Can’t forgive H for the baby years.

[MountainSun]

H abandoned me big time during the baby years. No other word for it. He’s a workaholic, I’d moved to another country to be with him so I was completely alone. No friends or family, just my overbearing and bullying in-laws.
I had 3 under 3 (one set twins). It was awful. I barely slept for 5 years, I never had a moment alone, I was bullied by his family, I was basically completely on the edge, then found out he’d been having an affair and I ended up having a nervous breakdown.
At this point, he seemed to realise things were not ok. I had told him repeatedly before this point.
He hired a nanny, confronted his family and ended up cutting ties with all but one of them, and promised to be around more. He said it was an emotional affair only - I don’t believe this, they had texted saying they loved each other and he’d been on multiple work trips with her in the same hotel. I’m not thick. I suppose there’s a chance he’s telling the truth….but not a big one.

This was all 4 years ago. Things are better now - he’s tried very hard to make things right, fully accepted blame for what he put me through, and is kind and attentive.

But I just can’t forgive him. It was all bad but the affair was the proverbial straw. And the whole thing just broke me. I used to be the happiest, most cheerful and positive person you’d meet. Now I’m bitter, miserable, full of resentment and constantly tired.

Had a massive row today because he was complaining about me buying a new bike for one of the kids. I’d bought myself one last month so I can go cycling with them, and at the time he said how nice an idea it was. But since then it’s been constant comments about the cost of the bike. And I just think to myself, after all the fucking shit I went through, and you’re earning £100k a year with no mortgage mainly due to having a fucking drudge at home raising your kids and running all your life admin whilst you gaily built your stupid business up (which I’ve also helped lots with), if I want a nice bike then I’ll fucking have a nice bike.

Instead, I’ve taken a loan out today to pay him back for the bike because I can do without being reminded of the cost of the bike several times a week. He’s predictably said ‘oh no I don’t want your money keep it’ but he’ll bloody have it and much good I hope it does him.

I know I could leave him but we have a nice house here and the kids are happy. He works away most weeks so I muddle along ok. If I leave then we’d be in a much worse house and away from the kids school and friends. It’s never that easy in real life.

But there. Most likely no one will read this but I don’t half feel better for getting it off my chest.

Also I dont know if you have done this already op

But as everyone highlights try to find someone with expertise in psychology as they generally have a more deeper understanding as to why people behave/do things

Also try to find ones that offer a free assessment or free session to begin with. Then you can really get a feel for the person outside of their work and who they are. It also offers a space to give them a run down or your problems and if they are the best for you whilst giving you a run down of how they navigate and interact

I could not not post here and I am also speaking from the position of similar experience.

I agree with some other posters, that the problem is not only anger and the past, the problem is that the reason he was able to behave like he did, is because there is a level of misogyny and disrespect for women in him and it that has not gone away. You keep reacting to it, because very very profoundly inside he has not changed. Accepting you to take a loan to pay him and the cleaner discussion are examples of this. People can be tight and disagree but these are mysogynistic disrespectful responses on his behalf. That's why they bring back memories of when it was really bad.

I honestly think you need to read some feminist literature. Classics, like Adrienne Rich, Of Women Born, for instance.

I also had a husband I could not forgive for baby years and it took me further years to realise how deeply misogynist he was. I realised years later, for instance, that he never said one positive word about women (artists, thinkers, other people's partners). A woman cannot thrive with a man like this. It took me so long to understand it.

Overall, I think the problem is not (only) the past, the problem is that right now a version of the past, albeit not so awful, is still continuing, in its foundation.

Well done for coming back to education! Keep building your career and life that is outside of the family.

I also have an opinion which is just my experience that living like this long term is not possible. I felt there was acid inside me and it would dissolve me alive. It all went away as soon as I left. Also also don't presume he'll have interest in the children. My ex maintained a relationship with his son for a couple of years and then it stopped. Part of the misogyny is that parenting is the mother's job. The father is there just to receive a phone call from the son. If the son doesn't call, it is a bad son. Here we go

I have to say, I never had to use therapy (had no money too). Reading feminist literature helped me. It really is a very classic story of continuing patriarchy.

