"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

[Pages]

This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Hi smithfield,
A bit of both really, am feeling strong and have no doubts that I've made the right decision but do occasionally feel guilty but I try not to dwell on it Problem is on the way to collect my DS2 from after school club I drive about 2 minutes away from where she lives and I can't fail to not think about her but its never good thoughts as you can imagine I was thinking yesterday actually that if asked I bet she couldn't count on one hand the nice/supporting things she's ever said to me. Through the whole time I was growing up she's never given me any advice or guided me in any way, shape or form, I've had to be independent from an early age and made all my own decisions. I am such a different parent to mine its like the difference between black and white.

SMithfield- as if I would go without saying goodbye
I think I'll meet up with my father- my need for him to see my daughter is overwhelming. But with my mother that need is non-existent. Tells me a lot, really. My father has made some symbolic efforts since my marriage- he conceded to visit me for the Japanese ceremony. He decided just 3 weeks before it was held so could only get about 5 days off work at such short notice, so he lost out on the chance of seeing this beautiful country. I'm not ready to invite him back for a while. He should have supported me from the start and planned his holidays properly shouldn't he!!

BAck soon

Hi Smithfield and all,
No, no, no Smithfield. You go first, really, please. TMSBs holding door for Smithfield, and then fluffing pillows for her. Please get through the birth safely, Smithfield: I'm thinking of you and rooting for you.

I'm trying to think less about Middle Sister and more about the birth and having an infant again. I have a couple of up to date books I am reading for that and have (ok-am trying to ) put down 'Emotional Intelligence' and 'The Truth Will Set You Free'. Actually, Emotional Intelligence refers to the formation of the brain during infant experiences so I may keep that handy as a parenting resource (as if an excuse was needed) rather than more self reflection education for me.

Oldest Sister calls me twice a week now. Middle Sister hasn't called since 27 Jan, not that I am really monitoring that-it is a relief. But OS and I have come to the conclusion that our assessment is correct, without doubt. Not that we had any doubt, but yes-the formidable early training lets doubt creep in and I find I can now say 'no' to it as easily as I can to a telemarketer.
How's that for some detachment? In fact, I may be close to saying 'no' to MS as easily as well.

No doubt.

No doubt the gifts were -or had turned into- power plays. To tell her that I did not want a birthday gift was not a long held plan. The idea seemed to creep out of some sort of deep intuition and I did not question it or try to analyze possible consequences. It seemed like a clinical inspiration (those may be contradictory terms) or epiphany that 'no gift' was the next step for me. It certainly made me the 'bad guy' to step out of the Drama Triangle.

She has not called since even though her "dearest, closest sister" is 8.5 mo into a high risk pregnancy...that's a platter full of verification.

I think that she thinks I will so desperately need her that I will eventually cave in and call her. Unfortunately for her, that will be a very enduring source of energy for me which I will need because I know I will be very fatigued.

I sent her a Valentine's Day card and simply signed all our names on it (a la- 'just send a card' ).

She has not (yet) tried to play me with the scripted, pitiable "I feel you are pushing me away" which I expect at some point. >

There are other scripts, cards, strategies that I am expecting for her to use to 'start over' to make me return to, diminish me to, the status of her narcissistic supply. I am ready to respond in the moment, and put a stop to it. Nip it in the bud.

Often, when I, or a friend of hers, vents, whines, or complains about behavior from dh or dp, for example, her favorite response is: "Well I wouldn't put up with it anymore."

That she has not called also signals something else to me: I think that she knows she is the one (with the problem ) at fault. And I think she may finally realize that she is the one that I am "not going to put up with" anymore.

Btw, DH returned safely from his travels yesterday and said it'd be a long while before he had to go anywhere again.

Thanks Smithfield. Feeling upset a lot. Just feel so unappreciated at work. Got THE meeting tomorrow but have been warned by friends/colleagues/ex-colleagues to be careful what I say.

Pages- Just wanted to say good luck for tommorrow.

Im so sorry you are feeling so upset at the moment. I'm sure everything will be fine. But try and remind yourself that your job/work does not define you. You are still a wonderful/ good/ amazing person (who can speak seceral languages to boot )

This will remain regardless...nothing can or will take that away. Just ask your dh, if you dont believe me .
Let us know how it goes..

*several languages- (I wonder what seceral languages would sound like?)

Yes good luck PAges- in general these things turn out to be less painful than we thought they'd be.
SMithfield, hope your labour goes well I'm sure it will

Pages-good luck from here too. Consider doing a bit of physical exercise first thing in the morning to try to dissipate some of the stress you must be feeling. Just a few calisthenics would be helpful.

