"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

now if only you had a sister not a brother...sounds similar to the relationship sil has with mil...sil just split up with dh of 9 mths, after we suspect seeing him behind her previous ex h back. He was introduced to us a week after her divorce (they separated 9 mth previous to that). Oh and her first dp who she had first dd with, she slept with his best mate and did my dh best mate 'favours' before she broke up with him...and the mil believes it is all the other blokes fault, always...and cuts them out of any pictures she has of them...same happens to any best mates she falls out with...she's a bit like Trotski, rewrites history!

My dh opted out years ago (lucky him) he emotionally divorced them quite young and now watches with a certain detached amusement all that goes on...we have concerns for her dd's but nothing we can do unfortunately.

FWIW your db sounds like a first rate git. gf miscarriaging and leaving her in pain...does he have a heart? Your right to feel angry. At his behaviour, and your mothers defense of him. But there is nothing you can do. Your mum is choosing not to see what is going on. Anyone with their feet firmly in reality would condemn his actions. Your db is treating your parents with the respect they deserve, none.

Perhaps time to just take a break from them? This cannot be doing your self esteem any good seeing what your db is doing and your mother then condeming you for I'm sure, terrible crimes against humanity! And putting other people before yourself is a sure sign of the damage your mother has done to you. Not saying your not kind, caring etc...just sometimes we need to learn to put ourselves first because our parents never did.

Vent some more if you want. Anger is good.

Sorry, I meant Stalin not Trotski, I must have missed that lesson in history oh and sil was engaged to new bloke one week after the divorce...

Danae, I found the bit you wrote about your feelings towards your DD when you are depleted emotinally very illuminating:

"pure rage against her neediness when MY neediness (actually archaic neediness, a neediness from infancy to be recognised, attended to, nurtured and comforted) already means that my resources are depleted, it's like I'm drowning and don't have enough oxygen for me, let alone her. To yell at her and see her crumple would somehow take the pressure of me, someone to share the 'burden'"

My mother, I am certain, feels this way and has always felt this way towards me. She has always wanted me to just grow up and stop being needy so that she can lean on me. But she doesn't do anger (ever) apart from cold stony silences. What you wrote made me realise that because she can't just yell and scream at me she manipulates instead, but certainly she manages to make me "share" her feelings of loneliness, emotional deprivation, etc by getting others in the family on her side against me, so that I carry these feelings of loneliness for her.

Thing is, it has backfired on her this time, because I am not lonely as I was when I was a child, and really did rely on her and the others to be there for me. I couldn't leave the family, ie run away from home because where would I go? But now I have DH and my DC, friends, inlaws (fortunately nice ones apart from slightly neurotic SIL), a job - I am truly independent of her now, whereas she has managed to cut off the biggest source of support that she ever had.

(Of course she doesn't see any of this as her fault so she wouldn't see it that way).

Mikafan, funnily enough I have always been quite a happy person, mainly I think because I have always been able to express myself,talk to people and get inspired by them, as well as self-reflect and discover the things that will make me happy on my own, ie I have written in a diary for years and always loved reading and walking and exploring, since I was a child and managed to come to "conclusions" about myself whilst doing these things. I suppose it is a form of spirituality, oneness with myself. Somehow, despite the legacy of pain from my family I have developed resilience and an ability to enjoy life, but this has also involved many years of reading and counselling in relation to my past.

I too would recommend Alice Miller.

Like many of you, I do find I get low since having children and I think that is because of the tiredness, daily grind "groundhog day" as Sakura described it, and the limits to my freedom (being unable to just take off and do my own thing when I want to, especially with DS1 being disabled). But I know that this is a "reactive" depression rather than anything inbuilt, and I am always telling myself things will be easier in the future. I do look to the future a lot and find things to aim and aspire to.

Mampam, I think you are going to have to detach yourself and find some acceptance of the fact that you are treated differently from your brother (as am I - younger brother is golden child and it was his and my mother's pandering to my SIL, his wife (as an extension of him) that kicked things off with me and my family.

Welcome Hana, keep posting.

well, I am still here (tapping fingers, whistling).

Had a bit of a scare y'day. I had an antenatal appointment and the midwife thought the heartbeat was too low, so they sent me straight to the hospital for monitoring. I was there for 4 hours.