Yes a lot if issues the OP (and many women) face are basically all down the patriarchy.
Understanding that helped open my eyes and see what was going on. Incl the fact that I wasn’t the ine to blame on a lot if the issues.

What it didn’t do is to help me process the trauma and to build up my self esteem again so I could actually stand up to those patriarchal ‘tactics’ iyswim. That’s where counselling/psychotherapy helped

See a lawyer get informed on your position shoukd you divorce
Information is power

Find a better therapist

miserable and poor mother in a poky house
Kids dont care
You don't need to be miserable or poor
Take the bike and be free

If you're staying, then just do what you want and don't bother telling him. You want a cleaner, get a cleaner and set up the direct debit from the main account. You want new clothes, get them.

If I was in your position which is quite vulnerable not being in your own country, I'd wait until the kids were adults. I'd save copies of all kinds of documentation on his business, the house etc through the years and once the kids leave, send it all to a solicitor and ask for a divorce, take 50% of the house and business and leave the country. Go back home then with probably a lot of money and restart my life. Then he has to restart when older and less women will want him too, an added bonus.

Although I would be tempted to leave him now too and do the same thing, but I'd only do that if I had support back at home.

You sound amazing.

That the bastard has been buried in the garden.

He is low life.
That hasn't changed.

Stop asking for stuff like a cleaner, just do it.

Finish your course in your time.

I'm with @Salmakia, do anything and everything you can to make your life better.

Siphon off money if you can.

Get copies of any and all financials for when you will need them.
Take a keen interest in the business and its details.

Eventually rinse the bastard for everything you can.

He is scum.

You deserve better.
In your own time.

@MountainSun

Thank you so, so much for all the thoughtful and constructive posts. I’ve read every word and I am so grateful not to just see LTB. I genuinely don’t believe it would improve my happiness, just exchange one set of problems for another which would be further out of my control.

He’s not abusive. I have full access to the money as well as my own account. He’s tight but that’s it really. It just really fucking grates on me when I think of the totally disproportionate contribution I have made.

Good example whilst I’m getting it off my chest. Last week I said I’d decided to look into getting a cleaner for a couple of hours once a fortnight. To do the extra jobs, not daily stuff - cleaning out the fridge, washing the inside windows, etc etc. with 3 young kids, a full time uni course and full time hospital shifts on placement, it’s easy to fall behind and I like to try and keep the place clean.
He was appalled at this extravagance, said give me a list and I’ll do it (he would too, but he won’t have time so he won’t) and just kept shaking his head at me saying ‘you’re nuts. A cleaner? A CLEANER!?’ then shaking his head and walking off. Like I’d proposed employing a team of people to comb my hair 3 times a day or something.

And I think yes, a fucking cleaner. I’ll get the cleaner too. I’m not afraid of him. It’s just low level shit that wears me down. And I don’t want him to think badly of me or that I’m lazy etc. Why? Why do I care what he thinks??

Sorry I’m just getting it all off my chest now.

Ok so this is sad. But it's not something you can't overcome.

For me I'd leave the dirt. The voice in my head about "oh the state of them windows" is my aunties and grandmothers. But I'm learning to not sweat the small stuff. I keep a house relatively clean - the big stuff laundry, pots, cooking, vacuuming and cleans sinks/loos/bath. Other stuff? I'd rather read, nap, honestly anything else.

Now if you can't ignore that kind of dirt but you're sure your husband will ignore it then get a cleaner. Just do it. Pay her well. Pay her promptly. Communicate clearly. Job done. Creating a list for him and then managing him each week to complete his cleaning is more work for you. You're not project manager of housework. He's not one of your 3 kids that needs to be given chores. If he legit cannot see what needs doing on his own without you creating a list he never will and you'll be as tired managing him as you are doing it yourself. Aka it's a trap.