Well, with time differences, I am probably too late for my well wishes.

The sensations and reactions you have described ring bells for me too. I didn't deal with it very well so I do not have any advice or strategy for you. This sort of thing helped me make the decision to be a SAHM-so I guess I copped out-or chose to "opt out". I have no regrets for myself...but exploring what the circumstances are and answers to it is interesting nay-important- to me in case dd runs into it in her future.

DH home, got to run.
Good luck!

Hi everyone, and thanks.

I am feeling a million times better today and all my energy has returned.

We cleared the air, basically, and I said how I felt, largely staying in adult, and remembering to say "I feel" etc rather than being blaming. They then said how they felt, and explained a bit about why these changes had to be made, more than they had told anyone before (kind of letting me in on financial problems like an older child being confided in by their parents - don't tell the younger ones but...) and whilst saying the changes were here to stay, they also said they did respect and value me and they had never said I was not working hard, and one reason they were "watching" people more is because they needed to make sure the work was distributed evenly, and that I might in fact be one of the people working too hard, who needs more help (not quite sure why this pleased me so much - possibly because I do know how hard I work, and I thought they were saying that I don't, which was a bit like not being seen as I really am which is what happens in my family?) They said they needed me as a senior member of staff to help them encourage and motivate the other staff.

Anyway, I admitted that I am very sensitive to criticism (didn't tell them why) and that I may have taken it personally. It is coming on here and all the discussions we have had about our NPD parents that have made me realise now how important it is to take responsibility for my own part in what's going on, and what Smithfield said before about seeing colleagues as siblings getting more attention, etc really struck a chord with me.

DH joked and said "they buttered you up" and I know it's true, they realised that if I left under a cloud it would have an effect on the whole team, but I don't mind a bit of buttering!! I really am so like Monica from Friends! (Please say I am great!) It's nice to be able to laugh about that bit of myself and not take myself too seriously though.

I feel so liberated by this new found ability to address problems in this way, I really do love my job and it is important to me not to become blaming and hypercrtical of management in a NPD kind of way (ie its' all their fault, I'm perfect)and what you said in your previous posts Smithfield, Ally and others, really had a big part in that.

With my mother, I was unable to have any kind of adult conversation like this because her behaviour is so lacking in honesty. She just wants to be the victim and any acknowledgment and apology for my part in it (which I have made) is just seen as a weakness by her (she will then latch on to that and say "Yes, that's right it was ALL Pages fault")

Pages- what a lovely post. so glad your meeting went as it did.

What you said about your mum making any issue 'ALL' your fault makes so much sense.

I was thinking the other day myself about how 'any' disagreement would end up being 'my' fault in my family.

It leaves you feeling so powerless and I guess thats the feeling we carry into adulthood, especially when dealing with authority figures. You end up thinking;

'Well I have no power 'here', so (shrug/sulk/exit stage left) what can I do about it?'

So thank you too Pages, because by sharing this particular story you have also brought about a greater clarity for me.

I think we feel that lack of power because we expect other people to react in the same way that our families do. We forget that other people on the whole tend to be less self-absorbed and sanctimonious than our families (unless of course you are unlucky enough to have an NPD boss).

The first thing that this new boss said yesterday was that he hated seeing me upset and that his impression was that I was normally a chirpy sort of person. I said that it was true that it was not in my nature to be negative (I am not the sort of person to walk around for long being miserable about something, I would usually rather address it).

But it just occurred to me that not one single member of my family has even been that caring, none of them have EVER said that they hate to see me upset (EVER in my life). My mother and all of them know that what happened 18 months ago upset me hugely, I didn't actually cry down the phone to anyone (like my mother did) but I told them in my emails that I had been incredibly hurt. I told my mother that I was sorry for any hurt I had caused her in my letter to her, but that she has also caused me a lot of pain. Not ONCE has she ever said that she is sorry for that, or even cares that I was hurt by being called a liar, what was said about my son, being blamed for it, etc.

I realised that despite having a tougher or more "hands on" style of management, all the people I work with, him included, are caring decent people and I have had examples of that before where I have walked out of a meeting obviously upset by something that has been said and had at least 3 people text me and ask if I am okay, and try to reassure me. It has always amazed me, because right from the first time I ran away from home when I was about 6 to when my stepdad was hitting me, nobody else in my family - not least of all my mother - ever showed that they were in any way going to come and find me/reassure me/be on my side.

It's the same with DH, if we have an argument he will always apologise for upsetting me (usually the next day)because it means more to him that I am hurting than it does that he is "right". I am finding myself welling up now, because I can't believe that my family have always cared so little about how I was feeling.

It's weird isn't it when you suddenly find that normal people validate you?