Everything is fine though- so no need to worry thank goodness!

I felt really sad yesterday though There I was on my way to hopsital and I suddenly thought, Ive got no-one in my family to contact, should anything happen. It just felt very .

But I just tried to focus after that on those that were there for me and always have been....Dh turned around and came straight home from work so he could be with me and MIL (despite my flakiness over her)Looked after ds at home. She had tidied up for me and given ds his tea, bless her, by the time we got back.

So I guess I just need to keep reminding myself that although you can be related to people and they are blood,they can have such little regard for you that you really have to question them having any place in your life.

Case in point my sister who has never rang once during this entire pregnancy.

I think I am facing up to my biggest fear here because I always felt like they would abandon me if I stepped out of line. I was so fearful of that.

That is now happening through choice and I am working through it.

Still feel the pain keenly at times, but at least Im moving away from thinking that pain in itself is a negative thing.
Or the only way to kill or ease that pain is to call them and paper over the cracks. What I would normally do.
I'snt that addictive behaviour? It's too painful being without the true source of pain and so you keep going back.

Im trying to tell myself instead that, its ok to feel pain, anger, resentment. Provided I acknowledge it (not bury it), deal with it and then I can move on.

Glad to hear you are still hanging on in there Smithfield. It's horrible I know when you think of the sort of support you should be getting at such a special time. Thinking of you and sending virtual hugs x

I was thinking of you yesterday Smithfield, had noticed you had not posted and wondering if your waters had broken, hoping to see a post today saying you had had the birth you wanted this time round

There is pain in parting from family, but in the long term it is what you gain from that pain of the parting of ways. You get yourself back, and your family (dh, ds, dbaby) get you back too if that makes sense. I felt sadness after my dd was born that there was no one to ring or rather I wanted to ring. I texted all my mates instead but would have been nice to post on this thread instead if it had been round! So perhaps you can tell us instead of your family? Not the same...but still, I'm really looking forward to hearing your (and TMSB!) experience (what you want to share of it ) and how the baby is doing and how well you did to go through labour

Really glad everything was okay today at hospital...hugs for the scare xx

Hi
Hugs Smithfield, it couldn't possibly be long now. I glad your scare was superficial and not serious.

I am glad for you that you have a really nice husband and that mil is stepping in to help with your ds. Hopefully things will be smooth sailing for her being distracted by ds, and thus soothe for you as well.

My mil hasn't called once during my pregnancy either. I don't think she found out until past the half way point due to dh's family's dysfunctions - his parents don't get along well. Open hostility has been managed into a system of avoidance or limited exposure. So my fil has known since very early on-he is dh's best friend but honored my wish to keep it under his hat until after the amnio test was done. None of dh's sisters have called either, but then again I wasn't expecting them to. The 512 miles between our homes are 512 blessings .

I used to have a chronic dream of being homeless. I guess that is my version of being abandoned from being ignored/dismissed as a child. Interesting, I have not had that dream in quite a while. I think maybe the pain is a smoke screen to keep us in our place...just have courage and step right through it- it will probably spontaneously dissipate.

Middle Sister has officially moved to the "Victim" spot on the triangle. We were both on the "Persecutor" spot, when I jumped off altogether...Oops-she didn't see that coming.
MS called Oldest Sister (OS has emotionally detached from her) and said I had not talked to her very much about my pregnancy. And MS mentioned her coming only on weekends to help me as opposed to OS's stay of 10 days or however long I need her. MS dismisses the fact that OS is a NURSE! Oh, poor MS, I can not, (will not) give her the attention she needs during my pregnancy or after I give birth. Hormones kicking in seem to stir this stew a bit more recently.

DH is home and we are arranging to have our basement finished. We decided to not do a rush job and wait for the birth (also to see if everything went ok and not run into $$$ needs from the baby). Got to go now and help with the drawings, etc. like my brain is in good shape to do this sort of thing right now, rotfl.

Good luck Smithfield, thanks Ally and Pages and everyone. Sakura- hope your trip was a success and not too horrible with a little one on such a long trip (TMSB wondering when you'll be back?).

soothe----smothe
on not calling-meant my mil hadn't called (either)...

