"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

I know totally what you mean about not ever feeling happy. I am the closest that I have ever been and have experienced moments of total contement over the last few months. Last year in Sept/ October I had this over all feeling of not being happy but not understanding why as I had lovely kids, lovely house, good friends etc...

Importantly I have done a lot of soul searching since my termination, I have put boundaries in place with my parents and Dh and I have talked loads. DH is a changed man since he did the Hoffman process and has stopped being the dependent person that he was. I thought so little of myself that I let him get away with so much over the years, all because I thought I was worth no more.

So now everything seems hunkydory, but underneath I know there are still demons which I need to deal with. Otherwise they will rear their ugly heads the next time my parents "do one" or as the boys get bigger and my parenting skills are called into question... or when I start working again and I have issues with my boss.

So at the end of March hopefully, if they will have me, I am doing the Hoffman process So excited it sounds life transforming, I want a life which is mine and I want to break the patterns before I give them to my kids.

its different for me kaz33, I don't feel I have any demons to sort out. What happened happened and I just get on with my life. I don't, in my case, feel like there's any point in ruminating on the way I was treated, I just have to get on with my life with MY family. I just want to feel happy thats all.

Kaz- What a lovely post. You reflect exacltly where Im at at the moment.
You must post lots of info after you do the course, let us know what you found useful.
BTW I did look at the website, but couldn't see cost? Is it expensive? If I wasnt going to be pre-occupied with a newborn I would have considered doing the course with you!

Mikafan- LOL re typing in shitty parents...hang on.....just tried it and it came up with Delia's how to cheat at cooking??
How about just googling in general, stuff on alchaholism, impact on dependants. It might trigger something for you.

I google all the time (saddo emoticon)

I looked about self esteem the other day, and it was defined as 'what you give to yourself.'
But I actually found that very useful. Because now I can think well If i tell myself that, or do that, what am I actually giving to myself?

So think of that in the context of what you were saying Mikafan as regards 'it wasnt that bad really'. What is that giving yourself? It's denying your feelings which are real, just as your mum would do?

Its not really denying my feelings smithfield its just that whats happened has happened and I can't change any of it so I don't really think for me there's any point on dwelling on it or trying to understand why my parents treated me as they did. I don't want to confront them about it so its down to me to just get on with life with my DH and DC, especially since I've made the decision to have nothing more to do with my parents anymore.

Message withdrawn

mikafan,I didn't mean to suggest you are 'in denial' per se. Sorry if that is how it came accross. Not what I meant at all. But just trying to give you insight into what has helped/is helping me to move along. And all I can say is with that the sadness seems to be dissipating.

I honestly dont think confrontation 'has'to be part of it at all. It's just something that happened with me a few years after the therapy sessions I had.

On the other hand, as Danae says, I do believe investing some time into looking at what impact my childhood had on me and what I took from it with me into adulthood is vital. Unfortunatly that does involve some delving.

Thats ok Smithfield. I just don't think that its 'me' to look into the past, I just want to get on with living in the here and now and future but to be happy, maybe its just me not to be too up and down emotionally

Hello
Little Bella
Hi, and good for you for
embracing your truth. I'm sorry about your parents and their inability (for whatever reason) to be effective parents.
I agree about counseling and the 'stigma' that seems to persevere-however much progress has been made in recent years.

Kaz
Acknowledging anger may be enough without physically displaying it...to start?
I would caution about directing it towards anyone (or even a pet/animal) because that would be approaching a threshold of repeating the cycle...??? The towel solution makes sense, and my first thought came with Pages' suggestion:
"Crap _ !!!" (times 3). For me it was crap mother, but now it is crap Middle Sister.
That is gooooood verbalization of feelings.

Danae
Conditioning: I know what you mean. Part of it for me is doubting myself...like the right answer is exactly opposite of my initial impression.
Good for you for finding a way to get feelings out-in communication. DH had a book (a long time ago) about communications and arguments and one thing he told me was from it suggested opening communications with a simple: "I have a message to give you" statement. That gets (his attention, for one ,) but also gets my brain-to-tongue connection going in word world.
I feel a missing chunk too.
Good luck with nail biting...try nice hand lotion and massage your hands, fingers, and with your thumb-caress the nails/cuticles on the same hand (replace the bad habit with a good habit strategy). Be nice to them as you are being good to yourself in facing self reflection to improve your life.

