequences. Sounds like being NC is the right choice for you, but the other person who wants to let things "settle down" is possibly afraid what will happen to them if they don't support the bully.

It is very saddening to feel hard done by, by someone who knows you and you would hope understand you have been treated so poorly and support you.

SoDamDone · 28/07/2022 15:17

No I would never behave like the person I am nc with at all, I don't understand that at all

I have told the person capitulating that I am hurt at their response, they are afraid of certain consequences and I understand that of course, and that I am angry at the nc person for all they're doing

I'm sure you guys here will understand when I say that I have at times wondered whether going nc was the right thing to do this now has confirmed I absolutely made the right decision.

I think I am seen as I will always cope/be fine no matter what by the person capitulating but that's because I've had no choice as the narcissist always demands and gets the attention they want from them!

So I feel that the person capitulating has always enabled the narc and it's about damn time they said "enough!" But I can no more make them do anything than the narc should.

It's incredibly frustrating!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 28/07/2022 15:18

The narcissist is triangulating these other family members. This person will use them to get to you and continue abusing you through “messages” given to them. The family members and flying monkeys don’t realize they are being used. So even if you are “no contact” with the narcissist, you will still be in the abuse loop.

Make your own family through friends and people who will love, respect and protect you.

OP posts:
Escapingafter50years · 28/07/2022 16:47

@SoDamDone Sorry, hope you didn't think I assumed you would do the same! Re enablement, if it's parents it's even more difficult than siblings I think. I'm estranged from my sibling but was close to an aunt and cousins. The aunt told me I should make up with my "mother" as she "gave you a great start in life". I'm adopted, so now I know what they really think. My cousins, except for 1 unwitting flying monkey, have cut me off completely. "Mother" is being enabled by these people who I now realise, and will never forget, do not care about my wellbeing. Very painful, especially as I really didn't do anything wrong.
I agree with @AttilaTheMeerkat , surround yourself with people who love and respect you, in protecting you they will build you up rather than tear you down.

SoDamDone · 28/07/2022 17:10

@AttilaTheMeerkat I suspect you are right. I will try and sort it so the rest aren't discussing them with me I have no interest in their life and don't want them knowing about mine

I have amazing friends who've always been more kind and supportive than family actually

failinghard · 30/07/2022 16:29

Wondering if this is the right place to share my story? Hoping to find some support with others who have gone through similar things with their parents.

Recently it has come to my attention that my Mum, Dad (undiagnosed) and brother (diagnosed) are all neuro-diverse. I would regard myself as neuro-typical. My personal journey to realising that my parents were emotionally neglectful started from therapy. I had so many self esteem issues in my twenties and early thirties that manifested in all sorts of self destructive ways (suicide attempts, brushes with the law, dependencies, bad crowds, eating disorders - all of which made me feel like even more of 'a problem' than my parents already made me feel like) and just a lack of moral compass, sense of identity and confusion about my story. I always knew my home life was not normal. I used to cry all the time, mostly in private, sometimes so my parents could hear - they never came to comfort me. For a long time I buried the emotional neglect, then started therapy about 10 years ago and realised it was not normal. That a young child shouldn't be so upset all the time and withdrawn as I was. I was asked to leave the parental home at 17 because of my behaviour and went to uni because it was my only option to get out (not because I actually had any interest in the degree course) and thinking back I would class me as feral. I had no idea how to be, so immature, so incredibly vulnerable. I was probably the worst kind of friend too, had no experience of community, give and take, collaboration.

Over the years, I have thought more and more about the early years of my life. Mostly it was lonely, a lot of time spent playing by myself but I think this was good for my imagination if I am trying to find positives. I think I was my dad's obsession - the apple of his eye - until I wasn't anymore. I think my dad played me off against my mum. To hurt her actually. He was angry, volatile and sometimes violent. They both were. He got more and more controlling as the years went on. Neither of them had any friends, they didn't speak to part of their families on both sides, and my dad seemed to isolate my mum further. I feel like my Dad had more going on than just ASD, he was such a bully... bullied all of us and we in term bullied one another. He is like the dad out of in betweeners who takes the piss out of his son and does anything to undermine him, everything is a joke.

