Moral dilemma re "woo woo" friend. WWYD?

[Maskless]

"John" is male, platonic pal. We connect strongly on politics, music, food and social issues, but he has this whole other set of beliefs and activities that leave me cold: crystals, spiritualism, spirit guides, astrology, tarot etc. He claims to be able to see into people's futures but in the 10 years I have known him, I have never seen any evidence of this -- he's just the same as anyone else, and has been taken by surprise by things that have happened to him, and me and everyone else.

Because we get on so well otherwise, and I don't want to lose him, I am respectful and don't sneer but I don't believe in it one shred and so he avoids talking about it to me as he has other friends for that kind of discussion and activity.

"Jane" is a friend I've known for 7 years. She's a bit gullible compared with sceptical old me. Now she's found out through a third party that "John", whom she has never met, does "spiritual readings" and has asked me to link her up with him next time she visits me, and go with her to his place to have a "reading". I have now found out that he charges £50 for this plus £10 for a recording of the session to take away. "Jane" isn't quite on the breadline but she's not got that sort of money to squander.

Her tone and manner when asking me to arrange an appointment with him was such that it was clear that she is really excited at the thought that he is absolutely going to tell her her future and, because she believes he can, she thinks it is worth £50 to find out what's in store for her.

I'm in a quandary.

Part of me thinks I should not do anything at all to facilitate John to financially exploit and possibly lie to, trick and mislead Jane. As her friend I should look after her interests, her purse, and protect her from charlatans.

But the other part of me says Jane's a grown up and what she does with her money is none of my business, and it's not my place to interfere.

I thought I could just give her John's number and then not mention it again but she not only wants me to ring him and make the appointment, but she expects me to actually go with her and sit there with her in his house whilst he talks (what I think is) bollocks then relieves her of a week's grocery money.

If he said things and they didn't come true what if she turns to me and blames me for setting her up with a con-man?

If I said "no, I won't come with you, and I won't make the appointment, but here's his number" she would smell a rat and ask me why not and then I'd tell her what I felt, which might lead to us falling out because she does believe in all those things.

We're all in our 60s, if that's relevant.

What would you do?

I would give her the number as she is an adult and it’s her money but I would make it very clear that I do not believe that anyone can predict the future so will not be attending. I would also state that I don’t want to risk our friendship debating this. If Jane is rude enough to keep badgering me then I would either hang up, ignore the messages or walk away from her depending on how we were communicating.

Thanks for the advice, ladies. I am saying some of the phrases you suggest out loud, to practice saying them to her in a way that shuts down further discussion but without sounding like I am slagging him off, as I don't want her repeating that to him and losing him as a mate.

Stop patronising Jane.

She heard about John from.an entirely other source. If he doesn't advertise or tout for business, is it possible he has a good reputation through word of mouth?

Honestly, you are being incredibly judgy.

Surely telling her you don’t believe in all that stuff isn’t going to lead to a falling out? You say you’re in you're 60s, not 6! Has she never had a friend who believes in different things to herself, never a friend who believes in a different religion for example?

Just tell her you don’t believe in spirits/ the paranormal and so don’t want to get involved but give her John’s number. You don’t need to dismiss her beliefs or get into it to the extent it causes an argument and if she is that judgemental that simply stating you have different beliefs to her is enough to call a falling out you’re probably better off without her friendship!

Just just emailed me.

She'll be coming (50 miles) by train, dropping her overnight bag at my house (I live near the station) then catching a cab to his, then coming back to mine for the rest of the day and evening and spending the night here.

When she comes back from his place she'll be bubbling over with it all and bursting to tell me everything he said and then get my opinion on everything he said.

I'm just dreading it now.

But I would ask John if he is happy to have his details passed along- just as if it was for any other reason

You could always say that you won’t come with her in case the spirits get confused and he tells your fortune instead of hers!

I think you’re massively overthinking this. He already knows you don’t share his beliefs on woo stuff so what could there even be to gossip about if you gave her his number and said you didn’t want to go? I have a friend who’s a homeopath and I’d pass her number on but wouldn’t want to go along for a consultation and I’d be honest why. We’ve never discussed it but my homeopath friend knows I don’t share her beliefs. I also wonder if you really see him as a charlatan if he’s genuinely your friend? I don’t think of my friend that way, I know she genuinely believes in the service she is offering people.

@Maskless

"Surely she can’t be surprised that you don’t believe in fortune tellers?!"

We've been friends for a long time but not spend huge swathes of time together, and because we used to work together most of what we talk about is work-related, or reminiscing or gossipping about people we both knew or know.

The subject of the paranormal has never once come up in any discussion (beyond her reading her horoscope in the paper!)

That last paragraph made me giggle 😂

Ask him to do it for free for Jane or for a bottle of wine or other token gift. Then it won’t do her any harm.

Just say to be honest it's not really my thing, I don't pay any attention to that spiritual stuff so I'd rather not be involved.

If she keeps questioning you just say "as I said, it's not really my thing so I have no opinion whatsoever"

When she's trying to discuss it afterwards and asking for your opinion just tell her "like I told before before I genuinely don't have an opinion on this stuff!"

Is she going through some stuff in her life or keen to know the outcome of something in particular that's worrying her? or is she just going for the sake of it?

@spotcheck

Stop patronising Jane.

She heard about John from.an entirely other source. If he doesn't advertise or tout for business, is it possible he has a good reputation through word of mouth?

