"But we took you to stately homes"... a thread for adult children of abusive families

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This thread is a follow up to "My mother has cut me out of her life - long sorry" because we reached the end of the thread life.

I originally posted on that thread to say that my mother had blamed me for something that was in fact her fault, called me a liar, got the rest of the family to gang up on me and then blamed me for splitting up the family.

It generated a huge amount of interest from a number of women who, like me, had grown up in an abusive, or "toxic" family environment where we had been the scapegoat or the dustbin for our parents to dump their own unresolved difficulties. My mother, like all our mothers, has refused to apologise for what she has done and many of us have cut ties with our families in order to recover our lost selves and self-esteem.

Yes, Smithfield, that is right in the sense that if I went back to business as usual (which I never could) it would be sending her (and myself) the wrong message. there is a middle ground (which Susan Forward discusses) whereby I just maintain a superficial contact and that is more or less what I am doing (when I get round to it), although DB (older one) doesn't want any contact until she has apologised. As I know that is never going to happen I am happy to just send her the off photo of the dc and an occasional card. I don't want or need anything more from her so it is not hard to do. I just don't feel or ever will feel the same way about her, something really has died for me where she is concerned.

I think you are right, I am certain she underestimated me and DB too.

Odd photo, not off!

Only another 13 days to go then Smithfield

I was 9 days over...and being my pfb I was expecting her from my 36th week! Doh...won't make that mistake again...!

I'll say good luck now and lots of hugging vibes your way for the birth xx

And good luck to you TMSB lots of hugging vibes your way...or should that be nurturing vibes...whatever, you will both get what I mean!

Have you tried a hot curry yet Smithfield?

ally- hot curry tonight- other than that may have to resort to 'the deed'

What is the "deed"? Would that be ingestion of semen that I read about on another thread to induce labor? [barfing emoticon]

date: 26th. Doc said I was dilated 1.5 cm last Mon.

Hope you go soon, Smithfield. DS is watching for my bellybutton to pop (it's not going to-anterior placenta) and DD is thumping me as if I were a melon, lol.
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Drama triangle: So true- my bad- I'm persecutor...
Over the years I have dropped some lines along the tone of -

She bought Dad a printer and expected him to be inspired to go out and buy himself a computer, which he refused to do. I got around to saying: "So you couldn't cram the computer down Dad's throat."

And when her dear doggie was a pup and she had to (got to?) micromanage his little life- I said- "so it isn't all about you anymore."

And on her walk about phone while at work one day, she was pestering-nay-lecturing me- to be a tag-a-long to a party (fixing me)-she was becoming indignant at my refusal of her so kind offer especially since the party was in my town. I said, "I politely declined, MS, you are the one pushing it."

So she saying "Should we talk? You seem to be a bit off with me lately?" Oooh, Smithfield, I feel emotional flooding at the thought of that because that is the sort of condescending, patronizing thing she'd say. I am the one off: puts herself automatically in the superior position and displays her judgment that identifies the problem as being me. She as rescuer-I am "off"-I need to be returned to "on".
I can also hear it as: "I feel as though you are pushing me away." That may be a her as victim statement.

I think she wouldn't say that now because she knows in her mind I'm off with her because I'm "hormonal".

I think she knows I'm not taking the crap off of her anymore from the boundaries I've been setting since September.

That she hasn't said it to me yet is a sign- I have expected it for awhile now.

Persecutor, victim, rescuer....I think she is on the persecutor spot with me (how interesting!) She is too strong and perfect to be a victim and I am not allowing her to rescue me anymore...what do you think?
She is persecutor, perhaps I am off (eureka-I am off with her !) OFF THE TRIANGLE, and she will search for some control mechanism to get me back, no matter how long it takes. I think she will bide her time from her perspective, while from mine, she is melting, melting, melting.

When she does say it:
I would say, "Oh, how so?" and work in one of her favorites, "I'm sorry you feel that way." I may transfigure that one into "It's too bad you feel that way" because she is the last person on this earth I owe an apology to.

I will probably reference being too busy with dd2 to give her the attention she expects (may even say I thought I'd have that problem with ds & dd and not her) evading the core of the problem because she is NPD and having a show down is pointless. Although she'd have a silent tissy for months and that'd be a break for me (after detox time).

She over played her power control festival with Christmas gifts for ds & dd and then my birthday for the "just trying to be nice" to be believable any more...even from the diminished mind of a perceived 'ignorant Little Sister'. She can tell I have stepped beyond that and I think she knows she is on thin ice with me.

Thanks Ally
I've never had curry...

Yes, will be thinking of you both, it's so exciting. Lots of hugs and warm fluffy thoughts to you... Oh, wish it was me - another tiny LO to hug and get all loved up with again...

