April 2022 - well we took you to Stately Homes

[AttilaTheMeerkat]

It’s April 2022 and the Stately Home is still open to all comers.

Your grandmother is a part of this dysfunctional dynamic and furthermore created it. She is frail too because she is old but it’s still no excuse for how she has behaved. I would not let her entirely off the hook here because of her past behaviour as a flying monkey. Such people really do not have your interests at heart.

Uts not you, it’s them.

@Justrealised ha ha! I’m not sure if they would, I’ve always been guilt tripped into helping again before it has ever gone that far

So, I have one very straight forward question I would appreciate if you could answer. How is your NPD mother/parents with your children? I have read some horror stories. My mother has always tried to turn people against me, make up life-ruining lies about me and tried to destroy my reputation and credibility in every single way. I am terrified of what she could possibly do if she had access to my child, without revealing too much information. My biggest fear would be her trying to undermine my position as mother, make out I am an unfit mother, or turn my child against me.

If this woman doesn't deserve a place in your life, she definitely doesn't deserve a place in your child's life. I've only recently begun to realise how badly I have been abused by my excuse for a mother all my life, so when I felt her behaviour with my children was off, I thought it must be me - because I was brought up to feel that everything that was wrong in my mother's life was not her fault and I should fix it.
She would act pleased to see my children but get fed up after a few minutes. When my daughter was going through puberty she pinched her waist and made a comment about putting on a few pounds. She was dismissive of my son and accused him of bad behaviour even though he always got high marks in school for behaviour, attendance, uniform etc. as well as academic achievement.
My husband was often working when she visited so missed a lot of it, but all the same she had him fooled for a long time, and I was fooled for, well look at my username. I wish, wish, wish I had cut her off 30 years ago, the difference in my life would have been huge and I could have started to repair the damage she did to me back then.

If your mother was a "friend" or neighbour, would you stay in a relationship with her?
Just because someone is family doesn't mean they have a right to be in your life.
Why would someone who cares about you try to turn other people against you, destroy your reputation and tell such lies about you? Even if you were a "troubled" person, how would this be an appropriate way to behave towards a child you brought into this world? A normal, loving parent would be supportive, not destructive.

Your mother is a very damaged person. But that is her problem to solve, not yours.
You need to look after yourself and your child and don't feel guilty about it. It sounds like the first step is to have little to no contact with this excuse for a mother.
Keep posting here, sadly there are too many people who have suffered similarly, but the upside is you can get great support and advice.

It helps me to visualise the dysfunctional person in my life a specific animal with specific traits and risks. So for instance a scorpion or a hyena - it’s only an matter of time before they act out as per their nature - to sting or attack. They can’t help it, they have evolved to have these traits and it’s never an “if” but always a “when” they will lash out.

For me that answers the Q about should your DC be in their lives - No …. because that’s who / what they are - too much risk you wouldn’t leave your child unattended with a scorpion or hyena.

@DFOD @AttilaTheMeerkat @Sicario @Sconeface @TheNewlmprovedMrsMadEvans @IAAP

Success. It was a lovely day. Me and OH got stuck in and mixed with so many people, including DSis new husband’s side of the family. Everyone was saying how we are a lovely couple and seem so happy, my mum told me aunties and uncles we’d not seen in years had been singing our praises and incidentally we’ve been invited round to 3 different houses for dinner just through getting on with people. DSis was really rude to OH as was expected. He congratulated her and BIL so many times, BIL was over the moon and thanked everyone for the well wishes but DSis continued to snub. She wouldn’t dance in a circle with me, my partner and our nan because it was me and my partner holding nan’s hands. Two of her friends and an older couple in our family saw her look us up and down and they looked really confused and were frowning. She is pregnant too - that was the news she was trying to tell me the other day.

Happy days, we joined in

@chatterbug22 - phew! Well done, well handled, and well out of it!

@Sierra1961 I did try and allow my parents in once I had my kids but there were a number of issues. First, no boundaries so any news or information about the kids was spread to all and sundry with no privacy filter. Second, constant demands for photos (again to spread around). No actual interest in engaging with them, they were just there as decoration.
Parents (DM) also started with little snide remarks to/about them. And as previous posters have said, the realisation that if they treat me like this, they will definitely treat them the same, and it's my job to protect them.
It's hard. Mine occasionally ask when we are going to see them and talk about "funny" grandpa is cos he chased them round the house....the same grandpa who drinks to the point of passing out, calls everyone a bastard and encourages and joins in with abuse to me from my DM.
I think @DFOD has it spot on in terms of how you need to approach engagement.