So grey rock this issue. "I'm hiring a cleaner. The work needs doing. We are both too busy. I'm too busy to manage you doing it weekly. The cleaner is the solution. We can afford this". And don't deviate. If he sulks let him. Be boring. Be unresponsive. Be a grey rock. You've said what you need. It's not necessary to keep emotionally responding to his attempts to get a rise/belittle you/dismiss your expression of needs. Just grey rock.

With regards to your issues with therapy yeah finding someone good is hard. I have a friend who is trauma informed, actually feminist and decades of experience with psychotherapy. I actually met her through feminism and have been in workshops she's run. Brilliant she is. She does lots of work with women's charities but also private practice. I can pass on her details of needed but ask around the boards on here if you want local for face to face (I'm east midlands). You'll want someone who works from a feminist framework, trauma informed, qualified and experienced. I'm sure you'll find what's right for you. I guess it's like frogs and princes though. There will be a few slimy odd ones before the right fit.

Get the cleaner. He is quite happy for you to run the “home show” whilst he is working away in his big job, so you decide what is necessary to ensure this happens as smoothly as possible. You wouldn’t question his decision on hiring someone at work. You are equals - never forget that. The shaking of the head is to destabilise you and is a bullying tactic, ignore, and crack on. Don’t even let the thought of him thinking you are lazy enter your head again. Nothing would ever be enough for this type, and furthermore it is ok to be lazy, selfish, and put yourself first! With him out of the way, you can concentrate on your DC, raising them with your values and also working towards your future career. Safe proofing you for whatever the future might bring.
I wish you well with whatever you decide

Think what would be a helpful exercise for you OP would be to have a “discreet” consultation with a divorce solicitor about the true financial realities for you - reading your post I don’t think you realise what an advantage you would have if you were to leave your DH…. This may be why he’s been making such an effort. I think it may help consolidate your feelings more for the future x

@Salmakia is right.

Grey rock is your friend there.
His reaction to getting a cleaner is his. Up to
Him to deal with those feelings. It’s not your role to ease them off by agreeing with him etc…,
Just do it, have a cleaner and grey rock anything else

I couldn't forgive all that stuff, too much water under the bridge

I know a few other women reading this are probably going through the same or very similar and could do with resources. I'm not an expert just someone who has got through life so far female! But here's what I can suggest

If you want to engage more in feminism try Filia. They've done consciousness raising sessions at conferences in the past and I know women from all over the country have set up groups locally inspired by it. They can probably link you with women in your area that are active if you email and ask - honestly a real lovely bunch of volunteers. www.filia.org.uk/

If you think your relationship is more than just crappy and is abusive please seek support from womens aid. Many of their staff are experts by experience so will have been where you are and then later been trained and are now supporting the past versions of them! You'll find understanding and proper qualified help www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/

A lot of women here have said reading feminist literature helped them. Me too! You can find all of Andrea Dworkin's work free online here, some of it is very harrowing so read with caution - it will change your life. www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/OnlineLibrary.html?fbclid=IwAR1BAnkThha4imWE3WnIlKoByUbn0N4bGEekdlo-VJ9IhIDuKsTz77bnjNw

Other reading I would recommend this blog - an excellent UK based Black radical feminist sisteroutrider.wordpress.com/ and your local library! So many are at risk of closure so please use them or lose them. If they don't have the book you're looking for ask about an interlibrary loan. Librarians are magicians and will do everything they can to help you read and learn.

Thanks for the replies.
I absolutely agree that this is a feminist issue, and tbh I think that’s why it makes me extra angry. It’s not my fault. To a degree, it’s not his fault. It’s patriarchy in action, and once you’ve seen it, I think you can never unsee it, and as a woman that leaves you with a degree of anger at every little bit of misogyny you encounter.

