"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Still catching up... Danae at what your mother said about your DD. I think that would have been the point I cut my mother out ot my life. Well, you know how I feel about my DS1 and his SN, and am so glad your DD has you on her side.

PurpleOne, will be back to talk to you later, am so at what you have told us I am speechless. Last year was my first Christmas without them too. Just keep talking to us, that's my first tip.

There are so many valid and brilliant points been brought up. I'm also sorry if I haven't responded to ones that address me specifically. DD barely naps at all these days so I usually just have to skim.

Pages, I'm always fascinated when you write about projection and that our mothers needed us to act out the depression etc so that they could remain the "perfect" ones. And then about her fulfilling her crazy destiny now that you have split from her. I don't know if my mother is getting crazier since I stopped contact ,but I'm pretty sure she's drinking more. And one thing is for sure-my life is a LOT less crazy- much calmer. The other thing was that you said you are spending more time in "grown up" mode, and the more you do, the more bizzare she seems. I have been aiming for this since the beginning, knowing that if I could just become an autonomous adult, then I could step outside the chaos and view her with an objective eye. I think I'm more in grown up mode than child mode too

Re not teaching your son spelling- don't worry too much about that. I always suspect the narcissistic element when parents teach things to their kids. yes , we want our kids to do well and go far thats true, but that is not an altruistic way of thinking. What they do in life reflects us and if they get top marks in spelling, we get a little narcissitic rush of pleasure. Like my mother forcing me to play piano in front of guests. In my mother's last letter (the special needs one), she wrote "I even taught you French!" Now, my mother can't speak French, but I can after studying it at uni, but I have a vivid memory of her sitting with me once. the reason I have the memory is because that was the one time she did "teach me French". It was all for the self satisfaction of believing she was a good parent. Now she obviously attributes my speaking French to her .Whereas the emotional stuff that you deal with is much more difficult and there is less of a showy, narcissitic rush. Okay, we might be pleased when we see our child share or be kind, but I don't think its as self-serving as knowing that your child is in the top of the class for spelling. So what I mean is, don't beat yourself up about the spelling and reading thing.

Sakura - your mum sounds exactly the same as mine - when things are going wrong in my life, she really "comes into her own" and really tries to help me out. As soon as I am happy again, she turns back into the bitter, twisted and jealous person she is most of the time (suppose that must mean I'm happy more than I'm not which I suppose is a bonus )..

Its like she "enjoys" me having a crap time because it makes her feel useful or just not as resentful because I know the way she sees things, she's had a terrible life, most of which is my fault.

I also know what pp's have said about having more issues with having dd's. I only have one child (so far) and she was born in May this year. I was desperately hoping for a boy... I thought it was because I would feel less paranoid about my step dad sexually abusing a boy - but I know deep down that he is clearly capable of doing anything to anyone (and is and never will be left alone with any children of mine).. The real issue was not knowing how to "treat" a dd because of having no example from my mum. I used to be (and still am) so jealous of friends who have really close relationships with their mums ...you know - the ones who actually seem to like them and be friends with them. My contact with my mum is minimal and always uncomfortable and I would never spend any one on one time with her.

Sorry - am wittering on again - but so much of what has been written has struck a chord with me. I have had counselling but will look into some of the books recommended - I think my dd's birth might mean that I need some more though...

Oh yeah - and I never got taken to Stately Homes - but my mum did give up "the love of her life" for me because he didn't like kids (and went on to marry one who likes them a bit too much iykwim )

sakura- thankyou for both of those posts, they've really helped. The first one has validated what I've just started to think about my mother being childlike. I feel like as an adult and especially now as a mum myself, whenever I am with 'my' mother its like she wants 'me' to meet her needs and nurture her. It makes sense now how she used to(uhm still does)offload all her issues, especially regarding dad onto me. She'd say in order to leave him I 'had' to help her. I'd have to go to work, find a place to live and help her look after the other kids. I felt like a surrogate partner.
I was just having trouble reconciling that childlike part of her with the domineering, abusive 'know all' that is also my mother.
My mother was/is incredibly intelligent and got a first class honors degree from Cambridge, she had a bright career ahead of her as a teacher but my dad put an end to that, by having an affair and leaving her when I was 4. She followed him to London and a year later they reconciled but on the condition my mother would give up work and stay at home. Layer upon layer of seething resentment built from thereonin.

Your second post was also interesting as again my mother takes credit for anything acedemically orienated. When I'd pass exams she would never say well done but congratulate herself and say 'see that was all down to me'. Yes she was a great teacher, she did teach me to read, but she took my confidence and stomped on it, and I'd have swopped to have a mum like Pages who 'could' actually 'do' the emotional stuff anyday.