DH wouldn't do the deed with me even though DS1 was 14 days late. He said he was too scared

Mine would though he often worried my stomach would literally pop open not neccessarily at the time of 'the deed' tho.

TMSB you have a dirty mind...must say I never got that desparate...

This drama triangle stuff is fascinating...find it useful in day to day life, and interested to observe others

Anyway...bit of exciting news for me, just to steal you thunder ladies I'm getting a kitten! Big step for me, I attach to my pets so easily, my therapist thinks I have enough on my plate but I think yes, I do, BUT I have waited 7 years for another cat and I could delay it forevermore...but I want that fluffy purring bundle of fur on my lap to help sooth me! My dd is a big cat lover even at her age (22mth) so much excitement. And much scared emotion. Pain of losing a cat again to face, the constant almost crippling worry I feel...well its a learning curve, I'm going to have to get it under control. And to top it all we are going to be trying for another bundle of joy in the second half of this year...am I setting myself up to fail again? I think I will just cope with it all. Cats have so much to give and I so need that extra bit of nurturing they can give...

Anyway, off to bed to do my open university now, something else to succeed at! Hopefully..

Good luck with the curry TMSB, maybe just have a madras...hot but not too hot! And smithfield...hope you enjoy your 'medicine'

Ally
Me: a dirty mind? No- I'm really rather prudish which would be consistent with invisibility. But, really, don't take my word for it; I only read about that and it apparently was verified by midwives, etc. The regular 'deed'-DH is reluctant, too.

Congrats on getting a kitten! What kind?
Try not to stress about the 'what might happen' until it does. Your dd with the kitten will be so cute.
DH is allergic, especially to long hair varieties. But I think he likes cats in his heart. He likes Dr. Johnson's Hodge, Inga, the cat on top of Mt. Washington in Vermont, and Japan's Lucky Cat good fortune symbol.

On DH texting MS with the news- he doesn't know how. I've done it once and would have to relearn, lol pathetic, I know. DD can do it. But I think she is testing me to see if I will call her when the birth takes place-ie: I will have to call her then. Should I? No, the text is a good idea (dd can do it) or an old fashioned Western Union telegram.

Pages, thanks. 14 days late-wow-how did you cope?
There is a full moon on the 20th, maybe that will help.

I remember some mention of 'warm Turkish towels' on here...that is sounding good now, too.

I didn't, TMSB, laods of curries, long walks and nothing... then I was induced.

Can anyone remember (Smithfield?) which page it was where you gave us the link to the Americal lawyer?

Pages- Funny you should ask, I was desperately looking for this before to put on Mikafan's thread.

So had another look and found it on page 12, but thought would re post it here also.

Have far too much time on my hands as you can see...need to get nesting or something arrrrgh.

At least they wont let me go 14 days here ....14 DAYs....poor you.
Monday week will be induced if bub no show.

And ALLY 13 Days!...Lovely news re kitten by the way. Bet you cant wait now you've decided to do it.

Thanks Smithfield. How many days over are you now? Let us know when your waters break, won't you? You know you'll still have a bit of time to get to the hospital

Phew at last I've caught up with this thread!

I think we?re encouraged by our culture not to look at the roots of depression etc. in childhood as it?s seen as self-indulgent. I?ve always thought going to counselling would be terribly self-indulgent and have thought that as I?m a lone parent with very little money, it simply can?t be justified. Reading Toxic Parents and this thread has made me realise that it?s an investment in my mental health and that of my children and in my relationship with them and I can?t imagine anything more important than that. I wish counselling were more widely available and cheaper and perceived less negatively as I think so many people have had such terrible emotional input from their parents and unwittingly pass on that legacy to their children.

I?m not sure how far along the process I am, I realised years ago that my mother was a nutter and I think I?d accepted that she can never be a proper mother to me (my dad died over 10 years ago, he was a violent and frightening alcoholic. They had a horrible marriage seemingly with very little love in it, interspersed with physical violence at times when they were younger. As soon as he died she spent the next three years visiting his grave, 2 bus rides away, every single day.)

Three or four years ago, I made a conscious decision not to rise to her bait (she can?t stop herself and I used to get drawn into a stupid argument and then feel angry and frustrated with myself for allowing her to wind me up) and so of course, what she?s done is up the ante by behaving atrociously whenever she visits. I?ve been thinking that I?ve been ignoring her, but in fact what I?ve been doing is bottling it up, because although I may act emotionally distant to her, I?m obviously not. This thread caught my attention just before Christmas because I was sick with anger as the cumulative effect of pretending to ignore her started to take its toll.