I forgot to mention that MS announced that my birthday present is packed and ready to mail to me. Her friend must have coached her on that one as well. I said "don't bother mailing it, just bring it with you when the baby comes" and let it drop. Whatever. Another demonstration of dismissiveness and a MS power play over TMSB's original thought.
What should I do? Refuse it? delicious thought. Open it, be apathetic about it-what ever it is- because it is really a power play and I shouldn't react to it. My feelings have been shut down so long, I can do a perfect stone face with no trouble at all, I assure you. She'll say something and I can then tell her "Well, thanks MS, for your power play at my expense on the occasion of my birthday-I told you I didn't want a gift, just a card." And maybe a little extra dig: "And no, I'm not surprised."

? apparently.

I feel strong temptation to 'go along'. I want to resist that, but at this sensitive time for me it'll be hard. I can, I know I can, reduce my responsiveness to her though. I feel pretty sure that I am far enough along my journey to actually not be able to do full blown 'Happy Hockey Sticks' with her any more because I now understand the ramifications of doing so. I've never been an actress.

Hi there- Thanks for the lovely thoughts and posts.

Ally- that really helps to remind myself of the reason behind all this.
Had a bit of contact too recently which never helps I guess. Presents, cards etc for Ds's birthday. Just serves as a reminder.

I am just jumping on quickly to say I am being induced tommorrow (they will only allow ten days here).
So I may be MIA for a few days . will come back and let you know soon.

Take Care All, and thanks again for all your unwavering support. At least with your help I have reached my main goal of a mother free birth!

OH Smithfield, tomorrow? That's so exciting. Will be thinking of you.

I had a sudden (rare) moment of feeling really sorry for my mother today and what she is missing out on, imagined her feeling lonely and sad. And then I remembered something Alice Miller said in one of her articles on her website (thanks Oneplus for the link). She was talking specifically about forgiveness and she said "Why should this woman, after showing her concern for her mother for thirty years, forgive her crime, when that mother had never made the slightest effort to see what she had done to her daughter?"

And I thought that why should I feel sorry for my mother, when neither she or my brothers and sister have given me one ounce of consideration for all the pain and hurt they put me through - if they had in any way thought of me at all in the aftermath of what happened two years ago, then they would have showed it and apologised. It's like I said before, none of them actually cares about me when I am hurting, they never have. I will always get a rolling of the eyes when I cry, whereas my mother will always get compassion. So I think I will save my compassion for myself.

I hope that you will do the same, Smithfield and that you and your DH have a wonderful birth and welcoming of your new little family member.

Smithfield - big hugs, hope everything goes brilliantly tommorow and you get a great birth.

I had a traumatic birth with my first (because of medical reasons) and managed to have a hard work but lovely birth with my second. It healed the pain of the first birth. On my birth notes it said "mother held baby and cried" - tears of joy and exhaustion I hope you to get some closure on your horrendous first birth.

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Lisalisa like most people who post on this thread, we are all scared of turning into our mothers. You are bound to have some of the same attitudes as your mother as you were brought up by her, I think as long as you can recognise those attitudes or behaviours you'll be ok. I strive to be nothing like my mother especially with regards to my dc's. This may sound a little silly but I have asked my dh to look out for signs of my mother in me. If I act in an unreasonable way such as that my mother would he just politely tells me and I quietly reflect on my actions.

Why do you feel that motherhood has become increasingly difficult for you in recent years?

Hi

I dip into this thread from time to time. I think the relevance to me is probably evident from some of my postings in 'relationships'.

Just wondering if any of you have experience of HPD in relation to toxic parenting you have experienced.

I'm thinking about HPD in relation to me and my neediness. Authoritarian fathers are a possible feature according to what I have read. Mine was certainly so.

Anyway, just interested to hear if any of you have the same kind of issues and have maybe had an HPD diagnosis??

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Smithfield, best of luck!!! Really excited for you...you may be in hospital now puuuusssshhhhh!!!!!!! Or has someone said that already xxx

Lisa, I read the same book, I found it horrifying...and your mother did the same...ye gods... she sounds very traumatic to be around even now. Also want to repeat what Mamazon said why is it difficult as your children grow up?

