Esther Perel and her take on men

[Tenloaves]

Her take on men as I understand it that is ... .

I don't know how to phrase this post without bringing the wrath of Mumsnet down on my head but hoping it's possible to have a measured discussion.

I have been listening to Esther Perel's relationship podcasts of late and she seems quite sympathetic to the position of men; even men who have been unfaithful or behaved badly in other ways.

Happy to be corrected but her position seems to be that being male, and living and working alongside other males, inevitably involves a lot of competition, potential aggression, even ridicule, from other males, a lot of pressure to "succeed", to provide, solve problems, having been socialised to keep doubts, fears and worries to themselves.

EP is a highly intelligent, skilled, multi-lingual, well travelled, experienced therapist so I am wondering if she is right and we (females) should be more sympathetic to the position of men?

The high suicide rates of young males seem to support her position.

To be clear, I am not saying she is right for sure, I believe that women still very much come off second best in a world still largely designed for males, and I am personally struggling with a DH who is all about "doing" rather than communicating, which lead me to listen to her podcasts in the first place. I suppose, put simply, what I am asking overall is, are we too critical of men?

Not critical enough!

I think it is more complicated than this. I love EP with a burning passion but have felt uncomfortable with how sympathetic she has been with unfaithful men on her podcast. However, I think she's a true feminist and excellent therapist so wants equality and has superhuman empathy skills. This means she'll put herself in the man's position and in her sessions getting angry wouldn't be beneficial (I'd be awful at it). I think it's right to be critical of men's behaviour when it needs to be criticised, and have been really encouraged by how much more empowered women are today to call these things out compared to when I was younger.

I don't think we're being too critical of men but toxic masculinity is a real thing that true feminism is fighting against. In the same way that internalised misogyny is a thing for women including me, men can act in ways that are terrible because of the patriarchy. I think overall EP is fighting the good fight!

I suppose that men are also victims of a mysognistic society. But I think women suffer significantly more.

Yes I have felt the same discomfort at times Mateypotatey and wondered whether her professional empathy is sometimes in conflict with her private thoughts!

I have been surprised by the way she tries to elicit reasons that lie behind infidelity: needing connection, affirmation, acceptance etc. I suppose that is not the same as justifying it though.

Thanks Matey and "Praisebee* that makes a lot of sense.

I should have opened this thread on the feminist board.

Praisebee sorry for emboldening fail there.

being male, and living and working alongside other males, inevitably involves a lot of competition, potential aggression, even ridicule, from other males, a lot of pressure to "succeed", to provide, solve problems, having been socialised to keep doubts, fears and worries to themselves

All these things are extremely helpful to men as individuals though, aren't they.

Compare it to the behaviours women are socialized into. The pressure to look pretty, look slim, spend lots of money on makeup and clothes for example. Who actually benefits from that?
Women are expected to be supportive, caring, the listener, the invisible pick up artist (picks up after everyone). Who benefits from that? Not women.

I agree that there are absolutely definitely pressures that come with being a man and pressures that come with being a woman but the pressures on both seem to be of benefit to mostly men's lives, so my sympathy for the plight of men is limited to the sympathy I have for anyone struggling in life if they happen to be struggling.

I do agree 100% that men are discouraged from showing their emotions and that is not healthy.

The suicide stats are also awful. Although in fact suicide attempts and ideation amongst women and men are actually equal, it's that men are more successful in achieving the attempt because they choose more violent methods.

I think generally society is sympathetic to men. Off the top of my head I'm reminded how men who murder their families are routinely described as "a good husband/dad" by the press, how men receive extremely low sentences for murdering women, rapists are let off because they're believed over the victim, etc etc. Less grim examples, In the workplace a man is a complete hero if he takes some paternity leave, idk. Lots of examples.

I have been surprised by the way she tries to elicit reasons that lie behind infidelity

Yeah it's ridiculous when 99.99% of the time the reason is getting a boner.

I have listened to her on youtube and I haven't disagreed with her, in what I heard, but women are subject to competition in every area of our lives too, everything from job/house/husband/popularity/children/their achievements/social circle how instagramable life is. So I don't buy that poor men endure this competitive arena that women are spared.

We are not spared it at all. We have to make the conscious decision to opt out of competition that feels excessive and focus on our lives. Men can do this too.

We all like a person of either sex who is really happy with their lot and not trying to step on somebody vulnerable's head to get ahead, or put somebody else down to feel good.

I've not heard of her.

Yes I have noticed for years various things around hierarchical behaviour etc. Mainly at work.

I don't get this though-

'Happy to be corrected but her position seems to be that being male, and living and working alongside other males'

That's quite sweeping. Yes many workplaces / roles are v predominantly male/ female. Much less than in the past though. And even in male dominated there are generally women about in other roles etc.

Living alongside? Does it explain? Surely most men generally are born and there's a mum. Sisters/ aunts/ cousins/ grannies/ children locally / in school clubs etc who are female. I can't think of any men I know who when get older/ move out live alongside men. These days plenty at home with generally mum (and dad maybe) for years. Most het men (same as women) have partners move in with (for short or long) settle down with etc.