My mum presents in different ways and has become increasingly unmasked in recent years. Very cold. Never says anything nice about anyone. Very negative person. Again, no friends, no dinner parties, no holidays with other families. She rarely went out and did stuff with us or for herself, a home bod. No real hobbies - but had things she enjoyed at home eg cross words, computer games, cooking and she worked in accounting. She likes routine and familiar places. She wasn't maternal in anyway but fairly dutiful (in some ways - but also not - she announced when I was 10 that I had to do all my own washing). She used to just ignore me, sometimes for months and months at a time, almost look through me. She was so rude to any of my friends, when they phoned or came round, to the point they didn't bother anymore and I felt too embarrassed of them to invite people round. Sometimes someone would ring for me and she would say I wasn't in. We went shopping once together during my childhood. We never did mum and daughter stuff like go out for lunch. She didn't have an interest in make up, dressing up etc - never told me I looked nice, not once.

Needless to say I never applied myself at school. Basically cause they didn't care what I did or didn't do. I never did any homework as they never helped me with it. They never were interested in what options I had taken, what subjects I enjoyed or did not, there was zero guidance or encouragement. They used to go to parents evening but never once discussed what my teachers said. They made no attempt to get to know me or help me know myself. They never told me how to look after myself and protect myself (from predators) and unfortunately ended up dating much older men from 15 which has affected me badly in my adult life.

We never had any adult influences when I was younger as they had no friends. We never did anything what I would call fun - it was always stuff that was my dad's special interest like war stuff, planes, trains and tonnes of National Trust places. Literally never went to a soft play. Most the time during teenage years I was told to get out the house, they didn't want me around. I wasn't popular at school, it took me a while to find my people, and was bullied a lot. It was so horrendous to be bullied at school, come home to hostility and then be forced out onto the streets with no where to go and no one to hang out with. I was just so lonely and wanted to die from about 11 years old. Not normal!

My brother is ASD and I wish I could say they were good at parenting him but unfortunately probably worse. Just took the piss out him and did nothing to boost his confidence. And dragged me into this type of dialogue too, something I feel terrible about today.

There were also lots of accidents when in care of mum - I fell down the stairs and badly hurt my head, brother chopped his finger off etc - she just seemed let us play unsupervised all the time. I have seen the way she is with my baby and I'd never leave her with her.

Childhood felt like I was in prison. There was no love at all. No guidance. No validation of my feelings. No safe place to land. No encouragement. If I had friends over they were not warmly welcomed, quite the opposite. I was bullied at school and came home to a cold environment. Tbh I am still angry. They should never have had kids. What doesn't make sense to me is that they also fostered children and my mum was a child minder for sometime. There are so many things that don't make sense.

My parents split acrimoniously about 20 years ago. They’ve never been able to be civil with each other. I hadn’t seen my Dad for 5 years until recently, we basically drifted apart. I got married last week and greeted him with a smile and a hug.
The first thing he said to me at my wedding was 'well it's a relief that someone has finally taken you on' (sexist, dehumanising) - not 'you look beautiful', 'I am proud of you' or even just 'congratulations'. It went downhill from there as well sadly, and he appeared to have some kind of mental health episode, actively avoiding me and leaving without saying goodbye. He wasn’t on the top table, didn’t give me away (me and DH walked down aisle together) and didn’t give a speech (I did my own), so perhaps he felt slighted somehow? He wasn’t paying for anything and didn’t offer. I am debating whether to go total NC after he was rude to me on my big day.

My mum didn't smile hardly at all. She seemed really out of her depth emotionally and socially. Realised I had never seen her in a social situation really. It was hard work - she was bugging me for drinks and suggesting I had abandoned my child (I was setting up my wedding and MIL was looking after her quite happily).

I did a speech and was very proud of myself - neither my dad, mum or brother have said well done. None of them brought a gift. None of them even said I look nice.

I am just so done with the lot of them tbh. The wedding showed me who different to normal parents. They exhaust me. Make me feel mad. And disappoint me.

I believe that I suffered from PTSD and borderline personality disorder for during teenage years
/ early twenties and prob only found stability in last 5 years. I tried to take my life twice, got into drugs and put myself at risk so many times. I am in a really good place now and have loads of friends but it's all down to me and nothing to do with the start in life I was given.

LoveToWearADress · 30/07/2022 17:45

@failinghard I am so sad to read this, and so sorry that you had no one warm or supportive who could parent you and love you in the way you deserve.

You have done an amazing job of parenting yourself and you are clearly going to do a great job with your DC as well.

Nothing more than that to say, other than I hope you'll find a good community of people here.