H agrees with my feminist principles, although it took a while to get him to see it. When I explained to him that I was only going to uni because he had allowed it, as the male in my life, I think that’s when he got it. If he hadn’t supported it and agreed to fund childcare, it wouldn’t have happened. And that’s why it doesn’t happen for most women.

He’s not perfect but he’s basically a good person, and he really does try. Always apologises when he’s wrong. And he loves me, and I suppose I love him. So that’s why I stay I suppose.

I won't live with a shit man I've divorced two of them. But I have a career and my own home. You need to be clever and work out your future life before you leave.

No good person begrudges you a nice bicycle when the family can afford it.
He is turning on nice because you do everything and run the household like a maid
He doesn't want to lose that
Apologies are cheap

Read your op again.
It took him 5 years
5 years you slogged and he had an affair

But he still beating you up now with his snide comments on your bike etc . You stay he gets away with it by being a nice sometimes bully.

barely slept for 5 years, I never had a moment alone, I was bullied by his family, I was basically completely on the edge, then found out he’d been having an affair and I ended up having a nervous breakdown.

Tbh it sounds like the healthiest thing would be for you to leave.

I understand why you don’t want to, and if you are determined to stay, you have to find out the best way to do it. By that I mean the way in which makes you happy or at least minimises bitterness and anger.

I would be looking at other counsellors or joint therapy. You clearly, and understandably have not been able to get past his affair. If he is now 99% good, and you can find a way to live with his affair where it doesn’t rear it’s head anytime is is a bit tight, or annoying in other ways, you will hopefully be able to find some happiness.

God, this is a glimpse into the future, not all of it but the resentment is brewing for me too. My husband in two years has never done a bedtime/naptime, or bathtime, or a night waking.

About to have our second child and I am dreading it because I can see its just going to be years and years of him trying to get out of the tough stuff.

I honestly want to have this baby and drive off into the distance and not come back sometimes.

@fmac2987 you should. My second baby with an entitled selfish man was the straw that broke the camel's back. With one child it can be easiest to just do it all yourself. Easier than the negotiations that would be required to get any kind of split.

i get shouted down for this opinion on mumsnet but the only way to highlight how little these men do do anything is to make them responsible for one child. Divide up the rooms in the house. He cleans the bathroom you clean the kitchen. He does laundry for himself and 'his' (designated) child. You do laundry for yourself and baby. You do shopping for sunday to wednesday when the food runs out, his turn. You do dinners sun to wed. Nothing for dinner Thurs - sat I bet. Don't react.

But even that, although you may be doing less shopping, cooking and laundry, the house will be a mess, there will be no clean clothes for the child he's responsible for, there'll be no food half the week, He will still be angry because it has been HIGHLIGHTED that he does not do half.

@fmac2987

God, this is a glimpse into the future, not all of it but the resentment is brewing for me too. My husband in two years has never done a bedtime/naptime, or bathtime, or a night waking.

About to have our second child and I am dreading it because I can see its just going to be years and years of him trying to get out of the tough stuff.

I honestly want to have this baby and drive off into the distance and not come back sometimes.

Don't have more children. It really is that simply.

Start planning your options without him.
Stop doing anything for him.

Start putting money away.
Start keeping copies of financials.

Plan obviously to be in work.

Detach from him.

Life is largely miserable with these wasters.

They certainly don't love their partners and children in any real sense of the word.

So protecting yourself is all you can do.

How women continue to have sex with men like this is genuinely beyond me.

They really are the ultimate vagina shrivellers IMO.

I think the birth of the second child is the vagina shriveller. Before dc2 I did find it easier to just do it all myself without ever asking or even expecting him to do anything, but the second child meant I was outnumbered.
My x was financially abusive too, he combed through my credit card bill and asked what was this, what was that, and heaven help me if I couldn't remember. It was impossible to save any money.

I had a few methods. I don't know if m&s will still do this but 20 years ago if you bought things on a card and then brought if back, they'd give you cash which you could put in your savings.