Pages, just want to repeat that quote

"Why should this woman, after showing her concern for her mother for thirty years, forgive her crime, when that mother had never made the slightest effort to see what she had done to her daughter?"

to let it sink in. Also, are you getting what you need out of this thread still? Personal question, I know...but I think I know you quite well by now I just can imagine to summerise 30 pages is a challenge...I know a thread has to have an 'owner' but could this become a free for all? I think we all rub along fine...and it would give you a chance to relax rather than think 'I've got to go summerise stately homes now...' Well, speaking for me, taking notes is my least favouraite thing...maybe you enjoy it...in which case I'll just go do the washing up

Hi dividedself, welcome! Do you mean Histrionic PD? Not had much to do with that one as yet...have you been officially diagnosed or self diagnosis? I fit into obcessive/schizoid/borderline/narcassitic....but that was after an online test I like a bit of variety. Do you see a therapist? Or are you just starting to realise your childhood issues?

Hi, all, hope you're all feeling ok today, especially smithfield, looking forward to hearing how it all went and whether it's a blue or pink one!

I'm going through a stage of reassessment (sp) at the moment. I know it is as a result of recovering my self esteem and sense of self as a result of this long road i am travelling down. One of my best friends said some very hurtful things to me a few weeks ago and although she apologised straightaway, and said it was due to PMT, break up with her boyfriend etc, I am no longer sure whether i want to continue our friendship. In the past if she ever said anything hurtful to me (which admittedly wasn't very often) I would just ignore it, but now i can't. But i don't know what to do, her apology doesn't actually erase the nasty things she said and i still feel very hurt by her. I think i'll just let things lie for a few weeks and then see how i feel.

I am due to go and see my sister next weekend and in the past she has also said some quite hurtful things to me which i intend to try and speak to her about. Also DH has said things to me which i will have to speak to him about. When i think about it, there are only 2 people i know who have never, as far as i can recall, said anything hurtful or toxic to me, ie my other best friend and my youngest sister.

My counsellor said that when people say these sorts of things it's never because of 'you', it's always 'them', they are 'acting out' their own issues on you which i can see quite clearly now with the various people who have said hurtful things to me. I am amazed at how differently and clearly i am seeing things now, i feel i am far less 'emotionally blind' now than i was before.

To those of you who like Alice Miller, i would very highly recommend 'The Truth Will Set You Free - Overcoming Emotional Blindness and Finding Your True Adult Self'. (I think i bought it second hand from amazon, they don't seem to have new copies in stock.) It's far easier to read and understand than her other books and reading it i feel enabled me to make a real breakthrough on my journey.

Hi Ally90 and thanks for the welcome.

I've had some therapy after coming out of an abusive relationship. It was this relationship, I think, that allowed me to start taking a look at my own childhood and my behaviour as an adult.

Subsequent relationships have left me realising that I have some major issues with my personal relationships.

I do mean Histrionic personality disorder. I have done online tests and have considered that I may be NPD (narcissistic PD) but the more I move on from the abuse the more I am questioning where exactly it is I am going wrong.

I had thought Bipolar but although there is a cycle of depression that is ever present, it is at its worse when relationships begin to become close or if they end. This fits with HPD.

I am really none the wiser but hey ho!

Lisalisa - that sounds a terrible childhood, the lightbulb moment is liberating but also scary. She sounds a bit like my sister in law, her incredibly robust and healthy only daughter has already had two health scares. I want to shake my brother by the testicles and say wake up.

HPD is a new one on me, I certainly had the authoritarian father.

I have been pushing back the boundaries and am now just concentrating on letting my parents (who are perfectly capable and do love their grandson's) have access to their grandkids. Other than that I am not responding to my mother other than in a totally civil way - she is starting to look for an opening. At the moment it is look at us, look at all the fabby things we have, look at our holiday in Vienna, our trip in Calfornia Any way I reckon if I let them have access to their grandkids we might not get written out of the potentially substantial inheritance

Mine was 'there weren't many kids had as much as you had and went on holiday abroad every year' whilst very rarely being cuddled, kissed and feeling like the black sheep for bed wetting, not to mention being bullied through school and not feeling able to tell my mum about it.

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Lisalisa - my journey (which started at the end of last year) involved reading some books to get some info/validation that things were not right. Toxic parents is a good starter, I particularly liked "If you had a controlling parent" or the brilliantly titled "If you and your mother cannot be friends". Goto Amazon - look up Toxic parents and then look at the recommendations until you find something that looks interesting.