It?s only in the last three months or so, as a result of reading TP and this thread, that I?ve really started to grieve about not having had a normal, emotionally healthy childhood. I think I sort of went to resignation without grief (I?ve always been good at denial) and I?m going back a stage. Thanks to all who are posting and sharing, it?s a huge support. My main aim is to get to a stage where I am completely indifferent to my mother and to ensure that I don?t pass on this horrendous emotional legacy to my children.

I went for a counselling session last week and to be honest found it really annoying. He kept asking me to be angry with my parents, not quite sure what I was meant to do - shout and scream, throw furniture around?? Then I had a NLP affirmation to do about letting go of all my anger, started to do it but then found myself really churned up and where was all this anger meant to go - onto the kids, onto DH, the motorist that cut me up.

Just didn't get it. And if it works why do people stay in counselling for years. I have found that my self directed counselling ie: toxic parents, if you had a controlling parent (my personal favourite) were much more useful.

Smithfield - oooh it must be soon, good luck

Message withdrawn

Welcome LittleBella, I really admire phrases like "I realised years ago my mother was a nutter" because I didn't realise at all with mine, and it always astounds me when other people are able to recognise it in their parents - I must have been so brainwashed.

I guess for many of us now the challenge is, as Danae so aptly puts it, is dealing in the present with the backwash of all the years of conditioning, suppressed anger, (for me)the hypersensitivity, etc. For me, the challenge seems to be to deal with it in my professional life atm.

I think the success of counselling is entirely about finding the right counsellor, Kaz. I personally read a few NLP books and they didn't make any sense to me as I couldn't just "retrain" my brain without sourcing the original feeling. My counsellor never "told me" to get angry or anything else. But like some of you I found my anger was a very primitive experience and I found it extremely empowering and liberating. Just coming on here and shouting "crap mother, crap mother, crap mother!" helped. As well as writing furiously in my journal about how I was feeling, doing exercise (a good one) and eventually screaming at, punching and throttling my mother (a rolled up towel = her neck) in therapy.

I think releasing the anger is a valuable part of the process but you can't be "made" to feel it, it just comes when it is ready. As I mentioned I have had a number of counsellors over the years and none of them were any good until I found this one.

Danae did you try that "nailbite" stuff that you paint on?

Littlebella- hello there, welcome.
You sound like you have already got a good handle on things.
Yes, I think the grieving process is important, beacause realising you didnt have a proper childhood 'is' a loss and needs to be acknowledged as such.

kaz- If you're not happy with the way therapy is going you could look at getting a different therapist- how long have you been seeing this one?
Yes I really liked that book too. Cos I do feel I was 'very' controlled as a child.
When are you planning to do the hoffman course?

Danae- I do love your posts. They seem to always make me feel more validated in some way. I think because you often express something I have been feeling and not able to articulate.
Yes- regarding the anger- know exactly what you mean, but I feel in some way I moved to a new stage yesterday
DH really really naffed me off, and I actually managed to say to him 1) why I was angry and 2) (after he'd apologised and was still skulking around the house I asked him to 'please just go to work now, as I just needed some time to calm down'3) Felt mean and guilty (as always do after feeling anger) then stopped myself and said 'NO' my anger 'is' justified, I am not 'mean' for merely communicating it to dh .
So it does move on , but still a very difficult area for me. Especially communicating 'effectively' when angry and justification of anger. If that makes any sense?

Pages- It took another 5 days to go into labour after water broke last time. Was due to be induced next day....then mother stepped in so yes I will have time to post if they break this time Im sure.
I am +4 today.

'eventually screaming at, punching and throttling my mother (a rolled up towel = her neck) in therapy'

Will have to mention this to therapist, as would love to give this one a go

I do think I really need to pick up on the journal writing. I really have seemed to have blocked that at the moment.

Can I ask everyone something? Are you happy? Have you ever felt happy? Its just that I'm not and don't think I ever have been and I don't know if it harks back to childhood or not. I should be happy. I have a DH or loves me and 3 great children. I have a crappy job but the pay isn't bad. We have our s**t to put up with. We are heavily in debt and live with my MIL but all in all things are ok but I don't feel happy. Sorry if this all sounds stupid. I mean, what is happiness after all? Would I know it if I even felt it? Even after the birth of my DC I don't know that I felt any different. Obviously I love them to bits and am so glad they are here but thats it really - I just feel flat most of the time even if I'm doing something I enjoy. I'm not making sense and don't know how to make how I feel understood.

Mikafan- On the contrary, I understand perfectly what you are saying.

This seems to have been a feeling that has dogged me most of my life as well.

I think I could definately trace it back as far as my teens. Just this feeling of underlying unhappiness always.

