"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Smithfield, I might do later, if I start though I have no idea how long I'll be typing for, and I dont have the time nor the inclination right now.
I suppose I just dont know where to start, dp knows pretty much everything and it took me over a year to tell him in bits and pieces so goodness knows what I'd come out iwth if I tried to type it all here.

DomesticGoddess- You 'will' find validation here I promise. No-one will tell you to get over it or move on. As MDC just said your pain 'is' just as valid. If you read the posts everyone starts off by saying 'my abuse wasn't that bad...'. start getting your thoughts out in a safe environment like this and I promise you it is a cathartic experience that will help you begin to make sense of it all. Take as long as you want....

Christmassendsmepsycho- I read your thread, tendency I guess to gravitate towards threads that have meaning to me. You are welcome and the above I just wrote to DG applies to you too. Dont worry how much just keep typing, have a good sob too. Your children will just know mummy is human and mummy will probably function a whole lot better with some of the angst on the outside than bottled up on the inside. Trust me I know.

Vs- again to you as above- I feel like part of you is actually really wanting to get it out there- dont give the length of time it takes or length of post a second thought. This is a forum for you, where you will feel validated and supported. As I said before incredibly cathartic too! If you do have any unresolved emotions this will also allow you to get in touch with whatever feelings you may have buried

You made it Psycho!!! I know its a big first step posting on here. Its like stepping forward at an AA's meeting 'my name is ally and I was abused as a child'. Scary, but you acknowledge to yourself how bad it was.

I get the crappy role model. Have to kind of think back to my childhood, how I felt when x happened then think what I would have wanted to happen. Not as straight forward as 'mum would have done this'

And rarely 'eaten up inside' now (good way of explaining that murderous feeling inside). I don't have to put on a false front anymore. I can be me and just say what happened was wrong, there is no apology, but at least I'm standing by my priciples by insisting I am treated better by that by the people I now know.

What was your experience with councelling? What went wrong? Have you got any self help books. Toxic Parents by Susan Forward is the 'starter' book on here usually. My personal fave is Divorce a Parent by Beverley Engel.

MDC - I just get such overwhelming aching sadness reading your post yesterday. Just that longing to be loved and your smallest achievements recognised. (((hugs))) Glad your here.

TMSB and Smithfield - how did I miss you being pg?! How far on are you both? Hang on...Smithfield, you mentioned it early on...doh! Did you TMSB? Congrats both anyway!

Domesticgoddess - nice name

One reason I could not bear my mother to be around my dd is sheer jealousy at her treating my dd how she should have treated me. I don't think I could have coped with the feelings of bitterness/hate/sadness/hurt. I really feel for you going through this. Your situation feels similar to my decision to break off contact with my mother before I even had my dd. The feelings I had my entire pg knowing how she would overlook me in favour of dd kept me awake at night and eaten up inside with anger and hurt. I for a long time after split thought I had done it out of spite. However now I do see it as my dh had all along. It was done out of self presevation. I could not be around my mother while she did not acknowledge my abuse and her emotional neglect of me. And her being round my dd and making her the centre of her life would only enforce the abuse I had as a child from her. Even my dh taking my dd to see them would have eaten me up inside. It sounds a terrible thing to do, be jealous of the love your own child gets from your parents. But its a very real result of the neglect we had as children.
If you feel this is harming your mental health, have you tried councelling so you can start helping yourself? Could you cut back on visits to your parents, just dropping children off? Do your parents treat your dc okay?

Remember, you are the important person in your childrens life and what makes you happy in the long run will make them happy.

And you mention shame. We have it in bucketful's here...you may as well add it too our bottomless pit . I used to 'moan' be 'self pitying' and 'whinge' about my family to non empathetic people/friends. Then I discovered this thread and decided it was a bit more friendly and understanding. So I don't really bother with those people anymore and I feel much better for it. The key to this thread is the VALIDATION you get from telling us your childhood experience. Someone will always say something about it, and acknowledge how you felt. Just test the water with a memory from childhood, if you want. Your choice

VictorianSqualor - Sounds like its all a bit brushed under the carpet right now? And nothing much has happened lately so you'll just 'leave it' rather than rake through it all again. If that is a correct assessment...I could be wrong (it happens quite frequently) then its perfectly normal...sometimes I go for months like that...even with therapy, then something will set it all off again. So next time you feel the need to vent...