Purpleone- firstly (((((hug)))) your abuse sounds so recent and so godamn awful. It must be very very raw for you.
So yes you need to cry and tap into the pain they have caused you but then I want you to start getting mad.
Getting angry enabled me to create some boundaries for myself. Right now Im angry for you!
The thing that really angers me is they 'dare' bring your DC's into the forum of abuse and are doing it behind your back. The level of disrespect they are showing you is mind blowing!
I think you have to start strengthening yourself now. Start tapping into some anger and direct it back at them. Write them a letter and tell them 'never' to contact you dc's again 'and' that if they do you will get a restraining order.
Tell them (in so many words) how poorly they have treated you and that you are no longer prepared to accept that behaviour from them 'ever'. That 'you' refuse to be part of their miserable lives any longer. In other words emotionally you need to cut 'them' out. I think its in the book 'divorcing a parent,' that says it doesn't matter if a parent has divorced you, you can still divorce them right back'. Purpleone none of this should come from a place of spite or one-upmanship, but its you saying enough is enough and I have to take care of myself now and my dc's, it is not in 'your' best interests or that of your dc's that they are part of your life any longer.
You may need to read some more, find a therapist? Have you got a Dp to lean on or a close friend. Treat yourself to a journal and start writing. Stay close to the computer and write as much as you can on this thread.

Walk away from the idea that they have cut you out....no this is 'your' time purpleone to put your hands up and say no more. xx

Hello- Tillyscoutsmum- just cross posted with you. Cyberwave

I have been in so much doubt as to whether I should post this message or not, but here goes....
I need your opinion please. We are going to celebrate x-mas in ?my? country this year at my little sister?s house.

We (my husband really) decided to write an email from our children to my parents to say that we will be in Denmark between then and then, from my son?s email address (yes I know he is only 3 but my husband is a computer teacher ).

They replied back to me!!?? Saying that as you know you (me) will always be welcome but we would like to know when, Dad & Mum (they always write their ?names? with the first letter in capital).

?The children? write back again saying exactly the same as the first email but emphasising that it is them that is writing.

Parents then write back to me again that they look forward to seeing the children between the dates we are there, and that they are very impressed with our son?s internet skills, Grandad & Granny.

?The children? then write back again saying that we look forward to seeing you on the 27. December at 10.00am. You wrote to the wrong email address again, signed our ds and dd (and their father).

They then reply to my email address again, it would be a shame to dump the children on our front step all alone, as we have not seen ds & dd for a year and a half, so we expect MM (me) to bring them the 27. December at 12.00.

?The children and their Dad? then reply, you once again wrote to the wrong email address, but you know that.
Dd and ds will not be going on their own, they will be going with their daddy.
Explaining to them that they will be ?expecting? for a long time, because MM is not going.
As MM is not going to see her parents until they take responsibility for their behaviour in this messy situation and apologise to her, her husband and their children, there is no way she is going to visit them the 27. December.
Due to the fact that no interest has been shown to see (or hear about) dd and ds for a "very" long time, and because when you were told that dd and ds were coming to Denmark did not ask when you could then see them, but instead started on your usual little games, the 27. December 2007 at 10.00 am is an offer that can either be accepted or declined.
They will not be going on their own they will be going with their father.
If you want to see your grandchildren then see them. You will never be denied contact with them.
If you do not want to see your grandchildren then do not. You will never be asked to pretend to love them.
It is your choice, dd and ds.

They then, once again, reply to me with an email headed sorry. Dear MM, you have had confirmation November 2006. You will always be welcome, but no discussions. You are welcome the 25. December at 15.00 together with little sister, big sister and XX (their friend who always spends x-mas with them). With merry x-mas, Mum & Dad

Before you ask I have no idea what confirmation they are talking about in their last email. The email makes no sense to me or my husband.

I really, really need your (much valued) opinion on this correspondence.
I also need to point out that if it had been up to me there would have been no correspondence, and I have only helped dh translate.
The other problem is that because my little sister is taking her children to see them on the 25. December I feel it is going to be hard to explain to our children that they will not be going, but their cousins will. Because of the above correspondence DH has said, that?s it no more contact.

