Moral dilemma re "woo woo" friend. WWYD?

[Maskless]

"John" is male, platonic pal. We connect strongly on politics, music, food and social issues, but he has this whole other set of beliefs and activities that leave me cold: crystals, spiritualism, spirit guides, astrology, tarot etc. He claims to be able to see into people's futures but in the 10 years I have known him, I have never seen any evidence of this -- he's just the same as anyone else, and has been taken by surprise by things that have happened to him, and me and everyone else.

Because we get on so well otherwise, and I don't want to lose him, I am respectful and don't sneer but I don't believe in it one shred and so he avoids talking about it to me as he has other friends for that kind of discussion and activity.

"Jane" is a friend I've known for 7 years. She's a bit gullible compared with sceptical old me. Now she's found out through a third party that "John", whom she has never met, does "spiritual readings" and has asked me to link her up with him next time she visits me, and go with her to his place to have a "reading". I have now found out that he charges £50 for this plus £10 for a recording of the session to take away. "Jane" isn't quite on the breadline but she's not got that sort of money to squander.

Her tone and manner when asking me to arrange an appointment with him was such that it was clear that she is really excited at the thought that he is absolutely going to tell her her future and, because she believes he can, she thinks it is worth £50 to find out what's in store for her.

I'm in a quandary.

Part of me thinks I should not do anything at all to facilitate John to financially exploit and possibly lie to, trick and mislead Jane. As her friend I should look after her interests, her purse, and protect her from charlatans.

But the other part of me says Jane's a grown up and what she does with her money is none of my business, and it's not my place to interfere.

I thought I could just give her John's number and then not mention it again but she not only wants me to ring him and make the appointment, but she expects me to actually go with her and sit there with her in his house whilst he talks (what I think is) bollocks then relieves her of a week's grocery money.

If he said things and they didn't come true what if she turns to me and blames me for setting her up with a con-man?

If I said "no, I won't come with you, and I won't make the appointment, but here's his number" she would smell a rat and ask me why not and then I'd tell her what I felt, which might lead to us falling out because she does believe in all those things.

We're all in our 60s, if that's relevant.

What would you do?

You could say ''don't trust him any more than you'd trust a random stranger giving readings because he's my friend as there are sides to him that I value, sides to him that I ignore''.

Make it clear that your friendship with him is based on a different side to the side of him that takes money for readings.

I would be completely honest with her. You think it’s a load of old hokey, you’ve never seen any evidence of John’s ‘special ability’ in all the time you’ve known him and you think it’s a complete waste of money but she is an adult and it’s up to her how she spends her cash.
Simple.

John is a prick to charge people for fuck all.

I foresee John and Jane shagging before the night is out.

P.s I would go right off John knowing that he’ll pocket money from needy people for farting in their general direction.
He’s either deluded or a self-important, exploitative cunt. I say the latter but you know him, so…

Your friend must realise that people bring out different sides of themselves with different people. You could tell her that it's the elephant in the room between you and John that you don't believe in some of the things that are important to him. That way, she knows you're not endorsing him. But you're making it clear that you don't want to fall out with him, or her.

I was thinking recently, with one friend, we just keep it so light, find the humour in the ridiculous. Another friend we talk about work/careers and self-development in a work context, another friend, we talk about family dynamics and psychology! They all know a different me, but it's all real.
I'm 51 and calculate pensions 9-5 but I might pay for a tarot reading one day. There's a lot for a reader to learn, there'd be easier scams. I wouldn't feel duped if they did it well as it's a bit of an art. I wouldn't go back week after week mind you but I would love to see a tarot card reading done well. Once.

I’ve got a similar woo friend who does Tarot readings for others but she certainly doesn’t charge. It’s her hobby and she wouldn’t dream of taking money for it. Even at that I’m eye dolly about it but given it’s volunteered I just ignore it, much like you do John. If she was charging I think I’d feel quite differently towards it.

eye rolly*

He's an absolute scammer, how can you be friends with someone who manipulates money out of vulnerable/dim people?

He has different beliefs from you, so what? is that any different from someone who is a church goer for example? there is no rational/scientific proof that it is real either...

As for your female friend she is a grown up and can make her own decision.

You can mention that you don't really believe in that stuff in general and that you have not really seen examples of your male friend being right in his predictions and that you don't really want to get involved further. She has his number, you leave it at that...

Yes, the belief that it’s acceptable to take £50 off people for pretending to have a superpower. It’s greedy, narcissistic and also rather pathetic.

“ dear Jane here is John’s number btw he charges £60 and in the x years I’ve known him I’ve not seen any evidence of psychic ability but if you do book a session with him please do not say this as I’ve known him for a long time and value the friendship honesty I don’t think any of these people are any good why don’t we just have a drink together and I can give you advice.? “

So what do you do if she becomes dependent on him, and he takes her money weekly and its a much bigger problem that they re both involving you in? I'd be reporting him to the police, its fraud.

Just respectfully tell her that you don't believe in that stuff so you will give her his number but would rather not attend with her.

It's none of your business how she spends her money. I also don't understand how you can't explain to her that you don't feel comfortable going along with her as it is not what you believe in. You need to respect how she wants to spend her money and she needs to respect that you don't believe in this and you won't be going. Give his number to her and let them at it. It doesn't sound to me like either one of them should be your friend if you don't feel comfortable being honest with them.

I'm interested in astrology and tarot as a discussion and self-reflection tool and as a starting point to to explore various topics. But can they predict the future, absolutely not. I would steer clear of any person who claims to tell the future.