Bookofchristmascarolsmum - Sister problems? We do those too...toomanystuffedbears has a lovely sister, and once had parents to match. Have you seen our other thread that we outgrew?

Danae = just wanted to say 'hi'! How are you today with things?

CB - are you near a pc at all at xmas? You'll have to let us know how it goes. You could try taking something with you that reminds you of this thread (something my therapist once did with me was give me a gemstone when i had to face up to my mother).

Maisemor - How are you doing? xxx

Sakura - we'll all meet one day I think...

Pages - Hope your not killing the rainforest by printing all this off to read?

Must stop posting now...hugs to everyone on here...

Hi all, no - not printing off but can't seem to get a minute to catch up. Maybe when dc are in bed tonight...

DomesticGoddess, one thing to remember is that if you had had a happy pain free childhood you would be feeling happy and pain free now. For everyone on this thread who is suffering depression, hurt, anxiety, anger or upset as a result of things that happened in the past, or even just irraitation with or not wanting to be around your parents, this is current day evidence that it was that bad. You can't and shouldn't compare your pain with anyone else's... If you are hurting, then that's because you were hurt. As Ally says, noone will tell you your pain is not valid here.

Once it's on here it's not just floating around in your head. I think the feeling of unconnectedness is one of the worst things about grown up in this sort of family. Hence the importance of being able to connect with others on here.

Hi Pages! You at home this christmas?

Well all, looks like my sister is starting up again after a long time of no contact. Since I set up with my dh I've been getting cards v rarely from her signed 'from x' instead of the usual love from. I can tell with the previous one's my mother has harrassed her to send as they have been very grudgingly done. Now have a xmas card out of the blue 'to ally and family (she knows my dh and dd's names!) wishing you peace and joy this xmas time. from x (your sister). Oh its loaded with meaning that card...hmm do I follow temptation and sit and ponder or put it with the rest of mothers stuff? Okay got to quickly ponder...

a) my mother has been at her again.
b) 'your sister' is a dig at me 'forgetting her'
C)...haven't got a c!

And you know when you just 'know' the item is from your family? This card was written by someone else (a tactic regularly employed by my mother...wonder what on earth other people think being asked to do this?! and why go along with it?!) yet I 'knew' it was from my sister. Weird.

Right, off into the loft with it. I am practicing 'detatchment'. Strange as I'm doing 'I've got other more important things to think of' it seems to work...I just really don't care.

Hi
Smithfield-thanks for the Avoidant PD line of information...I feel for your isolation history. I don't think APD applies to me though. I'm not a great conversationalist so I am uncomfortable 'working' a room full of strangers but I can do small chit-chat with retail/service people who are not known to me. I listen well-often learn something. And there are times when someone will go on and on and I am left with the feeling that here is someone lonelier than me. (I hadn't thought that possible and I am more just alone than lonely.)

I do avoid some things, but with reason. Dh and I don't drink for various reasons(mainly, medical reason for dh and I abstain to support him- and we have both seen in our families what damage too much can do) so we don't socialize much at all. I am of the feeling that people who do drink don't particularly like people who don't drink to be around. I don't judge anyone, I believe adults can/should make their own decisions.

That is a big chunk of me 'not being a party girl'. And I am fine with that, it is just not my nature, as it is not my nature to do something just to 'fit in'- like gossip.
So I don't have many friends because without drink and gossip I am a very dull girl indeed.

Book: Friendship Crisis by Marla Paul

This book explains the attrition of friendships through life cycles of school/graduation, marriage, children, divorce/death of spouse and more. It has been a while since I read it and it struck me with some hard truths along the line of essential need for adult female friendship for emotional health. I took that as declaring emotional health was impossible without x-amount of adult female friends.
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This next part is thinking in progress and thus admittedly confused-trying to figure this out, so any pointers are welcomed:

Now, I don't think that is necessarily true, but it speaks to the feeling of being "connected" mentioned by Pages. Thank you so much-that is another link/clue for me. I can see that as children, the approval of others-parents especially- is the vital connection to validation and self-worth/self-esteem, confidence, etc.