I just can't understand why is it that my mother put so much effort into feeding me the right food and educating me, and yet has always had so little regard for my emotional development.

PS Mikafan, will pop over to your other thread later.

Well done Pages! Must have taken some nerve to do that! Really pleased for you. And yes strange how people who are unrelated can show concern and not our own families but good there are some okay people out there! (I tend to think everyone is out to get me!)

I am really happy for you Pages. Your posts offer clarity for me too. Thank you for sharing your story-it represents reality of positive adult communication!

As a matter of fact, I was discussing with counselor yesterday about blame-and blame is no good in any respect, basically. (I told her it'd take me awhile to let that sink in a be a truth .) I still like to know the source of my feelings though and that, she said, is valid. But the source is for-to help define and verbalize- what I feel (in my sphere, if you will) not "out there" with the antagonistic one-thus the "I feel..." statements are really the golden key (or the "When you do/say that, I feel..." statements).
Just blanket blaming will usually be met with denial, she said. And I think it is objectively true because we can not know someone's intention unless it is verbalized because we can not read their mind (that is fair).

So instead of "MS thinks she presumes to be matriarch over me", I transform the thought into "I think MS thinks she presumes to be matriarch over me".
There is a wall in that for me to overcome though, because I KNOW MS believes she is superior to me from decades of her behavior that has led me to smother and ultimately deny my feelings. So to not blame her is a hard concept. Not to blame toxic mother is hard, not to blame the source is hard.

But I am beginning to feel how it comes full circle to us as adults to own our feelings and decide we have control over our own reactions and responses and again our own feelings. And we have the ability to not let the antagonistic one control us. And I think the liberating feeling of detachment comes from this.

TMSB wondering what if the antagonistic one is TMSB? Counselor said to stop kicking myself, which DH has said plenty. So... no blame (self-blame) for me either. Well, now, that is opening up a little ray of sunshine into my life . I was blaming myself for ds's anxiety concerns stemming suppressing feelings because I was invisible growing up, etc. and since I couldn't feel therefor he's having troubles with it. But she said it wasn't my fault.

Kaz33
I do not know at what point in our growing (growing up-emotional maturity-emotional intelligence) process that we are supposed to know, with metaphysical certitude, that our feelings are true, just, valid, on the right track. There is so much of the child training/brain washing (and behavior pattern mimicry) to overcome. It seems like a filter that feels foundational and structural to who we are is why we are afraid to rip it apart, jump through and beyond it, to our true selves. It is hard to have confidence in believing that "everything" (generalization) one has thought was true is actually not true. And then proceed to have confidence to find our truth and have confidence in it...
I am feeling it is a process and will take time; and I am not going to kick myself if I make a mistake (I will own it and correct it, but no more blame).
I hope some of this can be helpful to you.

TMSB, I too have struggled with the concept of "blame" because as you may recall my mother has in recent communciations trying to absolve herself for past hurts that she has caused me by saying "There is no blame to be attached", which on the surface seems very mature (Ok, I forgive you and you forgive me - lets draw a line under it sort of thing). But what if someone has hurt and failed you in a huge way and fails to acknowledge that it has happened much less apologise for that? To accept responsibility for what you have done to cause another pain is, as I think we have all agreed, very healing for that person. I have already acknowledged to my mother that my letter to her may have been a bit harsh and that it was because I was angry at the time - she has acknowledged NOTHING.

It's a tricky one, isn't it?

It is, Pages, without doubt. Especially when someone is clearly at fault as in your -most of our- experiences.
IMHO:
I think the seed of truth lies in ourselves. Blame may be a mechanism to put the responsibility for our feelings onto someone else. It is the easiest, quickest reaction-but doesn't mean it is right. It would open the flood gate to a host of other things pretty much going down the wrong path-thus the enduring frustration.

The consequences for hurting someone else would be being blamed for it-consider legal examples. But whether there is remorse in the toxic one or not can not be controlled by someone other than the toxic one. If the toxic one owns up to it and tries to acknowledge, apologize, and heal-all that comes from the toxic one's decision to do so, sincerely hopefully...rather than just because someone else said to-and they wouldn't really be all that toxic in the end picture. But the truly toxic ones do this stuff on purpose and won't own up to it, let alone apologize or accept blame, because they probably do not care whether or not we heal.
If the toxic one does not respond in a healthy way, as one would expect from a civilized person (throwing in my own shades of judgment ), then the consequence ball goes back to the injured party's court. Thus the end of the relationship/connection is a verifiable truth, undeniably justified.