Mikafan
Happy...for me the moments of true jubilant joy are brief (10 seconds sometimes?) and rare. It is like someone is saying "ok, there it is-happiness-now move on"...next. So contentment is happiness for me-the foundation anyway. Dc do well, I am pleased, and "happy"-(and happy for them).
Being alone a lot, and brought up unloved/invisible- I realized that my happiness is up to me-which is perhaps a perk of so much solitude-I know for sure my happiness is not dependent on others-unlike my Middle Sister. A beautiful sunrise = happiness for me. The first daffodil bloomed in my garden yesterday = happiness. Finish a quilt (I SHALL get the sewing machine out today!!!) = great happiness. Those may be trivial to others, but that is irrelevant to me. Self reflection, finding the definition of ourselves, gives the opportunity to choose what makes us happy without regard to anyone else's opinion on the matter.
If the Toxic Parents book is not quite right for you, try "Surviving Borderline Parents" which is about parents who could be considered 'sort of' toxic but not always-the gray muddled area. It talks about personality types and how each type may err in parenting. I am also recommending Emotional Intelligence, because that is what I'm reading now and it is fascinating.

Smithfield "tracing the path back" is an important connection. The examples remembered are validating even if the wierd examples come to mind at 4am-in the middle of the night when the physical body is relaxed. That was discussed here before and it made a ton of sense to me. I don't get 'revelations' every night, just once in a while. - Self reflection has helped stop my play back reel. (Or perhaps my recovery time is being reduced significantly). I still review conversations-this weekend- and 'oh, why did I say that-that way?' I thought I saw the glances around after I said it... oh dear they are ridiculing me. Well, I'm at the point of 'so what' or 'well, I'm working on it'...detaching from what they (the other moms) think. Letting it go a little easier-rather-I am making progress in stopping kicking myself for every little thing.

Still crossing fingers for you, Smithfield. My doc said they'd only let me go 2 or 3 days over, then induce. I guess there is a chance the birth could happen on 29 Feb, which would be an unusual birth date.
And Ally-13 days over-I didn't mean to not mention for your waiting ordeal, sorry.

Thanks toomanystuffedbears. I will look those books up. Doing cross-stitch gave me a feeling of contentment Don't get time anymore what with working full-time and 3 DC at home when I get back.

hanaflower- Hello there.

'What I definitely didn't want to do was blame anyone...'

Takes some doing, but its a healthier perspective and allows us to move on more quickly I think.

BTW- is it only 1000 posts we have til we run out of thread again?

Mikafan - it isn't me either to look into the past, after all it wasn't really that bad either . That is why I found the one counselling session that I had really annoying. However, the books that I read just sort of made sense - and certainly has helped with my parenting of the kids. I have had moments of revelation when I realised that the things I did with my kids were just old repeated patterns from my childhood. Even though I have put in some boundaries and don't see much of the parents their influences still affect how I live my life and the decisions that I make every day. Sometimes our rebellion against their beliefs and patterns are still tied to the past - we are not as free as we think.

Smithfield - the course is a stunning £2,300 - that's our summer holiday and me going back to work hopefully very shortly. But then it I can turn my back on it all and build better relationships with my family, friends and even my parents then it will have been so worth it

Looking back to find the source seeds of why we have difficulties as adults helps give an explanation that is satisfying intellectually. It really isn't about blame, it is about 'why', or 'how' did our present circumstance (perhaps of not being able to express feelings for example) come to be. This will help us improve ourselves as adults, as parents, even if the improvement is 1 percent-our lives will be better and our children's lives will be better.
It is hard, mikafan. It is painful and a dark road to travel. I can not say it is absolutely necessary to examine the childhood to be able to heal from it, as I am not a professional in this field. But without doing so, 'just getting on with it' may seem superficial or hollow at some point which may indicate a key point of the circumstances has been missed (through childhood training - I use 'brainwashing'). "Just get over it" or "Just get on with it", IMHO, diminishes ourselves-as if we are not important enough to go back to find the key for the foundation of our truth. Brushing all of that aside, whether it is denial or not, is a coping mechanism that may simply indicate one is not ready to involve one's self (time and emotion) in deep self reflection.