As a youngster, I was validated and thought I was connected-through success at school and 3 sports. Well and good, but the nagging feeling of something lacking...I now realize that was very thin veil over the truth of a lack of true social connections. I was liked and respected but not on the social level of being in a clique group to hang out together all the time. I acknowledge the web of small town politics/circumstances of my Mom-I didn't get invitations and I wasn't going to go out and 'raise hell' like Oldest Sister. I was not a 'party girl' from early on. The social training in my youth, whether good social training or bad social training, was absent. Not 100% but enough, obviously.

But somehow it doesn't ring true that as adults, one has to be connected (or "have connections" -parent's perspective?) to be valid. As adults, validation comes from lots of different things without the participation (opinion of approval) of other people-ie adult female friends. I can not help but hear the mommy line in my head: "If everyone jumped off a cliff, would you follow?" (Don't blindly follow others, think for yourself.)
Fellowship is comforting and it is a safe haven, sanctuary, to know you are not alone, thus this thread. I have the fellowship of my family {dh, dc}, and am thankful for that.
The connectedness for validation and the connectedness to other people for social needs may be two different things.
I am concluding here (for now anyway) that: Social success/needs does not define personal validation.
Perhaps the vital connection that we (I) are looking for is with ourselves since we (I) didn't get it (positive valid definition of who we are) from our parents as a child. Foundation. Then connections with others (adult female friends) are fringe benefits, icing on the cake, not so essential.
Still not quite right...being able to connect with other people is important, but how deep do you need to connect? Or perhaps it is a longevity thing, hard circumstance in today's world.
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HOWEVER, I also have been on the other side of the fence and have broken off with others, which while disappointing (from a generous nature) is self-validating. I do not want to ever be that desperate to have a poisonous friend just to have a "friend".

Reading this book amplified my 'need' for Middle Sister's friendship (connection) and I was pretty much willing to put up with anything from her. This see-sawed in my mind for a while-, let her be herself as I want others to let me be myself, just accept her, but how accommodating was I going to be?. I cried to dh to be more accepting of her dog (like care for it while she was on vacation) because I had to maintain this only friend and had to do things to preserve it-a la Friendship Crisis. Thankfully, he is a patient man and I really don't ask him for much so he did not protest.

Her predatory anger and the timing of the circumstances-her job change-she was no longer Queen Bee of the office-she transfered her control needs onto me and pushed me too far. I was considering limits on the relationship before I found out I was pg. Great, now I really do need her, so I thought. Crap! Crap! Crap! (That feels soo good, Pages! )
3 craps and a smile...lol. But I digress.

Thus I make my stand in opposition to Middle Sister.
I realize dh (and dc) is more important to me than Middle Sister, who seemed to simply need power validation at my expense. I could no longer dismiss his wishes in favor of her (with or without the baby on the way). So the dog is out- dh has allergies (pet free home) and I am not comfortable with a dog around a baby.

As much as I have to do today, I certainly didn't intend to post a dissertation, so what the heck, I'll post again .

Ally-
I'll be 46 next month, baby is due Feb. 26, more of a surprise than not but very welcome once I got over 'good grief-got to go through all that fatigue again'. Two teenagers (15ds, 13dd) and dh, who has wanted another child for years, make it 4 taking care of 1, so I'm confident things will be different this time-plus experience will help. And no, I do not really need Middle Sister's help through this. I really need Oldest Sister's help as she is a nurse and she promised she'd come help me in hospital and recover. Everything is going well, so far, better than I thought it would given my 'advanced maternal age'.

Congrats to you Smithfield and good luck. I hope everything is going well for you. Do you know what you are having? Ours is a girl.

Must now go and make breakfast for ds and dd is stirring too. 10 til 10 not bad .

Hi everyone. Just grabbing 5 mins here amidst all the chaos at home!