The other bit has been trying to be a better parent to my boys - I stopped being so controlling, tried listening - I have had some successes but also some setbacks.

In addition I have started to take control of my relationships with my parents and accept that I cannot change them, all I can do is my reaction to them. Mostly I don't think of them as all powerful and capable of damaging me as I used to - now I see them as a bit pathetic and sad. Of course it still hurts, but i am concentrating on getting my self esteem back bit by bit.

Lisalisa you're being very hard on yourself. Anyone would find it very hard with 5 children and thats without having to deal with the sort of childhood you had.

You are seeking information, trying to get to grips with what has happened to you in the past for not only yourself but for your children too. Sounds to me like you are a fantastic mother already .

I hope you find the information you need.

Hi Tori32 and welcome.

Sounds like emotional neglect to me. I suspect there is more to tell? Please do if you feel up to it. You've done well to post for the first time

Dividedself - Why do you need a PD (I mean that in a think about it way )? It is not important as getting therapy for your childhood. If you have a PD chances are your therapist would not tell you anyway, but work with you through your issues and gradually the PD will work its way out. Pages knows more, she had BPD. You obviously have insight into your personality which is a blessing and is the way forward. And as for your behaviour worsening around break ups...well any stressful situation brings my mother out in me, unfortunately...you may have desertation issues that make you extremely emotional etc and when the button is pressed, hey presto...back to being 6 years old or whenever. What is important is that you are being very brave to face up to your childhood. And that is a big step forward for anyone.

So what to do next, get a book or two (Toxic Parents - Susan Forward, any by Alice Miller) and see about a therapist (if you can afford it) for your childhood issues, as that is where your current problems will stem from (most I should think...). Keep POSTING here We are all experienced to some degree with what you are currently going through and sharing experiences helps validate us all. Perhaps you might like to post a bit about your childhood if you feel up to it?

And don't forget, you can ignore all or any of the above

Oneplusone - why did you not mention Alice Miller before? Her website is brilliant I must follow more links! She sounds just like us...maybe we should gate-crash? I can agree about hurtful comments from friends. Good luck with speaking to your sister and dh about their comments as well. You sound like you've just had the blinkers removed!

Lisa - At least you are acknowledging things are not right. That shows you have insight and are not like our mums or your mum! Try not to be too hard on yourself, acknowledge your faults and understand it is because you did not get what you needed as a child. Then acknowledge and apologise to your child. Do you get any time for nurturing yourself? Any chance of therapy? Self help books? Your doing a good job by coming on here and caring enough to do so. It takes a lot of bravery to acknowledge your childhood and problems with being a mum. Just think in baby steps. One tiny step at a time...As for Munchausens, well apparently abuse by siblings does not exist... ask me and Toomanystuffedbears about that! Just because it has been disproved does not mean any of your abuse happened. I suppose when our parents say it the abuse did not happen that powerfully invites us to think we imagined it...when many psychologists (or whatever) say a condition does not exist... The abuse inflicted on you does not need a name, at some point I'm sure the psychologists will get their finger out and do some more tests or whatever and give it a new name or merge it with some other condition...until then, I would carry on reading up storys that are similar to your's, that way you will get some validation for what you went through.

TMSB - So now Smithfield is well on her way, hopefully its a short labour when are you due if you don't mind saying? Have you got your 'gift' yet from ms? Liked your post the other day...I remember nodding along to it...but can't see it now cause I just pressed review... Did you know there is no such thing as sibling abuse? Never thought to mention, I tend to focus on my mum mainly. Must say I was quite shocked, I consider my sisters abuse equal to my mothers...

Yes, Ally, but as your sister was a child too, it was your mum's job to stop your sister's abuse not to join in with her.

Thank you for the permission not to answer everyone's posts! No I don't feel I "own" the thread, but my inner child feels it's a bit like standing in the middle of the school playground and saying "Does anyone want to play with me?" and then having loads and loads of lovely people comeing up and saying "Yes, I will" and then me going off and eating my sandwiches in a corner. Can't do it, it would be too ungrateful!

I still find this thread hugely interesting. But it is hard sometimes to keep up and I often feel I should be doing other things - so if it's okay with you all I will let someone else start the next one