With regards to your friend, unfortunately, you need to let her make her own judgement. I do think she is being foolish if she thinks John can tell her future. However, if it gives your friend food for thought and a space to think about the things she wants to explore, then it is potentially a good thing. But, she should take any advice with a pinch of salt and draw her own conclusions

@pictish not saying that this is the situation OP is facing but I think people can be too closed off to anything that isn't practical and sensible and established. I know my friend who is the most practical person in the world was mocking EMF technique when I was looking in to it, giving herself a hard pat on the head and doing a mock reel at the force of her own hit. But whether it's reiki or EMF or hypnosis to help with giving up smoking or looking in to Jungian archetypes and what to bring forth and what to keep an eye on (which is how I personally interpret the tarot) then it's good to be open to something that isn't carved in to a circular or govt legislation.

I'm knee deep in spreadsheets and calculations mon - fri and it's good to be open to different energies. not every energy in your life should be practical, proven, logical, established etc..

But saying that, I have met some really interesting people who seem to do things the other way around to me, immerse themselves fully in all of the the things that aren't proven, all of the things that are a little bit magical and they live on wonder and potential and only eke out a living around the edges of that.

I’d be tempted to gently take the mickey beforehand, clarifying that this bollocks is ‘not my thing’, then afterwards when she is debriefing I’d take a firm line on any ideas he may give her that would lead to actual bad decisions, using my previous mickey-taking/‘not my thing’ line as an explanation so it’s not a personal attack on either of them. Otherwise, you just have to leave her to it, she’s a grownup.

Loads of my friends have batshit ideas, it’s why I like them, but I don’t agree with the ideas and my friends don’t expect me to!

I think I would go further than telling her you don't believe in this, tell her you've never heard or seen any evidence that he actually can foretell the future and, if possible, tell her about things he didn't foretell and which took him by surprise. For instance, it's astonishing how none of these so-called "seers" foresaw the pandemic or any of the new variants.

But saying that, I have met some really interesting people who seem to do things the other way around to me, immerse themselves fully in all of the the things that aren't proven, all of the things that are a little bit magical and they live on wonder and potential and only eke out a living around the edges of that.

Me too! I don't necessarily think John is a con man, maybe he's really passionate about what he does and gets genuine pleasure from helping people and Jane in return derives some comfort from it. I'd say that's absolutely fine. You may need to give up a couple of hours when she gets back to listen to her evangelising but she's your friend so imagine you can do that this once. Good luck and don't overthink it!

Gosh, thank you very much everyone for your considered and wise responses.

I do now have a plan of action, a phrase that I have rehearsed and will stick to.

So many people have asked me questions and I don't know if I am supposed to reply to them or just ask the questions of myself. I don't want to be rude by ignoring them, so here goes (apologies if I missed yours but I am finding it hard to cope with @ tting, copying, pastings, replying etc on this site.)

@Chocaholic9

"people who believe in a spiritual dimension are not "gullible". They just have different beliefs from you."

I did not call her gullible for believing in a spiritual dimension. Indeed, she and I have never discussed spiritual issues. I call her gullible because I have seen her fall for scams, hard-luck stories, wind-ups by colleagues, believing lying boyfriends, street trader scams, dating scams, etc.

@Changelingbutonlyforme

"Does John give good advice as a friend?"

Yes. But in all these years I have never seen the slightest evidence that he has any powers to predict the future.

"Do you trust him to give good advice trussed up in woo? Or does he follow some kind of method or ritual and parrot back whatever the cards tell him?"

I've no idea how he works. I only just found out that he charges people to give "readings" that predict their future.

"How would he react to you telling him Jane hasn’t got a lot of money and absolutely can’t afford ongoing readings?"

I have no idea. But the women on this thread would say that's me interfering and treating her like a child.

@HaveringWavering

"I’m confused why she couldn’t Google his contact details herself or get John’s number from Pauline."

Jane does not know his surname, and Pauline doesn't know his number. He does not advertise his services online.

@Smartiepants79

"How genuine do you believe John to be? Does he truly believe what he’s saying or is it and act to make money?"

I regard him in the same way as (as an atheist) I regard my local vicar. Maybe I'm wrong and woo woo stuff IS all true. In the same way as maybe there really is a god up there watching us. I don't know, so until I see evidence, I remain sceptical, unconvinced, and waiting for their beliefs to be proven. I expect John believes it himself. We really do not ever discuss it. When years ago he told me the things he believed I made it clear that side of his life is something I don't share, and he hasn't referred to it for years. I only know he does these readings for money because Jane found out from Pauline that Pauline's late sister had paid him for readings.

OP, don't worry about answering everyone individually

Tbh it would lessen my respect for John. .
And maybe for Jane also.
Still, will await the predictions never the less!! Don't forget to update.
Of course John will already know you will be repeating his reading!!
He will tell Jane she is travelling to a Non Believer's house!!

It would be good if Mumsnet allowed us to use an emoji to respond to posts, then posters would know that the OP had read their post and how they were received.. FB does this, it can't be that hard to add.

@ElectraBlue

He has different beliefs from you, so what? is that any different from someone who is a church goer for example? there is no rational/scientific proof that it is real either...

As for your female friend she is a grown up and can make her own decision.

You can mention that you don't really believe in that stuff in general and that you have not really seen examples of your male friend being right in his predictions and that you don't really want to get involved further. She has his number, you leave it at that...

Church is for free.

Do I believe in a god? Not really. But most churches aren’t manipulating people into spending £60 to hear God’s word. And in fact most of them do charitable community outreach work and provide valuable support.

So that’s how it’s different.

Wouldn't it though! And an edit function. But there is a quote feature. Click on the three dots on a post, and you can quote the whole post then respond, but honestly, there's no need.