I'm neuro diverse and brought up by neuro diverse parents. I recognise a lot of what you describe, however somehow my parents have managed to keep a connection with me and they do make an effort. I just find it hard when they're negative or when they 'forget' about me. Things have been very up and down over the years. I know that actually being ND and brought up by ND parents was helpful in some ways as they never judged me (despite the fact they judge others) and I felt empowered by their upbringing as it allowed me to pursue some of my special interests with them.

That's not to take away from the very difficult experiences that you have so clearly had. I am sending all my warmest vibes across the internet.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/07/2022 18:05

Hi fh,

You lucked out completely in childhood having those two abusive horrors as your mum and dad. They abjectly failed you and your brother and I am so very sorry that shit childhood happened to you both. It is not your fault they are like this and you did not make them that way. Do you know anything at all about their own family backgrounds; this often gives clues. They likely repeated what was done to them to both you and your brother.

It is to your credit that you have emerged from broken and have a family of your own. Treasure your H and child and never put either in front of your parents. You also have two qualities your parents lack entirely; empathy and insight.

FWIW I think both your mum and dad are abusive and are not neuro diverse or on any ASD spectrum (re your dad). Who has thought otherwise?. Even if they are, its still NO excuse or justification for what they have put you both through. Reading the Out of the FOG website could well help, I would think your parents (and they are not worthy of being called such) have some forms of untreated, and untreatable, personality disorder. I am not altogether surprised they fostered children; many abusers come across as "respectable" and or "pillars of the community", evade the attention of authorities and otherwise operate in plain sight.

Have you ever considered therapy re your childhood?. I would consider seeing someone like a BACP registered therapist going forward and someone at that who has no familial bias about keeping families together. NAPAC are also worth contacting here napac.org.uk/. It may also be an idea for you to read some of the publications that are listed at the start of each Stately Homes thread.

Am very glad to read you are in a good place now; the best revenge here is living well. Continue to make your own family through friends and people who will love, respect and protect you.

I would also give yourself a new username too because its putting you down. That username you use is not you nor you now.

OP posts:
failinghard · 30/07/2022 19:08

Thanks so much @AttilaTheMeerkat and @LoveToWearADress - means a lot to get a kind response.

@AttilaTheMeerkat yes they both had bad childhoods, a lot of poverty on my Dad's side, disconnected family, death of a sibling at young age, abusive/unpleasant alcoholic mother and shell shocked father (likely some kind of fairly severe neuro diversity - like completely in his own world - everyone loved him). On my mother's side, very unpleasant mother - some kind of personality disorder most definitely - seemed very cruel, cold and did not like people, just her crossword - no one liked her. I know her mother was also abusive, as my mum said she used to chuck things at her. Don't know a lot about her Dad as he died when I was very young.

I definitely don't want to make excuses for them. I know they were abusive on many levels, and perhaps if they had had better starts in life then things would be different. I definitely think they both have lots of ASD traits. Dad has bi annual obsessions, never had any close friends, has meltdowns, very very controlling and likes a routine, incredibly regimented, some sensory stuff too around smell, rude without realising... but then I know some of the traits of ASD do cross over with narcissism eg not being able see outside themselves / appreciate others have emotions. Mum is just a total misanthrope and home bod, never had any friends, doesn't show emotion at all, doesn't get sarcasm, zero social skills, talks about her special interests and that is about it, doesn't really know what I even do for a job as just no interest.

I never thought about the fostering that way. How very sinister. I keep asking my mum why they fostered and it changes everytime and she froze a bit when I asked her.

I will defo read the website. I want to read everything!

In therapy right now but prob something more specific to this issue might be more helpful.

Certainly going to do better for my daughter and anymore children we are blessed with! Being a mummy is heaven on earth for me, it's very healing too, and I feel I am an instinctive mother, I am confident I am putting a stop to the trauma!

failinghard · 30/07/2022 19:49

@LoveToWearADress I also love to wear a dress so ditto! It's really good to hear your experience and sorry it's been so up and down. It's brilliant you still have that connection and that they helped you explore your interests.

My brother and Dad still have a good connection, even though I think my Dad is very toxic. Very negative and yes judges people so harshly. He has a very rigid way of thinking and it's very black and white, eg what is wrong and what is right... I always fall into the category of wrong. I am basically 'a problem' because of stuff he considers I have done wrong rather than 'who' I am. I thought after I had a kid and got married that he would be supportive and accepting of me but no. He is just so angry.

It's defo not the neuro diversity that is to blame in this, or even the abuse they themselves suffered, ultimately being cruel is a choice. I do remember feeling like I was the odd one out in the family, like I did not communicate in the same way. I'd say I was a very sensitive and emotional child which prob made it even harder for them to fathom.