For the most part I seem to veer between a low grumbling level of flatness (as you describe), to full blown (everything is black, cant get out of bed) depression.

I got a handle on the depression after ds, as I went on ad's for the first time, and what that did do for me was show me (probably for the first time) how I 'potentially' 'could' feel about life, that I actually could be happy.

Then I came off ads, to concieve and after I got pg felt v low again and was scared I was going to slump back into depression.

I realise noe there was a lot of underlying stuff going on with my family. I jsut seem to go along absorbing it all without even realising.

Then, when I stumbled onto this thread it dawned on me for the first time, that 'they' were probably the source of my unhappyness.

Im not saying this in a blaming way you understand, but the thing is Mikafan, I feel like had never 'actually' connected or engaged with my own life. I was too caught up in theirs. They would constantly download their unhappyness on to me.

Your childhood environment was probably very similar to mine. Chaotic, not much laughter, plenty of anger, blame shouting. You will have absorbed this as I did.

We then take it all with us into our own lives.It's like we carry their misery around with us. We keep it on our shoulders. We are their scapegoats remember, so we are also burdened with guilt and shame on top. It what we were trained for.

Since I 'un-connected' from my parents by cutting them off (albeit this may be temporary for me), I seem to have 'begun' for the first time to really connect with my 'own' family, and my 'own' life.
I even have moments of 'real' happyness and contentment and they are becoming more frequent, as the black moods become less.

I think for me, this thread, therapy and reading have been good oulets and writing feelings down (which Im not good at, been hiding from my feelings for too long now).

All I can tell you is, It's a bit like you tracing a path back to find an appreciation and understanding of who 'you' are. Because up til now you have been defined by someone else.
How you manage to do that has to be individual to you, but it can be done. I feel positively about that.

Sorry feel I am rambling, but hope this helps in some way?

Thanks Smithfield, so its not just me going mad then Problem is I don't know how to make myself feel hapy. I don't have contact with any of my family now and it really doesn't bother me. I don't feel I'm missing out on anything by not seeing them but its made no difference to how I feel inside. I don't know where to start or what to do. I want to feel happy I really do. I had a memory today of when I was 7/8 sleepwalking alot. I was referred to a childrens hospital in Paddington for it and distinctly remember the dr. asking my parents if I was under any stress. My mum now denies this but I know he said it and I know that shortly after that appointment being taken on a seaside holiday to somewhere. Weird the things that come to mind for no apparent reason

mikafan- (rolling eyes emoticon), dont they just love denial.
Dont be too hard on yourself, it takes time. It's a long and difficult journey.

Just to clarify what I said earlier, For me I think I got a great deal of realisation about '10'years ago. I did have some therapy at the time, I went because of a break up but a lot of stuff poured out about my childhood. I used to leave those sessions and literally howl. It was so upsetting I thought that it wasnt doing me any good, so I stopped. I went abroad after this, which also gave me some physical distance but I didnt continue processing anything regarding my family, I just blocked it all out again. I did however confront my mum re the abuse a few years after this. Of course she denied everything!

What Im saying is,(without realising it at the time) I did actually do a lot of work on this back then.
So maybe Im a bit further along in the process/journey because of that.

I think the fact you are starting to 'remember' stuff (like the sleepwalking) is a good sign. This is part of you saying, hang on that wasn't right!
When I was 4 I began wetting the bed, I always just accepted my mums explanation for this, Uhm I was lazy? Now I realise I was a very stressed child. And no it wasnt my fault.

So you begin re-defining yourself.

You will have to be prepared to remember and then deal with some really raw emotion about it though. So it may make you get really angry or really sad.

Would you consider reading Toxic parents again as Pages suggested? I just remember you saying it didnt apply to you. Do you think you would still feel the same if you read it now?

Gosh Im so long winded- 'weird' things coming into your mind....is not for no reason. Its part of the process and the more you open up to it the better and easier it will be for you to move along.

Could have just said that really, couldnt I.

You could have said it in one line yes, but I preferred the longer explanation I still don't feel that the Toxic Parents book is my kind of thing and I really don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill regarding my upbringing but I've bookmarked that link you posted a couple of days ago to read when I get 5 minutes at home.

Mikafan- I can assure you, I still have many moments when I say ' Am I making this up? It really wasnt 'that' bad'. Was it?It's called denial
Up until very recently I would keep asking my Dh? Is it me or.....

I try and get past that now by focussing on something really shitty they did past and present, I then remind myself 'no that's not normal. And saying (and this is hard for me) actually, 'no' I didnt deserve that or bring it about myself either.

Maybe there is another book you would connect better with? Have you had a look on amazon?

I haven't looked on amazon no, not sure what I'd put in the search line - "shi**y parents"?