Honestly, you are being incredibly judgy.

She heard about his services via Pauline, another ex colleague of ours who also lives in my town and knows of him because her late sister went to him for a reading some years ago.

Pauline definitely did not recommend him to Jane as she doesn't believe in it either, though her sister did. Jane said they just got chatting and she expressed a wish to get a reading whilst here (seaside town with a pier) and Pauline told her that my pal John does such readings.

I think you are being harsh on me Spotcheck. I am not patronising, I am protective.

@user1481840227

Just say to be honest it's not really my thing, I don't pay any attention to that spiritual stuff so I'd rather not be involved.

If she keeps questioning you just say "as I said, it's not really my thing so I have no opinion whatsoever"

When she's trying to discuss it afterwards and asking for your opinion just tell her "like I told before before I genuinely don't have an opinion on this stuff!"

Is she going through some stuff in her life or keen to know the outcome of something in particular that's worrying her? or is she just going for the sake of it?

This sounds really good and something I could say. I've just said it out loud a few times to practice. It's just a case of being firm but pleasant, isn't it?

Yes, she wants to know whether to break up from her current fella, she wants to get in touch with her late mother and she wants to know what became of a child she had at age 15 who was taken away by the authorities and place in care, and whether she should look for a job or live off her work pension. These are all areas that I feel are "ripe" for a "spiritual reader" to give her advice on, and affect outcomes in her real life.

I'd say "Jane, you know I don't believe in all that psychic shit. Personally I wouldn't waste £10 let alone £60. I'll give you the number if you want, but I'm definitely not arranging it or going along with you."

Surely there's no issue with telling her that you don't share that particular belief at all, so you aren't in any position to offer any input as to how 'reliable' practitioners may or may not be.

You wouldn't expect a non-Catholic to be able to advise on who is the best at saying mass, or a vegan to have a considered opinion on which pork sausages are the best; so why should this be any different?

Well I don't believe either but if your friend does, then john is as good as any. You can tell her you don't believe in it (I don't think it is an unusual stance) but I would be interested in hearing what he said haha.

Also, it's not even just the £50/£60, if she's paying for a return train fare and taxis as well.

Incidentally, did she ask if she could stay at yours or was that just assumed?!

Hopefully John is sanitizing his card deck between clients
Sounds like she just wants an excuse for a bit of an adventure.

Have you thought that she might be trying to hook up with him and doesn’t actually believe it as much as she says. She’s travelling a long way and surely could find someone closer if she really wanted to. She’s just after a bit of excitement after a dull Covid filled year. Just say “have fun” and leave her to it.

@WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll

Also, it's not even just the £50/£60, if she's paying for a return train fare and taxis as well.

Incidentally, did she ask if she could stay at yours or was that just assumed?!

She travels here by train to stay at my house for a night or two a few times a year. So she'd be making the train journey anyway but the taxi, £5 each way, would indeed be on top.

She contacted Pauline another ex colleague of ours to say she'd be in her town visiting me, and during the convo she asked if there were ever any fortune tellers on our pier (there are not) and this was what led to Pauline saying, "Oh don't you know that Maskless's friend John does that kind of thing."

@moremoony

Have you thought that she might be trying to hook up with him and doesn’t actually believe it as much as she says. She’s travelling a long way and surely could find someone closer if she really wanted to. She’s just after a bit of excitement after a dull Covid filled year. Just say “have fun” and leave her to it.

You mean hook up sexually? I don't think so as she has never seen him. They are both in long terms with other people anyway.

I think she has this (wrong) idea that seaside places have fortune tellers which is why she started asking our other friend. (She lives in the countryside.)

I think maybe Brighton Pier 50 years ago was famous for fortune tellers and this is where she got the notion from. We're not in Bton but we do have a rather windswept pier.

Just be honest. Say you don't believe in it generally and you have never seen any evidence that John is that accurate. That Jane would be better off not going but if she really wants to it's up to her and you'll ring John and arrange it.

That way you gave a clear conscience that you have warned Jane and if she goes ahead with it, John will have made some money. You served them both well. Ultimately Jane is an adult and can decide how to spend her own money.

Agree I’d just be saying ‘I won’t be coming because I don’t believe in all that type of stuff.’

Personally I think this type of thing is hugely unethical. Very manipulative and generally people who buy these ‘readings’ are in a vulnerable place.

I love in a touristy seaside town and we have lots of ‘gypsy rose Lee’ stalls who tell your fortune. I don’t really those because they’re marketed just as what they are - a bit of daft fun on holiday. But people saying they can actually read your future/talk to the dead shouldn’t be allowed to ask for money in my opinion.

I think you are making this far more complicated than it needs to be. It’s really very simple to tell her you don’t believe in this kind of thing but her respect her right to try it out. She is, after all, a grown woman able to make her own decisions. Just give her his number and say it’s over to her now. She needs to make the appointment herself, and you won’t be coming with her.

If she asks you why you won’t come, repeat that it isn’t something you subscribe to and won’t be coming with her.

If she presses you about him and your perception of his abilities or lack of them, tell her John knows you’re not interested so you never talk about such things.

Andthen change the subject!

Can John do just a five-year prediction rather than the full ten for a few quid off?
Seriously, though, it’s all utter rubbish that exploits vulnerable and gullible people. So you should tell Jane that nobody can see into the future and speak no more of it. John should be ashamed of himself.