@chatterbug22 The gods were smiling on you! It's interesting to see that other people possibly picked up on her behaviour, the mask must have slipped a few times. In terms of her news, is anyone else thinking this will give DSis another x months of shit behaviour that you will have to ignore "cos pregnancy hormones"?
What are your plans now in terms of distancing yourself? Is this something you want to do?

@Escapingafter50years I find it really interesting so many of us on this have to reach nearly the 50 mark before we realise we don't have to put up with it, and that seems to be the case for both men and women on here. Definitely for me, I just look back on the last number of years of events and things ruined and if I had only decided earlier how different could things have been. At least it shows and decision to disengage has not been done lightly, it's been with decades of thought behind it.

@Missisipihallelujah
So cruel and deliberate. Not you, it’s them. All that abuse takes a toll. Venting is fine. I’ve vented for three years about my uttterly vile MIL - The Hag. And got loads of support! What you describe is awful - especially the time when you lost your husband. NO words. And money and loans, this is often used for control purposes. Nice power trip, often. The Hag screams a ton of abuse in the phone at my DP and then - get this - puts envelopes of tenners through the letter box. Like that makes it better. DP spends it on therapy!

@TreePoser
sorry for what you’ve endured. It’s exhausting. You have found your support here.

@LoveToWearADress
Welcome. Write whatever you want here. Self-criticism is a result of constantly being undermined. If you could do counselling or read around rebuilding self-esteem, it helps immeasurably. Mr Monkey has done this and is rebuilding his non-existent self esteem which is a consequence of abuse by his vile mother (The Hag) and family.
Your mum’s terrible childhood is not your fault. It’s no justification for poor behaviour or making you an accessory to games with other people.

@TheNewlmprovedMrsMadEvans

How great you have the backup of your partner. Easy to feel mad. My MIL The Hag does the head thing like a child. We just ignore it now. She moves from screaming like a banshee to being a child. You’re not weak, but manipulated.

@Sconeface
Love the £ story. I bet that made you feel warm inside. You are so right to not expose your kids to your family.

@noirchatsdeux hello! Wise advice and thoughts as always. X

@Goosegoosedick
Do not feel guilty. It’s hard to jettison the emotion, I know. I’m not surprised you feel upset and hurt after enduring that. I think narcs get worse with age. So entitled.
It goes get easier when you build up self belief. It’s worth repeating all the time: it’s them, NOT you.

@Justrealised sorry to hear this. It sounds very much like your gran is used as a channel. Does she live far away? I’d definitely try and visit with DH riding shotgun so arrange it when he’s free if you can?

@Escapingafter50years
You are 190% right about the question: would I accept this from a friend/partner? I think people programmed to sometimes accept that abuse from friends and partner as a legacy from family abuse, but checking in with yourself confirms what we know: it’s abuse. I know with regard to my toxic MIL aka the Hag that I would have left her for dust as a teenager. It’s taken my partner 53 years to see it for what it is. It is like being brainwashed.

@DFOD the animal analogy is fabulous. The nickname The Hag has really helped me.

@chatterbug22
Ffs re Hot Tub-gate. Her bridesmaids were toeing the line and I bet she controls them as Queen Bee just as she’s trying to with you. Friends don’t owe her anything. They’ll cotton on. Just because she’s your sister, you don’t either.

What great news that the wedding OK. She must HATE it that your partner was really liked and welcomed. She’s jealous of what you have with him. Wonder how genuinely happy she is in her relationship? I’d steer well clear of pregnancy hormones as it will be an excuse for abuse.

all good here. My SIL is down in two weeks. Be great to see her and my nephews. It will involve a meal with The Hag - ONE meal. The lovely restaurant where we go used to give us a big round table, but I’ll request a rectangle so I can sit as far away from her as possible. I have no desire to see her or listen to her moaning or spite. I’ll concentrate on the people who matter to me.

Mr Monkey has done so well from his counselling. It’s made a huge difference. So proud of him.