I think informing the toxic one of how their actions/whatever has made us feel as a statement of fact is in the realm of good communication. Blame-like an accusatory judgment- perhaps changes the tone of the communication into emotional turmoil that may very easily change the direction of the subject of the conversation. This presents a challenge by telling or implying to the other person what their response should be without giving them the chance to respond from within themselves (their truth).

The blame, I think, is like a phantom devil prying into the mix for the devil's entertainment, or at least the toxic one's entertainment-just milking more emotion out of us when all we want to do is heal. We want an apology, they will not apologize. We want them to accept responsibility or blame, they will not accept the responsibility or blame. They will not do anything we want or expect them to do because that is part of their "power" posture to keep us in child mode.
Making the statement of fact ('when you do this, it makes me feel...')-putting the circumstances into words for the other to hear because our minds can not be read-is fair for the other person, as we would want to be treated fairly ourselves. I think you've done the right thing in offering communication and then accepting/promoting the end of the relationship to protect yourself from pain being caused by that source again.

We can not blame the other for not being able to read our minds.
This is the bump in my road because I think I know making a statement will do no good with MS. She will never change, per true NPD. I think she would even twist a 'when you do this, it makes me feel...' statement into a denial of what she in fact did or diminish my understanding of what I should feel (saying I am too sensitive); all to maintain me as her narcissistic supply.

These thoughts are new to me...sorry if they are scattered and incomplete-I am still struggling to find the right (or any!) verbalizations. But thank you for being willing to discuss because it is a core issue for me.

Well Im quite happy to blame my parents for everything!

Toomany- on the contrary I think you are very adept at putting it into words;

I think I know making a statement will do no good with MS. She will never change, per true NPD. I think she would even twist a 'when you do this, it makes me feel...' statement into a denial of what she in fact did or diminish my understanding of what I should feel (saying I am too sensitive);

This is how I feel, with 'both' my parents.

But the fact is growing up never having your feelings validated, infact oftentimes coming under attack for daring to reveal such feelings makes confrontation (even as an adult tough). Doesn't it? No wonder then these feeling spill over in to everyday lives.

Because revealing how we really feel (like you pages with your letter) Well, It's a bit like heading off into a busy road, knowing you may well end up as road kill!

So before even confronting them we have to be strong enough to 'yet again' be labelled as 'the problem'. And we have to truly not care because we 'know' we are not. Think that day could be a long way off for me.

Typical example for me was (many years ago) I collapsed several times. It turned out I'd had a panic attacks and hyperventilated but was diagnosed at the time as epileptic.
At age 17/18 I was in shock, and feeling very low. The prospect of being on tablets for the rest of my life, not being able to drive for a couple of years, the stigma.

I was sat in the same room as my dad, feeling sorry for myself, when he suddenly turned on me. Verbally attacked me stating;
I was in fact 'nothing', no.... 'less than nothing'. In fact I was (and I quote) 'less than the shit beneath his shoe.'

So rather than comfort me at a very difficult time I was told to shut up, and pretty much that I didnt deserve empathy, sympathy because I was not worthy enough for it to be delivered to me.

Maybe he thought he needed to toughen me up, or that he was in fact in toughening me up doing me a favour.

Nonetheless the result is the same. Reveal your true feelings....road kill.
It's a difficult lesson to unlearn. To me an 'I feel statement' is like handing the person Im delivering the statement to a loaded weapon. And so I avoid it at all costs.

Smithfield, at your dad. But you are so right. Throughout all of this in the last 18 months I am the only one who has actually bared my soul and said how I feel in emails to the family, the only one who has been honest and straight about things - I am sure that it is seen as a weakness. In fact, like your dad with your illness, I am sure that any sign of weakness is as you say pounced upon used against us.

Smithfield, I am so sad for you.

I know how you feel regarding being a novice in expressing feelings to the professional put-down experts.
I think subconsciously I say making the statement will do no good to MS, so why bother, is my finding an excuse to not expose myself to the also likely possibility of becoming 'road kill'.

Because we are a 'work in progress'...
Our adult rationalization provides the truth and thus the guts to have a 'confrontation' is a step in the right direction, but then the filter of childhood training snaps us back to the physical reaction of rapid heartbeat, anxiety etc sabotaging our truth verbalization and possibly feeding the box of mad snakes a grand buffet.

Trying to walk on two legs, when one is healthy (adult) and the other is not (child mode-kept unusable by the toxic connection) is hard to make viable progress. Cut off the sick leg and replace it with a fake one ("happy hockey sticks")...works better but we feel fake then, not in the realm of truth.

