"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

ally90, thank you for spending the time to post in detail in reply to me.

I think this thread could be very helpful - especially at the point I am at.

it feels quite 'safe' here. I can expose my rubbish parenting here perhaps.

VictorianSQ - I note what you say about shouting and then hugging not being love. I am so acutely aware of this that sometimes I don't even offer the hug.

I just don't get how one can be so aware of one's mistakes but not have the power to STOP. I like the idea of a pact but when I feel liek I feel I have to see it thrugh. i have to shout and express my hurt and disappointment.

This morning ds was a complete and utter arse about his breakfastcereal and added maybe 15 mins on to our getting ready time - making us late by 10 mins in the end. I smacked him in the end and felt absolutely awful even as I did it. There's a part I don't understand. Rationally I know that my children - aLL children - wish to please. So, I know that it cannot be willful on his part but it feels like the whole world let me down and my children are enjoying twisting the knife sometimes when they won't cooperate. Anyone identify with that?

Are these books about "Toxic Parents" really any good? Is it worth me getting a copy?

It's interesting reading about 'the lightbulb moment'. I only had mine a few weeks ago but I'm still finding it hard to come to terms with. I had a shit childhood. Just coming out with that statement makes me feel like a fraud because I've always looked on it as not being as bad as it could have been or as bad as some peoples childhoods. I wasn't sexually or physically abused.

I've started to remember things that have obviously been buried deep down for a long time and feel like I'm on a rollercoaster at the moment. I remember one instance when I was 13yrs old and my mother had been in a strop for days and one day she left and didn't tell any of us where she was going. In the afternoon the phone rang and I answered it. It was my mother and she told me that she was at such a place and if my stepdad didn't get there in the next 20 minutes she would be gone. So my stepdad went to meet her and came back a couple of hours later on his own and I just remember him being so angry. He was really angry with me and my older brother because the reason my mum had left was because we didn't love her enough.

My earliest memory of Christmas is of my Mother pulling paracetamol out of a kithen cupboard saying she was going to kill herself and my stepdad trying to stop her. I was probably about 5 or 6 at the time.

Thanks for letting me rant on. It feels better to get things off my chest.

I found Susan Forward's book Verrrry enlightening and helpful. I bought it o read in order to help exdp with his toxic childhood issues. It was that book that gave me the huge insight into my own childhood.

What worries me most is that my dc are going to ned to read it in 20 years time.

Susan Forward does look at sexual abuse in quite a big way in the Toxic Parents book but the advice is relevant.

She is good atgiving a sort of permission to deal with your parents in the way you need to. If you want to tell them to naff off forever, that okay. If you want to keep a distant but civil relationship with them, that's okay too.

I always feel guilty about confronting my parents or in ignoring them because I don't respect them any longer. The book made me feel more comfortable about that.

It has possibly been a bit of a can of worms though, so perhaps having therpay in place is a good idea before you start to read too deeply.

My lightbulb moment was over a year ago and I am still wading through treacle and in a state of confusion mixed with great insight.

Dividedself-I can completely identify with what you are saying. When I smack my kids it's usually because they have pushed me to my limit and I lose control and just need to vent my anger on something which comes out as a smack. Afterwards I feel so guilty because I lost control and it makes me feel even worse when all they want is a cuddle after. Thankfully I very rarely smack my children anymore, possibly because they are getting a bit older now (4 nearly 5 and 8) and are better behaved and also I think that it has something to do with where I'm at too. I'm not so highly strung as I used to be, I'm certainly alot more laid back.

My friends who have got children all say that they feel really guilty after they smack their children too, so we're not alone.

I worry too that my dc are going to be f**ked up in 20 years time. All I feel I can do is try not to do it as badly to them as my mother has to me, but I know it probably doesn't work like that.

I do feel I need a kind of permission to be distancing myself away from my mother. It's the look that people give me when I say that I haven't really had much to do with her for a couple of months, and I know she will be going around painting herself as the real victim and me as the villain to people. She's very clever at doing that, turning on the waterworks to suit her when she wants people to feel sorry for her.