Oh yes will do a name change - good idea @AttilaTheMeerkat

AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/07/2022 20:28

Their childhoods are the reason why they are as they are and it’s not your fault. Their parents were abusive too but your parents had a choice when it came to you and your sibling, they chose to abuse and mete out similar to you both. They have not changed since your own childhood. Being cruel is a choice as you rightly state and you have qualities they lack: empathy and insight.

Your brother in turn may be more favoured, he certainly sadly seems more enmeshed with them.

BTW ASD and narcissism are two completely separate things so please, please do not conflate them. The assumed overlap may be more of a symptom correlation than a relationship between the conditions. Neurotypical individuals with narcissism have a tendency to self enhance or have a grandiose view of themselves without thinking of others, and this is a core symptom of the disorder.

Autism is a lifelong developmental disorder and other parts of autism are not part of the narcissism diagnosis. Please educate yourself about ASD from proper based sources like the National Autistic Society.

Your dad is angry because he is abusive, not because he is angry. He remains undiagnosed because he is in all likelihood not on any autism spectrum. Narcissistic people can often adopt black and white thinking like you describe of them too. It’s not your fault you were supposedly too sensitive and emotional for them (you were neither really) and you were but a child at the time. Again it’s not you, it’s them.

Btw your mother is very much like my MIL day to day and she is certainly a narcissist.

I look forward to seeing your new name change😀

OP posts:
failinghard · 30/07/2022 20:44

@AttilaTheMeerkat oh yes sorry if I didn't make it clear, I know there's no correlation between narcissism and ASD, more that some of the manifestations can appear similar in some people eg black and white thinking. I guess in my head I am trying to figure out what his motivations are eg does he enjoy hurting me or is it something he cannot help / or doesn't know he is doing...

I sympathise with your MIL - really not fun to be around!

AttilaTheMeerkat · 30/07/2022 21:09

Am so very glad to read your comments.

He enjoys the power and control he's had over you from childhood onwards. He may well have liked you when you were very small because you were "easier" to control and or otherwise manipulate. As you grew up and started to have opinions of your own and different from his he did not like it one bit. He knows what he is doing here re you and he does not care one bit about you at all.

BTW what your dad said to you on your wedding day of all days resonated with me. My dad advised me to get married in this country on a Thursday because then no-one would come!. His shite attempt at humour here fell flat. We had anyway decided to get married abroad and pay for the ceremony ourselves.

Your and your own family unit need to stay well away from your parents from now on and have no contact of any sort with them.

OP posts:
LoveToWearADress · 30/07/2022 22:33

Hi @failinghard you've had some great advice here from @AttilaTheMeerkat but I just wanted to add, when people have been that cruel to you, it's not down to you to try to understand them. They don't deserve it. The best thing you can do is move on from all of them. I know how difficult that can seem, so choose your way of doing that - you don't need to announce it or even make a big statement to yourself that you're going to do it. Just slip away, stop answering their calls, don't send them a card at Christmas. Pack your imaginary rucksack and close the door quietly behind you. Live your life with your own family ... and keep searching for the right therapy if this one isn't working. I've found EMDR with a trauma & ND informed therapist really helpful.

Goosegoosedick · 01/08/2022 21:29

I’ve just spoken to my parent for the first time since I got back from the visit I cut short. They have come down with a stress related illness, which is my fault and they’ve asked me not to speak to them for a couple of weeks.

This has happened before and I used to cry when they blamed me. I didn’t this time, but I do feel guilty because the illness is probably down to our relationship.

How is everyone else doing?

Escapingafter50years · 01/08/2022 23:32

@Goosegoosedick Please try not to feel guilty, I know that's easier said than done though. These people were adults when you were born, but they are laying their woes on you rather than taking any responsibility. Asking you not to speak to them for a couple of weeks is their idea of a punishment. Who would you treat like this? Why would you treat anyone like this? And why would you accept it from anyone?

I'm one year NC this week from my bitch of a "mother" who never lifted a finger to help me, yet told me if I had been a proper mother she would have a better relationship with her grandchildren. She has actually never taken responsibility for anything she has done wrong. Her side of the family have ostracised me. It hurts but I know people who can treat me like this are not people who I should have in my life. My heart is gradually catching up with how my head feels. I was not brought up to understand that I was entitled to any respect. I'm very resentful that it has taken me so long to realise this basic requirement of a parent was absent, but with the help of regular therapy I will get there.