kaz- Holidays are short term, the course is for your long/long term happiness. It seems to have done wonders for your DH.
Not many would invest in improving their quality of life in this way.
Always tends to be the more superficial stuff, new car, bigger house...etc.
Those things doent make you happy though. Unless you are an annoyingly sorted person of course

Toomany- How are you coping? Im ok, fairly, chilled. but think Im in denial about having to cope with 'two' in a very short while. I think this may be the case because otherwise I'd be a lot more stressed about bub seeming to be perfectly happy staying put.

Hi
Danae-the 'script', or programming from parents can also reach up out of the grave, believe it or not (my parents are deceased). Often Middle Sister says, "Dad would've been proud." Even though that is a positive statement it shows the influence. Often I hear, "What would Dad have done?"
I am expecting her to (at some point) refer to "Dad knew this was going to happen"-we sisters not staying close after he died. (He knew it because he knew her, tbh.) I have not cut contact with her completely, but say 'no' without hesitation now-managing her more successfully.

Speaking of Middle Sister, she called me Sunday. She had a visit from her girl friend who I think knows, and respects, my point of view (without me ever talking to her) because it seems this friend presses MS's reset button. MS was kind and attentive to me-how am I doing, etc. She explained she was going to some sort of baby warehouse store to shop for her pg friend and that is why she wanted to know if I wanted anything before (to clear up my thinking, I suppose, of her having a power play, rescuing me with material goods...more license to control me?).
"Nope, still don't need anything."
And she has my birthday present boxed up and it is ready to be mailed. I said "...may as well wait and bring it with you (when baby comes)." I didn't say anything else about it.
I conceded to call her when the baby comes-asked if it'd be ok to call her at work. "Then you'd better give me your work number." This was another story-but she had to be surprised that she hadn't given me that info before now (another control point). Still, dd can do it.
End of the call: When she is leaving my house, she usually says "Looks like I have things under control, so she'll leave me to it"--an employee review. On the phone she said: "Well, keep up the good work." Same type of thing... I spontaneously gave it back to her-and said "Well, you keep up the good work, too." That made her pause (if I may have the pleasure and say it was a jolted pause, if that sort of thing can be detected over the phone) and she didn't respond with the usual 'will do' and just said 'talk to you later'. Hello, TMSB is not subordinate to MS. Earth to MS...

Smithfield-I try not to...
No, I try to remain positive. I have access to the best doctors and technology (perhaps) on the planet. My dh will take care of me, etc. I try to coach myself into being relaxed about it-no worries...talk about denial . Anyway, it is going to happen, let it happen, and get it over with.
Guess I ought to pack my bag today, lol. We live 1/2 mile from the hospital so dh can run back and forth-literally on foot if he wanted to (he is not one to like to hang around the hospital anyway).
Having two underfoot is certainly more of a "living in the present" situation. I am apprehensive about having 2 hormonal teenagers 'underfoot' (in my ear!) while having infant induced fatigue. I'll be checking that second hand on the clock-time will keep going and it'll pass.

Hi Hanaflower
Welcome, and good for you for wanting clarity for your life, too.

I was talking to my DH about some things that came up yesterday and he feels for me to get over my childhood (though I still disagree I need to "get over" anything) I have to find me/who I am. He thinks the best way would be for me to meditate. Has anyone else tried this? How the hell do you find you? Big questions hey for breakfast time

Hi all, sorry i haven't posted for a while. Have been very busy with family stuff (DH away abroad on a business trip, then I had a holiday - my first proper holiday for 5 years - I'm back now but the kids are sick ).

I don't have a lot of time but i was wondering if any of you think that the 'drama' triangle would apply with my DH's family too. It's a long story which i have mentioned a few times already on here but like many of you i seemed to have leapt straight from my toxic families clutches into my toxic MIL's clutches and i think i have now managed to 'extricate' myself from 'their' (in law's family) drama triangle but only by, once again, becoming the 'persecutor'. I have basically told the truth to my husband about his toxic mother, all the nasty things she has been saying to me over the years. I had a meeting with her at the weekend where i basically confronted her with all she had said to me and she was supposed to be apologising but true to her toxic form at the same time as offering me insincere apologies she spewed some more of her poison at me. I told DH that she is a nasty piece of work and to my utter surprise he didn't say a word to defend her. She has been told she is now on 'trial' and if she utters even one word out of line to me then....well we haven't actually discussed what happens if she doesn't watch her vicious tongue but i think DH knows that i am at the point where i will force him to choose between his mother and me if she continues her toxic ways.

