To think FWB is a load of old BX

[Llandings]

There's another thread on here - some poor woman is being regaled by a bunch of the usual headmistressy-so-called-feminists coming out, to berate her - you knew the rules, you broke the rules!!!

Er, what rules would them be?

In the old days, not even that bloody long ago, there were all kinds of relationships - marriage, living together, casual, flings, etc. People negotiated them.

But this completely made up Contract "FWB" that you can't "break" by having expectations, desires, feelings, etc - in fact be being a human being - its completely bizarre. Inhuman in fact.

I was also thinking "Benefits" always came with the worst job advertisements, I noticed, to make up for how essentially boring and rubbish they were. Finallky, a "friend" would never use you for sex as an add-on. And mutually using people for sex is no better.

Sorry, I had to get this "out there"! I'm so sick of hearing FWB. Totally imported from the US. Cynical and inhuman approach.

IMOhSoHO it must be said.

FWB should be just normal friends who happen to have sex occasionally.

This in spades.

If it didn't start as friendship; if you're not actually friends then you can't be friends with anything.

It's not a euphemism for casual, no strings sex. Its not the same as meeting someone on a dating site and one of you not being ready for a relationship but being quite happy to shag the other until someone better comes along. It's not hoping it turns into something else. It's not doing 'datey' stuff without commitment and it's not really sporadic contact that only happens when you arrange a hook up.

It's a friendship. A genuine, actual friendship.

I don't form attachments after having sex. That's never happened to me. So the whole 'catching feelings' after sex doesn't apply to all women.

Sex in a relationship is different. Eg my boyfriend likes to cuddle after sex. I wouldn't do that with an fwb. I wouldn't want to - I wouldn't feel the desire or the need. It would have felt a bit weird tbh.

@Redglitter

The whole thing is demeaning con-trick

Rubbish!!

My FWB is a friend who I get on well with, have amazing sex with but have no interest in as a partner. I'm not being conned. I have an arrangement with someone that suits us both.

I really object to the idea that so many people have that either I'm secretly I'm love with him.or I'm being used. Neither is true

I don't know why it's so hard to understand that why some people don't want a relationship they do want sex

This in spades.

I'm finding this thread quite judgey and unpleasant. We should be long past the days when women shamed other women for enjoying consensual sex, but apparently not.

@Thewindwhispers

Yanbu.

I think when women say FWB, what they usually mean is a man they’d love to be in a relationship with, but who doesn’t admire/like them enough to date them, but he is willing to have affectionless sex with them occasionally, on his timetable, with no commitment, while he looks around for someone better. And the woman puts up with it telling herself she is cool and this is what she wants while secretly hoping he’ll fall in love with her.

Christ. Grow up.

@TheGreatATuin

I'm finding this thread quite judgey and unpleasant. We should be long past the days when women shamed other women for enjoying consensual sex, but apparently not.

Absolutely. The attitude that women are lying to themselves and others about their interest in casual sex is particularly abhorrent.

I have had a FWB over the years, they have not been quite as clinical as 'sex only'. We probably only saw each other once a month, would hook up for drinks and spend the night together. While there was a strong physical connection and we could make each other laugh there were also several factors that we both knew would be an obstacle to an actual relationship. We both kept each other separate from our respective social lives, it was just us who who were aware of the situation. It worked fine, no disrespect, no poor manners, neither one of us wanting more.

"Christ. Grow up"

A mature remark!.

Reading mumsnet for a few weeks would leave you in no doubt that it happens as @thewindwhispers says, and often enough.

If you'd made it work for you, you made it work for you. Well done. But that's all.

Been in that situation myself once and im lucky it was only once it seems so prevalent.

Women aren't being shamed, they're being asked to consider first, on whose agenda is this? How much control do I have here? Will I have to fit in around the spaces in his schedule?

I am not about shaming women. Kristen neff phd, christopher germer phd, brene brown, john bradshaw, dr joseph brugo, read their best work on shame. I hope i have not shamed a woman for having her own agenda, but the forgotten question in this crock of shit we've been sold is What is your agenda? And is this serving it.

Shaming women is not for me. Asking women to think about their own agenda / goal is for me.

In fact, the only shaming ive seen is women shamed for believing that an fwb m8ght leave room for respect, communication or decency.

That is the "shaming" I see.