Purpleone. I think the first Christmas is about finding out about what you want Christmas to be about.
Ask your children what kind of traditions they would like you to have. Pancakes in the morning. Each person having a specific job (peeling potatoes, preparing carrots, decorating cookies). Maybe watching a christmas film together.
I actually found the first Christmas such a relief. It is the first Christmas where I relaxed and just enjoyed. No snide comments, no put downs, no fake laughs etc.

maisemor- just read your post. Mind games!
I am in agreement with your DH on this one in theory. They are still not accepting or respecting the boundaries you are setting are they.
In practical terms on the 25th could you arrange something special for you and DH and DC's to be doing, which would take you off and out of the house before, sis and cousins leave? Im thinking Ice skating, a show? Something you pre-arrange prior to arriving? You could explain to your sis (if you have to explain yourself to her, not sure what your relationship with her is?) that, that is something you have arranged as a special time with family to do.

With the email- to me it reads as similar to pages letter from her mum- i.e we told you you were welcome. But still on 'our' terms -as in there will be no discussions regarding the past- you nincompoop child (sorry love that one whoever posted it)

As for the 27th of Dec- what does your gut tell you? Baring in mind they are still ignoring your boundaries and slamming there own terms on you? (that's a genuine question by the way sorry maisemor not sure how that came accross)

Message withdrawn

maisemor, my first instinct while I read your post is that you are still very much wrapped up in their reality.Is it the case that you want to stay in contact with them for your children to have a relationship with their granparents? If so, why do you want them to? Is it because you still care what your parents think and don't want to be accused of keeping them from their grandchildren? It is valid to want your kids to have granparents, but I don't think they would miss out terribly if you simply didn't bother until they were older. Is it the guilt and obligation still at play here?
Or is it that you want to see your sisters. I can relate to this. I loathe the fact I have to stay away from my brothers and can't contact with them directly because my parents are always hovering around them. They are still youngish and depend a lot on my parents. In my case, I decided that I would have to sacrifice my relationship with my brothers. I love them dearly and miss them terribly and hate the fact I can't show my baby to them. I wish that I could see them, but to do that would mean I'd have to see my parents, and the damage that would do to me outweighs the pleasure of seeing my siblings. So I stay away. Is staying away an option for you? Why do you want to go home for Christmas. For Denmark itself? I can relate to that. I miss my country and would like to visit it for Christmas (there is no Christmas in Japan). But I think I can make a lovely Christmas here with my family of three and create a whole new script.

As hard as it might be, could you contemplate staying away from them this year while all of this is going on. But I completely understand if the forces that be are too strong and you feel you have to return to see them. Just realise that you have a choice. You are well within your rights to choose to fly off to India for Christmas or wherever you want, just you, DH and the kids. You don't have to go back and put up with people who can't be straight with you.

Maisemor, to be honest, to me, that sound well f*cked up ? from your side as much as theirs. I have no idea what the problem is between you and your parents, but I think you maybe made a mountain out of a molehill with the email and who it was addressed to, etc. If things need sorting out, then they need to be sorted out by adults. If things are tense between you, then why write an email from your kids saying what you feel, and then sign it from them?? Keep the kids out of it ? even at that level.

The email misunderstanding is nothing. ?If you do not want to see your grandchildren then do not. You will never be asked to pretend to love them.? Is a terribly manipulative and bitter thing to say to them ? and then so sign it from the kids?that is not on, I think. You want to provoke a response, yes, but it?s never going to be a positive one throwing stuff like that into the mix is it? How could it possibly be?

Why will it be hard to explain to your kids that they aren?t going? Are they actually expecting to go? Do they normally go? Why would they need to know their cousins are going at all?

Can you point me in the direction of the initial dispute between you and your parents, cos from the above, it?s you that seems to be acting more irrationally. Hope I'm wrong!

Monkeytrousers, the problem with toxic families is that it is hard to tell from the outside who is rational or not. We all have "hot buttons" and our toxic parents know exactly how to push them. So they might say or do something that seems okay and normal to outsiders, but only the victim can feel that their boundaries have been crossed. In fact, toxic parents are expert at making their actions seem perfect to outsiders and making their victim look like the idiot irational one. It is when my father seems the most normal that I get the most upset. He was a violent man with a foul temper who took it out on me as a little girl and yet he'll send the most normal e-mails and messages in Christmas cards, looking to all the world like a great father. The more mundane and normal the mail is, the more blindingly angry I get, because it is so far from the reality of our relationship.

Until someone gets to know all of the details (please post more maisemor), the victim very often looks like they're the one causing the problems. Either way, we have to give maisemor the benefit of the doubt and I for one believe that her parents are toxic.

Sorry just back from the physio.

I honestly don't care if people think I am justified in thinking that my parents are toxic or not. They are end of (my) story.
They have made sure that I doubt every sentence that comes out of my mouth, every thought that I have, that I don't trust anybody - especially if they give me a compliment, I can see the negative in any given situation and so on and so on.