Hi 👋🏻 back @MonkeyfromManchester

I've been in and out of counselling for years. I was also recently diagnosed as on the spectrum and looking at both parents through that lens has helped me to find tolerance and forgiveness. But I feel sad for my younger self. I was very vulnerable and quirky and was basically told to suck it up. The therapy has taught me that I've never thought of my own needs or selfhood and as an autistic person you can go for a very long time without recognising things that you need. For example things as simple as hunger or cold don't affect me the same way. I can work and stay focused on things for hours to the detriment of my health and wellbeing so work and school have been relatively safe spaces for me as I 'do well at work' but home was tricky. However I am fairly sure both my parents are autistic which would explain their 'frozenness'. I know it sounds like I'm making excuses for them but they do try, it's just not always appropriate or consistent. I often adopted their obsessions and as a result as a child I was very well read and knowledgeable about some fairly niche subjects. I still revel in minute knowledge of some topics and it can bring me great pleasure

DM called me today and told me that she thinks she is emotionally immature. She doesn't know what to do about it. It made me quite sad because this time I didn't rush in and suggest all the things she could do to help herself. But also quite proud of myself because I told her that the power to change was in her hands and I really meant it. ie I didn't think for a moment it was up to me to change her or to 'fix' her

@LoveToWearADress good on for you for realising it’s not your responsibility and passes it back to your mum. Be really proud. Xxx

i spoke too soon. 😂

The Hag rang Mr Monkey at work. He has a demanding job working with vulnerable people. She doesn’t care about this. She wants instant responses because she’s been stewing over something. She has cut herself off from people so has no one to talk to and stews in her lair, and, therefore, her sons are viewed as “responsible” FFS.

No hello, how are you?

Hag launches straight into “when are THEY coming down?” They is SIL and nephews. Charming.

Hag DOES know when they are coming.

MM gives the dates. Two weeks hence.

“what are we doing with them?” Lovely.

MM: “we’re going out for dinner?”

”is it dead posh?” Jibe at me and my fancy ways.

”no, you’ve been there before and you liked it”

”well, I don’t remember (selective memory) and it’s very expensive, I bet” further jibe. On the night, she will get out her wallet and pay to demonstrate what an amazing mother/grandmother she is.

”it’s a nice Italian restaurant and we’ll divide the bill”

”I’ve got nothing to wear” She looks like a tramp. This one runs and runs. 😂

MM: “we’ve offered loads of times to take you shopping (we does not include me or my mum anymore)”

Hag: “I hate shopping.”

MM: “or we could choose things online and get clothes that way”

”no, I don’t want to”

”OK.”

”well, I won’t come then”

”OK, that’s your choice”.

“what did I wear last time?” Oh, she’s remembered she’s been there before.

”a jumper that Mummy Monkey bought you for Xmas and you were cold so you borrowed a jacket from Monkey”

She hates getting presents from the people she begrudges. We don’t bother any more. Waste of money. Let’s face it - it’s a couple of bottles of wine. 😂😂😂 She tried to take the jacket. 😂 and the handbag I lent her. I got those back.

Then changing subject back to abusive guilt shit.

“you don’t want me to come”

”well, it’s a shame you don’t want to see your family, but that’s your choice”

More needling. Ignored.

Hag slams the phone down at someone like her own abused son aged 53 now DARING to push back and now having boundaries.

He doesn’t ring her.

She rings back later in the afternoon to “apologise”. This is supposed to elicit MM begging for her to come. He doesn’t. We both know it’s a plastic apology.

He comes home with wine. We laugh at her latest. And he doesn’t phone her as he once would have done in his role as peacemaker.

The clothes thing will run and run but he’ll grey rock her. And I don’t give a fucking fuck.

I had a moment of thinking I’ll pick something up for her from Sainsburys, but what’s the point? I owe her FUCK ALL. She would moan about the quality as if she shopped haute couture.

The meal on 15 August and then I don’t see her til Xmas. JOY.

@MonkeyfromManchester that sounds exhausting. So good your DH is able to move on from each situation as it arises. I can't imagine the guilt of a DM who doesn't let you help them. I think my DM would accept practical help if she needed it. That's actually the thing she's best at ... give her a task and she'll do it. She just can't talk about feelings or anything difficult. I tried to talk about some of my worries today and she changed the subject to my stepdad's family do that she's going to next week.

@LoveToWearADress it’s exhausting. He’s done so well to stop his part in the patterns. She was and is a shit mother. Unlike your mum, she wouldn’t even do a practical task for anyone. She used to like errands for neighbours as part of the saintly image. It is all about her from whatever angle we look at it.

Thank you @MonkeyfromManchester my self belief is miles ahead of where it used to be, hence being able to leave. I realise now that none of this is my fault. Your partner is lucky to have you btw.

@Justrealised how are you feeling today?

@Goosegoosedick good on you! X that’s brilliant and it’s hard to achieve.