It sounds like you've had similar abuse and gaslighting to what I experienced. You don't owe anything to people who treat you like this. If they wanted you to look after them in their old age they should have treated you properly.

Goosegoosedick · 02/08/2022 08:42

@Escapingafter50years I’m so sorry you’ve been through so much. I had never thought about being entitled to respect, it’s a complete eye opener as it has made me realise they gave never treated me with respect, let alone made me feel worthy of it from others.

After being blamed for their ill health again last night, I googled their condition and it turns out that it is not stress related AT ALL. I feel sick as they have used this particular condition to manipulate me for decades, blaming me for any “flare up”. I feel like I must have made a mistake, because that is twisted on a completely new level, which I am not prepared for.

TomAllenWife · 03/08/2022 11:26

Hi, I am a long time poster with a recent name change.
Have suffered my narc mother for 49 years now and we're at a point now where we have no regular contact other than cards on birthdays & Xmas.

I was fairly low contact but last year she asked me to ask my DP (of 3.5 years) to buy her a new boiler and said she would leave him money in her will to pay it back (she has no money because she's spent every bit including equity release)

I said I wanted her to get a 2nd opinion re boiler and that she needed to find out what government help was available as she was on pension credit. I also offered to give her a £500 deposit.

She refused this saying she wanted a new boiler NOW!

I said please don't even ask me to ask Tom Allen for money again. She replied saying 'don't worry I won't ask you for anything ever again' and since then she hasn't spoken to me.

I know I should be grateful for the peace but DP thinks I should build bridges and that he wants to help her out financially over the winter months 🙄. I have refused this saying she will just see him as a cash cow and it'll become more and more.

I don't know what I'm asking? It's weird that she doesn't want any contact with me or GCs anymore.
She's back with her awful boyfriend and has cut us off completely.
I've had some health problems this year and would've loved a mum to talk to and get support from but realistically I know she would've made it about her and she'll never be the mother I need

Any wise words would be greatly appreciated.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 03/08/2022 11:47

Hi TomAllenwife

I would cease sending any Christmas and birthday cards to her; the fact you still do is all part of the conditioning/buttons of fear, obligation and guilt she installed in you from a young age. You're not getting anything out of any form of contact with her other than a lot of hassle and blowback.

Re your comments in quote marks;
"I was fairly low contact but last year she asked me to ask my DP (of 3.5 years) to buy her a new boiler and said she would leave him money in her will to pay it back (she has no money because she's spent every bit including equity release)".

I will use a MN term to describe her here - she is a barefaced CF (cheeky fucker!). The bit about her leaving money to him in her will is also a barefaced lie. Do not forget either that such people can and do use money/wills to further control their chosen targets, in this case both you and your DP. She will likely further target him.

"I said I wanted her to get a 2nd opinion re boiler and that she needed to find out what government help was available as she was on pension credit".

Fair enough but that is where the call should have ended.

"I also offered to give her a £500 deposit"

WHY????!!!!!. Why did you offer this at all?. I know why though; its because you are still very much trained and or conditioned by her to put her first with your needs and wants dead last. That £500 would have been money you would never have seen again. And why should your hard earned cash be spent on her?. Would you have tolerated this from a friend?. Your mother is no different.

"She refused this saying she wanted a new boiler NOW!"
Bullet dodged by you.

It is really not possible to have any sort of a relationship with a narcissist.

Why is your DP so blind re your mother here given how she has behaved to you and him?. Unfortunately some people just do not get it at all even if explained to them. He has not come across the likes of your mother before and therefore thinks bridges can be built!. 🙄. He is an ideal target for someone like your mother to use. Is he really that naive to think that all other parents and or relatives are nice and kind just because his mother and all his family of origin are nice too?. You cannot afford for him to be used by your mother as a "flying monkey" but she can and will further try to use him to get back at you. What was his response to your remarks about him merely being used by her as a cash cow?.

OP posts:
TomAllenWife · 03/08/2022 14:53

Oh I 100% know that she would play the victim to DP and make out that I was evil, cold, unloving etc etc

DP is not one to be taken for a fool, he runs a successful business. But I know he imagines her sitting there freezing through the winter.

DPs mother is far from perfect from what he's told me over the years, however she is very loving and not self cantered at all and just wants the best for everyone else, unlike my mother.
DPs mum always tells me she loves me without expecting anything in return, it's lovely

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