Well, I did bank the cheque anyways. If he was going to use it against me--why bother sending it?
I was also really pissed off that he wrote dd1 name wrong..he didn't even put my name on the envelope! dd1 and dd2 both got a very short handwritten note...I got the cheque but no note / letter.

dd1 now tells me that dad has been on the phone again this morning??? His mobby is secret from my mother, but if he can find 5 mins to call the dd's, surely he could find the time to fire me off a quick text?
WTF hell is going on with them?

Don't feel bad about taking the money, gifts should be given without any tie so take it on that level. Write a little note saying that you for your generous gift, some little words about what and your family have been up to, make it short and breezy and don't try to psychoanalyse his motives.

My parents do that, they send postcards to the boys but ignore us.

DS1(6) has just got an email account, so he sends adult messages to him about coming to see him in London and copies me in on them. I just ignore them.

I don't think it is intended to hurt, just is careless and shows their lack of respect.

MDC, I like your idea however....

My father has always been a damn secretive PITA where my mum is concerned. When we were talking he always used to send me money down and always say 'don't tell your mother'
If I wrote a note and she got hold of it, she would recognise my handwriting anyways...and knowing her she would open it up.

I always psychoanalyse his motives because everything is such a damn secret away from my mum. It's at the point where I don't know what's secret and what's not...if that makes sense?

Now I feel with the secret calls between him and dd1, he's roping them into his stupid little games. Everytime I tried and called him up, noone ever answers or I get the ansa machine.

I don't mind the dd's having a 'phone relationship' with them, but it looks like he's offloading all his BS onto them and using the same saying he did with me...'don't tell your mother' kinda thing.

Sorry, I'm rambling. x x

Hi, all, just want to give you the link to Alice Miller's website. It has loads of information and advice and articles about child abuse and how to overcome it's effects.

www.alice-miller.com

sorry! link didn't work! how useless am I! But please look at her website, I'm sure you will all find it really useful.

purpleone- not sure how old your dd's are but it doesnt seem appropriate to me that they have a phone relationship (or any relationship) with dd's when it includes such blatant disrespect for yourself.
You are their mother and you have the right to pull the plug on this.

purpleone - a secretive relationship with my boys is what I fear the most, luckily they are 6 and 4 so I am still in control.

Maybe you shouldn't play into his games, if he wants to do things like send you money of speak to the girls you should make it clear that it is out in the open and on your terms. I know it is easier said than done.

dds are nearly 13 and 10.

How can I stop them when it's done in secret?
And the calls are made on dd's mobile?

Purpleone-sorry hope that didnt come accross as criticism of you Just makes me cross how he is manipulating you through your dd's. You probably feel powerless cos thats how he has made you feel throughout your life. 'You' are not powereless. Find out through mobile provider if you can block his number...Im fairly sure you can do that? That way you wouldn't have to involve the girls in that decision.

Even at 13 and 10, you are still at liberty to step in and make a decision which has their best interests at heart.

Smithfield. I never took anything as criticism

It makes me cross too, and very angry that my mother has ignored us all (and made comments when she knew that dad was talking to dd1
Dad is trying to maintain their relationship, but I'm getting ignored also.
I'm beginning to wonder whether the cheque thing maybe was placation.

Am just getting really upset at the thought of christmas looming nearer and nearer. I guess I was hoping at least for a card, or even some kind of contact...to even try and state my case. But I was wrong. They haven't given me the opportunity to even explain, or vent my spleen at them. (Only asked mum not to smoke in my home. She still did as I could smell it. She threw my doorkey back at me, dad didn't even stick up for me, and they both just walked out)
Have been brought up as a child to believe that xmas was always about spending time with family...this is my first one alone, and I'm dreading it.