I did have a very good chat with my nan (my mother's mum) at the weekend about my mother and she says she completely understands why I just want to keep away from her and that I'm best off out of it all.

Mampam, do you think (because I truly hope so) that us recognising and ackowledging the wrongfulness makes it a teeny bit better than what we experienced?

I mean, my mum blames me whenever we have had discussion about this. I think she knows, but has convinced herself it was me. When I provide my cast iron argument that it was her, not me (I was a child fgs) she backs away and kinda shrugs me off.

It's too late now, but I just feel that if she could acknowledge what went on and the damage it caused then i could heal a bit, y'know? Maybe I could also love her again like my mum instead of just the woman that I call mum these days.

divided that is exactly it. My mother goes out of her way to make out how awful I was as a child and completely distorts the truth in her favour. By making me out to be an out of control, awful child it's almost as if that is her way of justifying her own behaviour to herself.

I also feel it is too late now. Whist it is what I have craved for years I do not want to do the usual mother/daughter things with her anymore. I don't want her to put her arms around me and tell me she loves me because I don't want to do it back. It has gone beyond that point. But you are right if she could just acknowledge and put her hands up to the things she has done and continues to do then I'm sure things would start to heal more quickly. Maybe I could stop thinking of her as just my mother and start thinking of her as my mum.

Mampam and Dividedself - after the lightbulb moment - the next thing is to realise that you cannot change your mum, she won't suddendly put her arms around you and say i am sorry because she is not in control - she is herself f**d up.

Then you realise that the only thing that you can control is your reaction to her. You have to take control. I remember the first time I said "No" to my parents, now I am getting quite good at it. Also working on the "sorry but I have changed my mind" - she is loving that one

"Everyone is guilty, but no one is to blame"

Your mum is toxic no doubt because of things that happended to her. You can break the cycle and not pass it on to your kids. That is why I am doing this, not because I want a better relationship with my mum but because I want my kids to have a better chance than I did.

Absolutely kaz33, and I think that is what TP taught me. Part of me still seeks approval from both parents though even though I no longer truly value their opinion.

Pages...I think what I said came out wrong...sorry! I did not mean you need my permission to do anything...perhaps I was a tad bit parental in that post! So who's volunteering for the next thread?

Dividedself - your welcome

It takes a while to develop your 'stop' button. When I have a behaviour I'm not happy with round my dd eg critising her in front of other people, what usually happens is I recognise I do it...maybe a week/day/hour afterwards. I acknowledge it, think about what may have triggered it ie my feelings at the time, then make a mental note to recognise the feelings...then give myself a pat on the back for recognising I had done it. Then over time, weeks/months/year I notice myself critising her in the middle of a conversation and then stop myself. Its basically relearning behaviour patterns, it takes time and persistance and lots and lots of mental pats on the back, no matter how long it took you to notice your 'behaviour' happening. So you give yourself constant encouragement and praise. Its not impossible to relearn behaviours, just difficult!

As for the world against you. Could this be your mothers voice that you have taken on board? So even when she is not around you can still hear a stream of abuse/critisim/comments from her? As for children twisting the knife, the reason it may sometimes feel like that is that we were not nurtured as children and still need it, so when our children demand patience and nurturing...we have no reserve. I'm a bit woolly on that one so if its of any use to you...

Love the wading in treacle comment so true!

Hi Mampam

I get 'the look' too when I say I'm out of contact. I just come on here later though and see I'm normal and enlightened

Thinking your abuse was not that bad is normal, its the password to get onto this thread . If memories of your childhood cause you pain/discomfort/unhappiness...I think that is the key. And a parents inability to fully acknowledge any pain they caused you and apologise is a key to the continuing abuse of you as an adult child. Very shocking about her deserting you like that as a child...that is definately emotional neglect, even if your father was with you...children should never feel insecure that their mother who they depend on for survival will leave them, no matter how old you are.