IheartJKRowling....I wish there was a like button on here, totally agree with you. IheartJKRowling too

The Problem with what a lot of people describe as friends with benefits is that it often sounds very much like a relationship but with the commitment or exclusivity and often someone then develops feelings.

Reading mumsnet for a few weeks would leave you in no doubt that it happens as @thewindwhispers says, and often enough.

And as it is often pointed out using the Mumsnet boards as some kind of accurate barometer on the state of the nation's relationship health is a bit daft. People mostly come here to complain and seek advice, not to brag about how awesome everything is in their lives.

In the old days, not even that bloody long ago, there were all kinds of relationships - marriage, living together, casual, flings, etc. People negotiated them

I mean, I think this is still the case.

I've never felt FWB would work for me personally, but it does for some.

It comes under the "all kinds of relationships which people negotiate" umbrella, surely.

As with anything, communication of boundaries and mutual consent are the key.

whose agenda is this?
Mine? Both of ours? This doesn't make sense.There isn't an 'agenda' other than two people enjoying each other's company.

How much control do I have here?
All of it. That's why I like it.

Will I have to fit in around the spaces in his schedule?
Well, yes. And he has to fit round mine. If he's got stuff on Friday and I've got plans on Saturday, we see each other on Sunday. We find time that works for both of us. That's how friendships work.

Do you really think this is about women waiting around at home, waiting desperately for his phone call and dropping everything when he calls?
Because that's not it at all. It's the complete opposite. The reason it's great is because it works around my life and my schedule, as well as his. He respects my life and time, as I respect his.
This is simply enjoyable, consensual sex with a friend. Neither of us have an 'agenda' or have some kind of master plan to just use the other for sex while keeping them at arms length or to try get them into a relationship via sex.
It's just not that complicated.

@Kbyodjs

The Problem with what a lot of people describe as friends with benefits is that it often sounds very much like a relationship but with the commitment or exclusivity and often someone then develops feelings.

Indeed.

Like many relationships, it's often not negotiated well and often breaks down because of a lack of communication.

Sometimes it does work for some people and good on them. Each to their own.

I think there's rarely truth in such a blanket statement - "This NEVER works" - it's obvious OP has just been burned by it not going well, but everyone is different.

TheGreatATuin

You are clearly suffering from internalised misogyny or something. Seek counseling.

@Kbyodjs

The Problem with what a lot of people describe as friends with benefits is that it often sounds very much like a relationship but with the commitment or exclusivity and often someone then develops feelings.

I think the problem is that there is now this concept of ' FWB' and the concept causes the problem. It leads some women to believe that they should want to have a sexual 'friendship' with no commitment, and that they will be cool with that and not suffer feelings of jealousy and insecurity or develop feelings that means they want a relationship.

Some women will be ok with that. And PP on this thread and the other have clearly articulated where they were in a position of strength and security to make that work: it was already a friendship, they were clear that they had made a positive choice (not a circumstantial one) not want a relationship in their life, they felt they could do better than their FWB partner when they were ready for a real relationship and so on.

But once the concept of FWB is popular, and women start to feel social pressure to be 'ok' as this as part of their liberated, progressive identity, then you can see how women who are not in such secure places end up getting hurt. And you can certainly see how, in a misogynistic society, there are men who will be certainly keen to take advantage of the FWB concept and use it to stop women from complaining about how shittily they are treating them.

I've always been a cynic of the many 'identities' out there, but these threads have made me understand the value of the 'demi-romantic' one. It gives the language for young women to opt out of all this, without being stigmatised as a 'prude.'

I should say I have also known men hurt by this. It is not true that all men just want meaningless sex. Both sexes are evolved to pair-bond.

@Thewindwhispers

Yanbu.

I think when women say FWB, what they usually mean is a man they’d love to be in a relationship with, but who doesn’t admire/like them enough to date them, but he is willing to have affectionless sex with them occasionally, on his timetable, with no commitment, while he looks around for someone better. And the woman puts up with it telling herself she is cool and this is what she wants while secretly hoping he’ll fall in love with her.

Completely agree @Thewindwhispers, and I think myself and many friends have been in similar situations where the FWB relationship is utterly toxic.

I think it suits men a lot more than women.

@Thewindwhispers

Yanbu.