You are right about the mobby contact too smithfield. I just feel so stuck in the middle and try to do what's right for my dd's. dd1 apparently asked my dad if she could speak to nanny this morning, and nanny yelled out 'that she didn't want to f*ing talk to her, that she wasn't interested anymore'

That brought tears to my eyes, as a woman so bloody bitter could even think of saying those things to a kid, but right on top of xmas too. What a bitter old bag!

oh what to do...........

im in a quandry over my mother AGAIN

last week i asked her to mind my kids while i went for a chinese meal with my neighbour, me and dh arent together anymore and my neighbour said i needed cheering up.

she has been promising me allsorts since me and dh split, saying she,ll help with the kids whenever and trying to control what goes on with me and dh ie dont let him in your house you are seperated now, dont let him spend xmas day with the kids in your house make him go to his.

so she said no to babysitting, she said as the neighbour isnt family or part of the religion we both belong to (JW, but i havent been for getting on 5 months now) then it would be on her conscience and that she had devoted 30 odd years to the religion and wasnt about to let me try and "trip her up"

so i sent her a very strong worded email saying that her emotional blackmail doesnt work etc and good for her that she has been a devout member but that i have 2 disabled kids,am a single parent and am really struggling at the moment.

so on thursday i got this reply:

i have given it time for us both to cool down, i was upset at you asking me to do something which breaks the rules of the organisation that we both belong to (it doesnt, she takes everything to the extreme) and you were upset for not helping you out, she then gave an illustration of how she wouldnt buy cigarettes for my sister cos if she got cancer she would feel responsible but that she still loved her and wanted to see her and her kids.

so i let her stew for a day and yesterday i sent her one back saying how can she say looking after my children is on her conscience when i go out for a meal with my friend when she regularly looks after both my sisters children when they go out drinking or on holiday with their boyfriends.

i feel she is punishing me once again as always for not doing what SHE wants me to do and because i no longer am a practising JW.

I have agreed to the kids having xmas in my house with their dad, they both want it and im not forcing them to do anything that they dont want to, i wasnt given a choice as a child and me and dh are getting along fine at the moment.

there are 2 things going on here i think, she doesnt like it that me and dh are getting along even though we are seperated and she HATES the fact that im very friendly with my neighbour.

she has asked for the kids tomoz and ive said yes and xdh is dropping them off and picking them up as i dont want to see her at the moment.

Am I allowed to cut and paste an email that I have just sent to my parents?

(Mods please take it down, if it's infringing anything)

Dear Mum and Dad...
'It is with great regret that I have to type this to you, but it has to be done as I am totally fed up with the whole situation. I cannot cope with being stuck in the middle. All I want to do is the best for my children, but Dad, your not making it very easy on me.

Mum, I cannot comprehend how your grandaughter wants to talk to you on the phone, yet you won't speak. She can overhear all the incessant comments that you make...how you're not interested, you don't want to talk...she's heard it all. I can imagine how a 12 year old child must be feeling. After all, I was 12 when you took me to see a counsellor and told her you wanted me put into care...? Total bloody ignorance from you mother, you are turning into a very bitter and twisted old lady.

Dad. Thankyou so much for the cheque you sent me. Did you just send it to me for placation? as you know damn well what your doing is wrong. Ringing L in secret on her mobby behind my back. Telling her 'not to tell mummy'. I am quite upset at the fact you spelt L's name wrong and you couldn't even be bothered putting in a short note for me. The least you could fucking do was even just to say hello. You cannot keep ringing L up behind my back and offloading to her about mother. That is emotional abuse and you have to rope her into your little secrets too? If you have a spare 5 mins to call L, then surely you could slip me in a text also?

I'm glad you both have your new found family to play with, I'm very happy for you all. Say hi to Colin for me and I'm sorry to have heard about Stephen the way I did, it was so nice of you to have let me know...or are we not part of the family anymore?
I guess I just answered my own question there lol...5 1/2 months down the line, not even a hello, a text, a note or even a phone call.

If I ever behaved that way and treated my kids with utter contempt over a lousy cigarette, I would gladly kill myself'.

Merry fucking Christmas parents.

I leave you with love and blessings,

Your daughter, Carol

Oh purpleone - I can hear the anger and the pain in your email. Big hugs, I have only realised that after I offload all my pain on my parents I feel a small amount of satisfaction and then emptyness. Long term it achieves nothing and just perpetuates the cycle of distrust and anger which they put in place.