Kaz...liking the 'I've changed my mind' I tried that once...fireworks went off! Pretty frightening as a I remember it.

kaz33 and ally90 how did you manage to get so wise!! I have to say that this thread has been a life saver for me. I never would've had the strength to distance myself away from my mother and stick to it if I didn't have the knowledge and wisdom of people posting on this thread. So thanks to everyone for keeping me sane and reading my ramblings.

I now realise that my process of healing is to take one small step at a time. The first step has been for me to distance myself and stay distanced. Normally I cave in because I keep going back for more in the hope that things will be different this time, that my mother will approve of me and that she may just be proud of me for once. Now I don't want her approval. Why would I want approval from someone as f**ked up as her.

[dryly] Experience.

I think its the support that keeps us all going. We all need each other to validate ourselves. Seems like we become a stronger voice than our parents voice the thread becomes a stronger peer group voice, we chose to listen to it.

Baby steps are good, even if you slip up a bit just keep plugging away. And you will end up wise too [ally dressed in long linen robes with long wispy white beard].

So do you feel as if you are accepting that your mother won't change now? I found that was a big lightbulb moment for me.

No, Ally, I was being genuine, it's a therapy-type phrase for someone like me who always needs approval from someone else... "permission not to be my usual overly diligent self, please?" "granted" "thank you Ally" .

I think the two light-bulb moments I have experienced are 1) the realisation (that we all had in one way or another hence being on thsi thread) that our childhood was in fact crap and our mother let us down badly and 2) the realisation that she will NEVER EVER change and that I no longer care if she does anyway...

Yes Pages - now I think she is just a bit sad and pathetic. And yes I do love her because she is my mum but my life and my childrens lives must go on. Baby steps, my boys steps, my familys steps...

I'm not wise I am just a quick learner and I have read assidoulsy.

Phew! Could you see the backtracking I was doing in case I offended . I think you could get away with a more laid back approach. Ie welcome new people/be diplomatic when there is any dispute (which really does not happen here, we're just too eager to please...). I could do it this next time if you wanted, but I don't feel I have your diplomatic powers and way of being so succinct. I'm a waffler...and can be a tad bit bossy .

Those two points are exactly the one's I would pick, so could be a common theme for everyone?

HI all,
I'm still away but I thought I'd def pop in on this thread- I'm at my dad's at the moment, so thats probably why I'm drawn to coming on here...
Yes PAges, the thread is too huge and too full of people now for you to have the responsibility of answering everyone, but I don't think anyone expects that of you at all, and its just nice for each individual to write down their own spiel and to have people to read it who know where they're coming from. I certainly don't expect people to read most of the stuff I write Ally- you too tend to take on the responsibility for answering to people. But it all shows how caring and considerate you are of others.

And I totally agree with what ally said, really- this thread has become the new "voice" that we can listen to whenever the ugly old parental voice pops up in our heads.

By the way PAges, I was glad to read that it didn't really turn out as bad as you'd imagined at the meeting, and in fact went quite well. GOod on you- this is another milestone.

I was just watching the news about JErsey and those child's remains. Last night on the news a 59 year old man finally spoke out about the abuse he'd suffered in the orphanage. I smacked to me of our situations- experiencing abuse and at the same time being silenced by the very people who were supposed to protect us. THE Jersey authorities needed the children to be silenced at any cost (death?) so that the good image of Jersey would be perpetuated and no-one would lose their job or be disgraced in their tight-knit, cliquey community. What a horrible situation, I thought and I could totally totally empathise with the man who felt powerless as a child. If he'd have spoken out , who would have believed him- it was him against a whole band of middle class men in whose interest it was to keep him quiet.