I think when women say FWB, what they usually mean is a man they’d love to be in a relationship with, but who doesn’t admire/like them enough to date them, but he is willing to have affectionless sex with them occasionally, on his timetable, with no commitment, while he looks around for someone better. And the woman puts up with it telling herself she is cool and this is what she wants while secretly hoping he’ll fall in love with her.

Exactly this! Spot on!

nothingmorethanthis:

"But once the concept of FWB is popular, and women start to feel social pressure to be 'ok' as this as part of their liberated, progressive identity, then you can see how women who are not in such secure places end up getting hurt. And you can certainly see how, in a misogynistic society, there are men who will be certainly keen to take advantage of the FWB concept and use it to stop women from complaining about how shittily they are treating them."

YY this is René Girard & memetic desires in a nutshell:

“Man is the creature who does not know what to desire, and he turns to others in order to make up his mind. We desire what others desire because we imitate their desires.”

ie desires and behaviours occur not just at the level of private individuals, but it causes metastasised "strings" of memetic behaviour within the cultural group. Same applies to the full gamut of other cultural behaviours, such as fashions in trainers, cuisines, car driving attitudes etc.

But what kind of trainers you wear doesn't really matter, however sex is so intimate and crucial to the human psyche. It's why it can cause the most blissful of connections that builds and holds families together, and cause the most devastating PTSD at the other end of the spectrum. It's literally the process of creating life... of course it's going to come with profound psychological/cultural/sociological implications, both for individuals at the micro level, and the cultural collective at the macro level.

This isn't about "shaming" women, women get enough of the shitty end of the stick already... when it all goes wrong:

women are the ones left pregnant and literally left holding the baby/emotional and physical aftermath of a termination

women suffer greater harm to the reproductive system from STDs than men (eg chlamydia)

women are more likely to catch an STD in the first place than men as our reproductive systems are internal

women are more likely to bond earlier to their sexual partner and get their heart broken... sometimes from the guy being an arsehole, and sometimes cos things just didn't click or work out.

I'm pro holding men fully to account for their sexual actions and not being able to walk away from the mess they cause. Financially and morally. And pro-wisdom for women. It's not shaming to point out the intrinsic bear traps for women in heterosexual relationships.

I 100 perfect agree with you Llandings, I don’t buy into this modern trend of people detaching their emotions from their biological functions, which goes against everything we know about our physiology as our emotions and physical functions are intrinsically linked (as I’ve been discussing on another thread)

When you look at the push towards commercialisation and removing emotional connections from sex and also consider the recent push for changes in surrogacy laws it makes you wonder where this will end up because it’s looking an awful lot like The Handmaids Tale.

@WaningMoon

I 100 perfect agree with you Llandings, I don’t buy into this modern trend of people detaching their emotions from their biological functions, which goes against everything we know about our physiology as our emotions and physical functions are intrinsically linked (as I’ve been discussing on another thread)

When you look at the push towards commercialisation and removing emotional connections from sex and also consider the recent push for changes in surrogacy laws it makes you wonder where this will end up because it’s looking an awful lot like The Handmaids Tale.

Ah, you again. I really do recommend you do a bit of wider reading on human culture, social structures and sexuality (Kate Lister's 'Curious History of Sex' is a fun read and informative as well as accessible) because the stuff you keep insisting is true and scientifically proven... simply isn't.

There has always been a lot of transactional stuff going on around sex (and not just with regard to sex work). Women had to trade sex for security, except that it was supposed to be a once-in-a-lifetime deal - marriage was about ownership and inheritance, much less about mutual desire or even liking, particularly among the wealthy. Up until fairly recently, women were supposed to consider the man's status and earning potential just as much as his twinkly eyes and sense of humour.
Now that women are not legally prohibited (at least in most of the world) from earning or owning money, they have rather more choice about how they conduct their sex lives, including whether/when to have children. Some people don't like that and would prefer women trade sex for a wedding ring/commitment - and try to encourage this by moaning and scolding about how anything else 'devalues' sex, women, romance or the whole lot (and I am always suspicious of such people as their agenda is very rarely in the best interests of women).
One thing everyone should consider is that, while it is unkind and unethical to promise love and commitment in order to persuade someone who wants those things to have sex with you, it is also unkind and unethical to agree to casual sex when you are aware that you really want commitment and somehow believe that the other person will magically change their mind and fall for you... and, when this doesn't happen, to harass and blame that person for your distress.

Wreath21

Why are you so invested in detaching emotions from sex?