This isn't meant as criticism because I do now how it feels. I think the idea of blocking dads mobile number from DD's mobile is a good one. Explain why you are doing it to your dad, say you are happy for them to speak to him but it has to be out in the open and any dealings you have with them must involve your mum as well. I don't know how much you can explain to your girls.

MDC I know it's not criticism.

You know I'd rather have the emptyness any day than this shit. In a sick sense I am satisified, because they never reply....!

I can explain a heck of a lot to the girls, but they feel very torn as they love their grandfather.
(Being a single mum for the last 6 years, mum and dad have babysat them a lot and had them over for school holidays) Owing to other issues, I'd ask their father but that's a no go area too!! sighs

My girls know an awful lot more than my parents will ever know...it's just being stuck in the middle is what hurts.

hugs to all x x x

Love your photo - now I know why you are called the purple one

I have no idea what it is like to bring up two kids on my own.

But, somehow we have to be bigger than them -because we can't change them. The money is great, the babysitting is great and giving the DD's a relationship with their grandparents is priceless. What we need to do is to find a way to navigate the shit, where we are clean and honest, where we don't compromise ourselves. Thats probably a load of bks but it sounds good in practice if the reality is much more complicated.

I'm back to my real name now MDC bye bye..

kaz33...abso bloody lutely!

To navigate the shit in all other areas is just crap...and xmas, well, [hmmm] however I don't get the relationships nor the baby sittingthng anymore. (they live too far away)

When I had the flu 3 years ago, my mum was there, in my home and travelling to chemists to grab medications. left my disabled mate to go and get them anyways but hey ho, that was 3 years ago.

After our fall out earlier this year and me and dd's went doen with the 'shits'..she text me back and said 'so what'?Me and dd's were fighting over the toilet back then..their exdhs response was...'oh i dont care' (he remarried on the rebound)

what else can I say? Im off to bedright now

Oh purpleone I just read your mail. It just struck me how helpless you sound. I mean, its going to be so easy for them to look at that mail and think "ooh, purpleone has gone in a hufty, what on earth have we done wrong this time. Poor us, poor us"

But I think its great that you're in touch with your anger. You have to get it out and get it down. I sent loads of those kind of angry letters and e-mails to both of my parents. EVentually, you'll move on and be able to be cooler with them, but it could take a while.

Remember what we're all aiming for is to not care what these people think. Also, you sound like you're justifying your anger, like explaining to them why you're angry but you really don't have to explain anything to them. If they don'T get it now, they're never going to get it!!

I received a HUGE Christmas box from my father through the post.I am at a stage with him where I have minimal e-mail contact. I thought I was okay regarding him, but last Xmas when I visited home, when I was alone with him, I felt this huge incontrollable welling up of rage inside of me and I just flipped. It scared the hell out of me and I realised that I can't just play "jolly hockey sticks" with him anymore. He will have to acknowledge my pain, or at least the fact that he supported my mother over her sabotage of my wedding (even though they'D just divorced - her control over him was that strong)
I have been telling him again and again not to send things to me, saying I need my space. TBH I felt hunted and hounded by him. AS though it wasn't done out of love at all, but out of some peverse "I will force you to acknowledge me Sakura"
SO anyway the Xmas box comes and it is huge. My first reaction was "oh, thats lovely" but when the excitement died down I realise that I can't trust him. NO doubt there is some alteriour motive. Sure enough that evening and for the next few days we were bombarded with phone calls from him (which I didn't answer) , no doubt him "checking" that the box arrived safely. But at the end of the day I don't have it in me to speak to him yet. I revert to "child", I feel a deep anger and I lose myself. So I feel I was right- that the main purpose of his conspicuous gift was to break down my boundaries (he knows DH is a man of "etiquette" and would probably insist that I call my dad to say thanks, but thankfully DH is now on my side about this)
So I sent a short, sweet cordial e-mail sincerely thanking him for the box and how we're looking forward to opening it. And I've continued to ignore calls from him. Maybe I'm in the wrong but I feel like I have no choice. Why should I lower myself and let him press my hot buttons on the phone just so he can have the satisfaction of seeing me get angry, so that he is validated that he can still affect me?