When I watch that, I wonder how low my own mother would have stooped to "keep me quiet" if I'd ever had the guts to do anything then. I feel for sure she'd have branded me mentally ill (she works in the proffession) and would have convinved people in power that I was. SHe couldn't risk having her image and her career damaged by a mere spat of a child. She would have done anything to shut me up- I feel certain of that. [Another realisation arrives-that my mother really may not have loved me ]

lisalisa- just so sad to read about your mothers behaviour. I've read that book ~(interesting you say you don't know how it appeared in your posession). Her behaviour must have been awful and so difficult to pin down. ANd of course having all the medical authorities believing your mother. SO sick. GOd, words can't express how awful her behaviour was.

I have to mention DAnae's post:

"pure rage against her neediness when MY neediness (actually archaic neediness, a neediness from infancy to be recognised, attended to, nurtured and comforted) already means that my resources are depleted, it's like I'm drowning and don't have enough oxygen for me, let alone her. To yell at her and see her crumple would somehow take the pressure of me, someone to share the 'burden'"
What a fantastic post- all of it, not just that little piece. WHen I read that I thought- that's exactly it. That perfectly describes how it is and how I feel. THank you for that DAnae for putting the elusive emotions down in black and white.
As you and ally say, we can just pause to let the moment (of anger or whatever pass) and then pat ourselves on the back afterwards for not reacting in the same way our mothers would. I pat myself on the back several times a day thesedays.
My father is on his best behaviour at the moment, and I'm only staying with him about 5 days before I move on, but even so sometimes his attitude towards my daughter is pretty shocking. And I just feel glad she can't understand some of the things he says because I think it could do some damage even in these 5 days. Just subtle things that constantly undermine her and expect her to behave as an adult would- then he ridicules her when she doesn't behave like an adult would (she's 1) THis makes me because I know this is a very watered down version of how he treated me AND without the violence of course AND its only for a short time AND my father was the better of the two parents. IT beggars belief! I always just assumed as a tiny tiny child I was treated okay, but my mother's letter detailing why she had to smack me as a baby, and now my father's attitude towards DD makes me very sad and scared for the little girl I once was again. I've had one panick attack since arriving at my father's but I stayed in my room with DD and it went away eventually.
I have to stay because I want to show DD to my brothers and grandparents. I just don't have the financial means to get a B+B, so I have to stay here while I do the visits

Thanks for anyone who managed to get through this post!!! It was good to get it all out

Sakura- My mother has tried branding me as mentally ill when we've had fall outs and she's tried to protect herself from people finding out the truth. She once tried convincing my exMIL that I was "gone in the head" and when exMIL pointed out that I seemed perfectly normal to her, my mother proceeded to try and convince her that I was putting on an act.

Ally- My lightbulb moment has been to realise and admit to myself and others that I did have a crap childhood. I do know that it's unlikely my mother will ever change but I still feel like I'm coming to terms with that fact and that I'm never going to have the relationship with my mother that I've always wanted.

My dad told me i needed to see a psychiatrist when we had a last and final almighty falling out. And now I've spoken out about my MIL, i feel like DH's family think i'm mad. I'm sure MIL is mentally disturbed but none of them can see it. Oh well, I've set some boundaries with her and it's zero tolerance of her spiteful comments. It will be interesting to see how long she can keep her mouth shut

My lightbulb moment was when i realised my mum didn't and doesn't love me and that the vast majority of the pain and suffering i felt as a child was actually caused by her and not my dad as i had thought all along. I am still shocked at how different the real picture of my family is compared to the illusion i had beleived for so long.

Also how my sisters see me is completely coloured by the influence of my parents; they don't see or know the real me at all and that is something i am still trying to come to terms with.

I realise also that i always seem to be trying to protect other people's feelings over and above my own, resulting in depression and ill health on my part. I don't speak out when people have hurt me and make excuses to myself as to why i shouldn't say anything, always thinking about the other person and not me. This is something i want to learn to change, i need to look after myself and more importantly look after my 'inner child' who has had absolutely nobody looking out for her and standing by her for all these years.