However, I thank you for your point of view MonkeyTrousers, even though it confirms my worst fears of how the "world" sees this.
I would like to point out to you - again - though that the emails were from dh and our children, not me. I only helped him translate everything apart from the last phrase ?If you do not want to see your grandchildren then do not. You will never be asked to pretend to love them.? which he sent in English.

My dh wanted to give them a chance to see the children whilst we visit my little sister and her children for x-mas back home. I said to him I am not ready to see them. I have reached the stage where I am not shaking with anxiety/anger/stress when I see their name or a picture of them, but I don't want to see them in person. Neither do I want to see my big sister in person

I don't need to see them and I know that our children don't need to see them either.

I know all about toxic families Sakura, believe me. But like Oneplusone has bravely mentioned, they don't make us the most rational human beings sometimes either.

Toxic parents are rarely happy people themselves and are often doing to their kids what was done to them. Not that this excuses anything, just explains sometimes - and helps you to move on, which I'm glad I have done now.

I think it's important to say that you can move on from having toxic parents, as well as all the rest, it is good to know you can escape it.

and from experience that whole 'blame game' thing never ends well, it only prolongs the trauma and stops you moving on. 99% of us will get the apoligoes we want so it's good to focus on the thought of waking up one morning and not even wanting one.

My mother is the child - I am the adult.

opps, important typo alert!

"99% of us will NEVER get the apoligoes we want

So how do I set about not being my mother?

Maisemor, opinion on correspondence. Going to do this gently...unintentional gameplaying. Very very easy to slip into, something I used to do all the time. Its like going on a helter skelter...slip up and before you know it your at the bottom again!

You wrote from your children. So effectively you wrote from 'child' ego state. They naturally slip into 'parent' ego state. And then you get into a tussle and end up 'parent' to 'parent'. See here for a link to explain ego states if you have not come across them before. The attempt at email contact, like this, was always going to go badly, you basically invited them to go into their old roles again. This is something I found incrediably frustrating in being in contact with my mother, just one verbal slip up and we were treading the same old path again.

As for what to do now. Find something else to do on Xmas day with dc. Dh send email, from himself/signed by him - 'Thank you for your reply, myself and dc will be unable to make xmas day. wishing you a HNY. regards dh. And if they email back, just send back another neutral reply saying you will be unable to make it these holidays. You don't need to go into elaborate detail or lie you are just unavailable/inconvenient.

As for you mulling this over...please try not to. What will you achieve by doing that? (as my therapist said to me last week ).

How old are your dc?

Monkeytrousers, like Sakura said. MM is reflecting back the behaviour her parents taught her. Believe me its not irrational, I may well have written an email like that in the past when still in contact! As it is I still get cards and presents from my family cat so an email coming from kids is positively normal from where I come from!!

Hope your okay MM? Physio went well?

I have to amend my post...your dh spoke from 'child'. What is your dh's family background?

Still say move on from it, write it off, send email from dh re unable to make it. They are no longer a part of your life. So pleased you've stopped your anxiety at seeing pictures of them, your moving on and away from them

I personally think you did the right thing posting on here, and if you doubt what comes out of your mouth, still trust your gut feeling. I still find that hard tho, I was always told my mother/sister it was wrong!

allyxxxxxxxx

Claricebeans - become self aware. Best time to notice is times of stress ie your late, tired, irritated, busy etc if it was more subtle abuse like mine.

Then, learn to recognise your feelings of stress/beginnings of your mothers behaviour and stop it coming out of your mouth! Easier said than done. Difficult, but achievable.

Take time out for yourself on a regular basis. Use friends as babysitters/dh/dp/nursery.

See a therapist to work through childhood issues/present day problems.

Post on here

AND...don't beat yourself up when you do have a slip up. Makes you more stressed/more likely to replicate mothers behaviour. Accept you are human, apologise if needed to dc then move on.

Anyone got other hints and tips for me Claricebeans?

Message withdrawn

And you do realise if we carry on this way posting we will be out of space in less than 15 days and have to start another thread...

Next title - 'But you were clothed and fed' a thread for adult children of abusive families

How do you feel now Lennygirl?

My mother has a few NPD traits, I'm very careful not to say my dd is 'just like me'. And to enjoy it and encourage it when she is different to what I am.

Your childhood sounds pretty horrendous, I never got called a 'whore' or a 'bitch' (my sister did tho). How have you done becoming a mother yourself? Does it rake up the memories for you?

Thanks

We have got Christmas with my mother this year which I am sort of dreading.

How do you stop yourself reverting to childhood patterns? How do I stop myself feeling like the little girl who is wrong again? Why is it that if I "stick up" for my children I get trampled on? How do I explain they may think they are the best grandparents but actually they treat their dog better?