I am so sorry you have to deal with this but as PP have said, your DH is so lucky to have you. Support from intimate partners and having them believe 'your side of the story' can really change your life

@chatterbug22 l am so happy for you. Been thinking about you all weekend 💐
@MonkeyfromManchester
Yes l know l am so fortunate to have such a supportive DH bless his heart ❤️
Your DH is doing so well especially with the not phoning back after the Hag has performed 👏👏👏

@MonkeyfromManchester your dh sounds like he's doing amazingly well (I've followed your posts for a while). I hope the meal goes OK and you enjoy your time with ds znd nephews. My gran lives about a 45 min drive away, I spoke to my dB and he says my dm isn't staying there full time so It should be possible to go without dm being there. I know my gran is intertwined with dm but I think I have to make the effort for my own peace if anything should happen.

@Goosegoosedick thank you. I'm OK, speaking to my dB helped as he knows what dm is like. That realisation of it not being your fault is huge.

I'm so happy that the wedding went well.

Could I have some advice and hear people's experiences on explaining NC with mother to my DD please.

My mother is much like most people's on this thread, emotionally abusive, scapegoating bully with her own complex issues and zero insight thoughout my childhood and on into adulthood (I'm 41 now).

I've been NC for 3 (largely blissful) years. My DD is 4 and a half. I didn't go NC before due to fear of loosing my relationship with my dad, but he died when I was pregnant, but I still held off going NC due to FOG tied in with grief plus feeling utterly exhausted due to hyperemesis.

My mother finally pushed me over the edge when DD was 18 months.

It's all been great up to now, and DD thought PIL were my mum and dad as well (awww!!), but she now understands relationships and family structures better, and the questions are coming thick and fast, and I'm really struggling.

It generally goes something like...

Mum, who is your mum?

Where does she live?

Why was she mean to you (she had already grasped that I don't see her due to her being mean)?

Was she mean to you when you were little?

Why was she mean to you when you were little?

You get the idea!!

Help!!

My dB called me today to say that my mum had called him to say my gran is dying, she's now bedridden and not eating. I asked him if he was going to see her znd he said he wants to do I'm hopefully going to visit her with him tomo.

I called my gran (I spoke to her a few days ago) and my mum answered. She said my grN was asleep. She asked when i would come. I asked if she thought it would be too late to visit tomorrow and she said she didnt know. She started crying saying that she'd asked everyone to go but nobody has she got very upset said id probably be sst outside in my car when it happens like i was with my dad znd grandad (both, i had spent lots of time with before they passed but was just arriving as they died) and put the phone down.

I the got a message from my great uncle saying he wishes I would make friends as he thinks its silky and that my gran would like to see my children. I didn't reply.

I can't take my youngest, he wouldn't understand ag all. I've given my eldest the choice.

I really don't want to go on my own but I'm scared I'll be too late if I wait for my brother.

"My dB called me today to say that my mum had called him to say my gran is dying, she's now bedridden and not eating. I asked him if he was going to see her znd he said he wants to do I'm hopefully going to visit her with him tomo".

If you do go there tomorrow keep the visit short and go with your brother if possible.

I am not at all suggesting your nan is not unwell but how does your mother know that your gran/her mother is dying?. The short answer here is she does not and its likely she is not as unwell as has been made out. Also your nan is presumably not in hospital nor seemingly has an ambulance been called. I think you are being drawn into a web here by other people who are trying to put pressure on you unduly to see her and mainly your mother by hook or by crook. Toxic people can and do use ill health and or illness in other people as a means of controlling others. Your mother's tears could well be designed merely to pull at your heart.

These flying monkeys in the shape of your great uncle in particular have no interest in hearing your side of things so their opinion should be ignored. He has no idea, or interest for that matter, in what you've had to put up with at your mother's hands. He has his own agenda.

@AttilaTheMeerkat thank you, my husband has said the same. I think writing it out helps me to think it through and I’m grateful for your reply especially when I’m questioning myself.

Cyw2018

Keep all explanations to your DD short. Give your DD the age appropriate truth re your mother. Explain in your child’s known frame of reference, and your own situation. Comfort your child if she’s sad about the loss – it is totally understandable that she would be, but know that it’s both your right and responsibility to make this decision. Even, your child might be angry at you, depending on her age. Don’t feel bad for holding to your decision. You are the parent here and she is relying on your good judgment.

You are wise indeed to keep your child away from your mother here given your own childhood and adulthood experience at her hands. As is often written on here as well if a parent or relative is too toxic for you to deal with, its the SAME deal for your child too.