There was something i wanted to mention which may help some of you. It is in relation to feelings of rage and anger at our DC's. I have felt the same way as some of you have described in relation to my DD. At times i have felt, i am deeply ashamed to say, pure rage and hatred and anger towards her. Things improved after i came to the realisation about my mum and i thought that i was directing rage against my DD that i actually felt against my mum.

But recently things seem to have got worse again and my relationship with DD seemed distant again. I then read something in one of Alice Miller's books which said that your DC's can arouse deeply buried feelings of rage that you felt as a child towards your new born siblings and i think that is the true source of my current feelings in relation to DD. Although i can remember nothing from around the time when my middle sister was born, i was nearly 5 at the time, i know i must have felt some rage and anger towards her for taking my parents' attention away from me. I do remember my mum being so concerned and close to my middle sister, as she still is today, and in a way that was completely alien to me. I know now my mum didn't bond with me or love me and there was no closeness between us ever, and so as a child i know i must have been deeply hurt to see the closeness between my mum and middle sister and to know that my mum did not feel that way about me.

As Alice Miller says, it is not enough to have 'intellectual' knowledge about your childhood, you must also have the 'emotional' knowledge and feelings. From past experience i know that once i have had an intellectual realisation, the associated emotions are usually not far behind, usually triggered by a random event.

I'm sorry for rambling, am sure nobody has read this far, but it just helps me so much to get my thoughts out and to know everyone here is in the same boat, albeit at different stages. I hope somebody will be helped by what i've said, i always find reading other people's posts illuminating and comforting.

Thanks Sakura...I needed that saying to me about answering everyones posts just like I told Pages she didn't need too...pot calling kettle black! I think I do need to cut back...spend far too much time typing then deleting and typing and deleting and cutting and pasting

Hope you don't have much longer at your dad's, it can't be good for you being there. But I think you will benefit, as you have noticed how he treats your dd as a watered down version of how you were treated. That is valuble knowledge to work on when you get back. Must say I'm still that your mother hit you as a baby

Yes, us (on this thread) being mentally ill seems to be another theme. My mother sent a xmas card to my dh this xmas, it was a MIND one...was wondering if there was a message for him there...when I kicked up as a teenager it was me being a teenager (from 16 on?!?!) so I was obviously hormonly imbalanced to be angry with them I suppose it lets them carry on as if they are 'normal'. Always felt like I was the sane one in a madhouse...

Mampam, your halfway there then that second lightbulb moment was very important to me, and it was only on boxing day last year...

I also think talking about our feelings towards our dc is important, those feelings don't relate to our dc, but to our own childhood feelings. I know I feel anger, irritation, spitefulness towards her at times. Which is just the way my mother treated me. I just can't seem to stop feeling it. But I think I cover up the majority of the time, I hope! Seeing therapist tonight so will talk of it all again.

Oneplusone...my mil I'm sure thinks I'm strange for cutting my family out of my life. She just does not vocalise it to me. And I also suspect she thinks I'm very strange for not socialising with her and sil all the time (sil virtually lives with her!) but they are a tad bit too mental for me...so we have a stand off... luckily my dh has already had a realisation at about 12 and emotionally divorced them years ago so plenty of support and encouragment from him. Does your dh understand where you are coming from?

hello all,i came across this thread by chance.i dont feel strong enough at the moment to tell my own story, and am not in a very good way at the moment, but i was wondering would it be ok to "chat" on here once in a while?, and maybe get some advice, on a subject i very rarely talk about.....

Hey Matildax! Sorry you are not feeling great right now. Me either.

I have only just started adding to this thread although I've been reading it since it began. You can be sure of a supportive welcome

Hi Matildax - I found this thread last year when I was in a confused place. I have found so much compassion and validation here, even when I wondered whether I had any right to be here. This is really mumsnet at its best.

So many people, some with horrendous stories, some with more subtle forms of abuse. But we all have the right to be here

If we can help, we will. Just writing it down is a good start.

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