The reparenting ourselves isn't a fake substitute, it is a second chance.
Or
Making the leap off the child mode leg and insist (another proverb: 'Damn the torpedoes-full steam ahead') on two adult legs. Damn the torpedoes- I don't care what MS thinks, I am not going back to child mode. Damn the torpedoes-I don't need her permission or cognizant recognition for me to leave my child mode behind. That may be the source of the instinct to say no to the birthday gifts.

Me the problem? No-I now know she is the problem for me and I am getting that monkey off my back.

Got to go pick up ds.
Sorry this got into a rant, but thanks for listening.

I feel I should follow up-to finish the line of thought from my previous post...
"Finding excuse to not make the statement of fact"....childhood training again , doubting my decision to not make the statement.
For my situation-
Skipping the statements of fact ('when you do that, I feel...) I believe are ok because my actions speak louder than words. Sorry for the cliche. The statements would open me up for further diminishment by her-by not verbalizing to her I am empowering myself to not be subjected to that pain - diminishment to invisibility or child status. My actions of setting boundaries, saying 'no', not taking the bait, not making myself -and my family -to get into the special 'mechanical' gear to cope with her presence (denying my/our feelings to placate her) communicate to her in a way that is unmistakable and perhaps much more effective than the statement of fact.

The statement of fact may still need to be said, but after my actions-it'll just be a post script and I am hoping much easier to verbalize without the confrontational (child) anxiety. I visualize it coming as dispassionate as a statement in a documentary-perhaps pure adult mode (the temptation to be condescending will be very hard to overcome, no matter how much it is deserved.)
Would that be devoid of feeling? No, because the feelings have been identified, verified, validated and respected through responding with the actual and concrete actions stated above.
It seems to come full circle- to not state to her my feelings because I know the consequences of doing so to a NPD person. Enduring the frustration of being shut down for so long has transformed into detachment-my not feeling annoyance or the need to engage verbal feelings to her for her validation anymore. (I don't care what she thinks anymore; feels like that 'card' has been played out.)

Result: I am visible to myself and everyone else, including her-which is not what she wants! I do not think I would have achieved visibility by just staying away from her-which verifies or gives proof that my feelings are engaged with myself-which is more important than engaging my feelings with her.

Which is the point I think Danae has got to, TMSB.

I am not even sure that my non-contact with my mother is just for self-preservation now, I think it is more a case of that she obviously doesn't care enough about me to put me first for once, so why should I bother with her? I was doing some gardening yesterday and I knew she would probably be out in her garden doing the same and whereas thoughts like that used to make me feel close to her, I just don't feel anything anymore.

Like you Sakura, I felt an overwhelming need for her to see DS2, and I still do to some extent but it really isn't about me and her anymore.

Pages- I think your non contact is vital in a way because by having contact with her now (without her ever having acknowledged your feelings) that's like you diminishing yourself.

By Overiding your own feelings in that way, would be like sending yourself a message that her needs 'are more important than yours. That would be a huge setback dont you think?

I truly dont understand why 'any' mother would lose her dd over their own need to be 'right'. But seemingly that is what she has done.

I think Im in a similar situation with my father. I asked for an apology for the way he behaved over the christening. I was met with abuse instead and he has not contacted me since.

I think overall their needs come first...they always did. Their feelings are more important than ours. They will even sacrifice the relationship with us and their gc to feed those needs.

Maybe your mother underestimated you Pages. I think she thought she had taught you well enough who was boss. Who was more important in your relationship.

That is exactly the way Middle Sister is!

She won't call me, to see how I'm doing at the end of my pregnancy, because she'd rather be winning her power play at my expense-I think her mind is churning with 'she'll show me who is right, or in her case- dominant!'...exactly.

I think I will let DH call her when dd2 is born, if he is willing-and I won't hesitate to deffer to his judgment if he doesn't want to call her either.

Toomany- or just le him send a text

But also do you think this comes back to the drama triangle, Oh not again I hear you say..lol) Am I getting boring with this? But it does fascinate me as you can tell.

If she does not ring you, she has placed you in persecutor position. 'Oh rotten old toomany I was just trying ro be nice'.... 'but' if you were to cave and call 'her' then you become rescuer. So the triangle continues...in her world it does anyway.

However if she called you and came from a position of honesty; something along the lines of 'toomany, should we talk? You have seemed a bit off with me lately'. Your communication becomes adult and honest and suddenly the triangle dissipates altogether?
Do you think it's like an addiction for them we must remain in one position or another?

On a whole other note toomany, think you may well have to queue jump..this baby is showing no signs of arriving, despite being term +1 I am off to eat more pineapple
What's your Due date toomany?

*let him

Can you also tell that, other than eating pineapple and drinking raspberry leaf tea I am also floating back and forth from computer hitting refresh button!