What is meant my men living alongside men?

Listening to EPs podcasts has really challenged and changed my views about men and infidelity - I think she is very good at demonstrating how men's bad behaviour and infidelity often stems from their bad experiences as children and/or the shame that is created by a patriarchal society. Reading Brene Brown on how important shame is in men's lives also really changed how I see men. I used to be pretty critical of them (and can still be very critical of their behaviour) but I now have a lot more empathy and fellow feeling with them.

I don’t think she’s condoning infidelity. She’s saying that it’s one of the shit things that can happen in a relationship - like substance misuse, alcoholism etc - where one party is very much at fault, but that the relationship can sometimes be rebuilt.

Incidentally, it’s not only men who are unfaithful, despite what MN appears to believe 😉

In general i think yes there are problems with masculine norms etc.

The ones who have the knowledge and tbh best chance of changing things are men. When it comes to subtle or overt policing of male behaviour attitudes it's societal yes but men do it really heavily to other men. The hierarchy/ pecking order is true but as a woman it's pretty incomprehensible. The unwritten rules.

Men need to drive change. Imo.

@BruiserWoods

I have listened to her on youtube and I haven't disagreed with her, in what I heard, but women are subject to competition in every area of our lives too, everything from job/house/husband/popularity/children/their achievements/social circle how instagramable life is. So I don't buy that poor men endure this competitive arena that women are spared.

We are not spared it at all. We have to make the conscious decision to opt out of competition that feels excessive and focus on our lives. Men can do this too.

We all like a person of either sex who is really happy with their lot and not trying to step on somebody vulnerable's head to get ahead, or put somebody else down to feel good.

I found Brene Brown's distinction really helpful - both men and women feel a lot of shame. For women, it's mostly about not feeling likeable/loveable enough. For men it's about not being strong enough and fear of failing and looking weak (including sexually). Reading this was a real aha moment for me.

Oh sorry direct answer to OP question!

Are women too critical? No.

The opening post highlights it's men who criticise other men. Making jokes etc etc.

If anything it's men who are too critical of other men then surely?

The idea that women need to be more tolerant of poor male behaviour isn't one I can get on board with tbh.

I certainly feel like this about boys - that all of our children are indoctrinated into this system, but when they reach an age of culpability it gets more complicated.

Girls are indoctrinated as well. In different ways.

I really wish that in general men cared more about each others situations.

Time and again on here when women's issues are raised there will be one or a few posters who say what about men. It's bad for them too. I tend to give them pointers to any charities etc that are relevant. And ask what they are doing to help- donating, writing to mp etc. I'm sure many will guess the reception that gets.

I know that’s what I mean - there’s a point where everyone is the victim of the system. But they outgrow that and suddenly that creeping entitlement takes over.

As a man. I think each sex faces different challenges.

It's all subjective. Try to get a women to feel sorry for a man....Not going to happen. Try the reverse, not going to happen either.

Things are changing ever so slowly e.g Women are now slowly rising to the same risk of heart attacks as men.

I'm all for equality and I do think things are tougher for women but mumsnet is no barometer.

What is meant my men living alongside men?

I didn't mean it literally like in an army camp or something Nicegerbil . I agree I phrased it badly. I meant living as a man in a male, patriarchal society. Facing other male expectations and pressures.

GNCQ & Bruiserwoods yes I totally agree that the pressures faced by women are just as overwhelming and growing I think in every area of life.

FrazzledY9Parent Although I understand how one repeats patterns learned during childhood, I must confess I don't understand about the shame element ...surely you are already up on the game if you are born male?

Thanks I was wondering about that very thing MissLucyEyelesbarrow

I find myself aligned with EP’s views often — she’s truly empathetic and compassionate and I would say a realist.

FrazzledY9Parent xposts - apologies you have explained about the shame element in your subsequent post

1million, I disagree.

I don't know if you are looking at UK or globally.

In UK though I feel concern about eg

Men who don't meet the masculine expectations and often get shit for it/ feel not good enough/ are vulnerable to other men who are violent. Eg men (and boys) with certain(many) disabilities, men who are or seen as gay or effeminate, men who prefer painting to football, etc.
I feel for rough sleepers who are predominantly men.
Those with addictions that are destroying them (women as well obv but I don't care about one not the other).
Men and boys who are sexually abused or trafficked etc.
Gang violence deaths etc.
Men in prison and yoi. Society accepts violence sexual violence as a given. That's appalling.

I mean so so much.

Men don't feel sorry for women? I don't know but feels pretty bleak to state that.

@TenLoaves, I think what BB means about shame is that men are terrified of appearing weak, and constantly live in fear of being shamed by each other. Fathers often shame their sons (probably because their own dads did it), boys are often shamed by teachers and each other. She describes how men are expected to be strong emotionally and physically and live in fear of failing to do this. I was particularly struck by how afraid they were of failing to perform sexually.
She talks a bit about it here: www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/mens-perspective/interviews/a14409/brene-brown-shame-vulnerability/