The problem is i know enough about toxic people (as you all do) to know that they simply can't help themselves, they can no more stop their toxic behaviour than they can stop breathing. So i know that my MIL will sooner or later let a toxic comment slip. But DH in his innocence and ignorance and blind faith in his mother thinks she will somehow overnight be able to stop the nastiness that she has been handing out for the the past 45 years or so (ie since she has been married/had children).

The fact is now that i have 'divorced' both my parents and not only have survived but am so much happier and contented than i ever was with them in my life it would be nothing in comparison for me to 'divorce' my MIL but i don't see how i can do that without my DH's co-operation. Or is my only option to divorce DH in order to free myself of his mother?

I am also worried about MIL's influence on my DD. They are very close and i don't want her picking up MIL's toxic ways, particularly as she gets older.

Mikafan, hi and welcome to the thread. I am a 'devotee' of Alice Miller. I suggest you get some of her books, the most well known being 'The Drama of the Gifted Child'. Her books can be quite heavy going (luckily they are not very long!) but i have found all i need to know in her books.

I would also highly recommend her book 'The Truth Will Set You Free' which you may want to read first as it's a lot easier to understand than some of her other books which are aimed at psychtherapists and counsellors. Take care and keep posting. x

hanaflower, hello and welcome to you too. I would also recommend you read Alice Miller. I think you are on the right track,ie you do have to go back to your past and your childhood in order to be 'free' of it as an adult.

Back soon, take care, x

www.alice-miller.com

Thanks oneplusone, I'll take a look at those. I'm sorry to hear about your MIL. I actually like my MIL a whole lot more than I like my own mum which is just as well considering we live with her

I'm very sorry to do this but I'm going to have a major rant just to make myself feel better.

I just wonder if my bloody mother will ever cease to amaze me? I'll give some background into the most recent of fallings out with her, which started at Christmas. I started the argument, which I know I should have just kept my mouth shut but I just couldn't contain myself anymore. Basically myself,dh and stepdad went for a lunchtime drink at the local pub on Christmas day, where I was told by the landlady that my older brother had got engaged to a woman he'd only known for approx. 8 weeks.

Let me give you some background info on my brother. He's 33. Two previous marriages (think he may still be married to the second wife). Four children by three different women, that we know of anyway. There are rumours that he has even more children that we don't know about, dotted about the place.
He has never ever been faithful to any woman (and believe me there have been quite a few). He once walked out the door on his second wife whilst she was writhing around in agony having a miscarriage, to be with another woman. He's a compulsive liar. He gets into huge debts and has given my parents address so they've had bailiffs call round on several occasions. And the list goes on. When he met and got engaged to the latest floozy he was still living with his ex girlfriend, (they had supposedly split up but from what she said they were still sleeping with each other), and their then 6month old baby.

Anyway the day of the argument, when we got home from the pub I asked my mother if it was true and she immediately jumped to his defence and I just flew off the handle. Don't get me wrong I know that what my brother does with his life is nothing to do with me, although I don't agree with him living with his ex, keeping her in limbo whilst he's off shagging other people but thats not the point. The point is, the fact that my mother supports my brother no matter what he does. No matter who he hurts along the way. No matter how he treats her. Does she do the same for me? Does she hell. I consider myself to be a good person, kind and always putting others before myself, the complete opposite to my brother but I'm obviously not good enough for her. She puts me down no matter what I do, good or bad. If I had gotten engaged to someone after only knowing them for 8 weeks she would have come down on me like ton of bricks and this is what really pisses me off.

Anyway after our argument at Christmas I made it perfectly clear to her that I do not want to talk about my brother with her or have her try to convince me that he is the victim in his breakup with his ex. Still she continues to tell me how wonderful he is. She won't give it a rest.