Esther Perel and her take on men

[Tenloaves]

Her take on men as I understand it that is ... .

I don't know how to phrase this post without bringing the wrath of Mumsnet down on my head but hoping it's possible to have a measured discussion.

I have been listening to Esther Perel's relationship podcasts of late and she seems quite sympathetic to the position of men; even men who have been unfaithful or behaved badly in other ways.

Happy to be corrected but her position seems to be that being male, and living and working alongside other males, inevitably involves a lot of competition, potential aggression, even ridicule, from other males, a lot of pressure to "succeed", to provide, solve problems, having been socialised to keep doubts, fears and worries to themselves.

EP is a highly intelligent, skilled, multi-lingual, well travelled, experienced therapist so I am wondering if she is right and we (females) should be more sympathetic to the position of men?

The high suicide rates of young males seem to support her position.

To be clear, I am not saying she is right for sure, I believe that women still very much come off second best in a world still largely designed for males, and I am personally struggling with a DH who is all about "doing" rather than communicating, which lead me to listen to her podcasts in the first place. I suppose, put simply, what I am asking overall is, are we too critical of men?

@Tenloaves

Yes that's a fair point about neither sex fully understanding the other 1MillionDollars - and I understand I am veering off the point of the thread somewhat here - but the frustration that women have with men is that so much more could be done by men in power to highlight and reduce male violence towards both sexes but there seems to be no will or urgency to do this and women suffering DA in particular don't have the luxury of time. If two men a week were killed by their female partners, would this be accepted as "normal" or would something be done?

. . . I think it comes down to the powers that be caring. If Margaret Thatcher were in power, do you think you'd see these positive changes you talk about. It documented that women who gain power start to behave like men.

Is it because men are in power or is it because those in power just don't care unless the bottom line is possibly affected or there is enough noise so they are forced to change.

being male, and living and working alongside other males, inevitably involves a lot of competition, potential aggression, even ridicule, from other males, a lot of pressure to "succeed", to provide, solve problems, having been socialised to keep doubts, fears and worries to themselves.

Ok and? What are you saying follows from this? What it is you think men should be excused from?

Also, don't most men and women live and work alongside men and women? Don't we all have to rub along with each other, create home and working environments and cultures together?

How many men actually live, and work, exclusively among men? That sounds like a lifestyle choice to me.

I've been educated and worked in mixed environments and yes some boys and men are shit to each other and many aren't. It depends who you hang around with and what sort of work you do.

@DeliaDinglehopper

I think you’ve over simplified. I think there’s a huge difference between sympathy and feeling sorry for men, and feeling empathy for the unique struggles they face. They don’t have to be compared to women’s struggles, or the adulterers struggles compared to the betrayed.

She’s a psychotherapist - it’s her job to be empathic, even to those who social rules say don’t “deserve” it. Empathy isn’t about letting people off the hook or saying “oh poor dear there there” - it’s a willingness to listen and really understand. When you understand a problem, there’s more chance of moving to a healthier way of living than if you just dismiss and shame.

I think it’s possible to hold men accountable and also be empathic.

Great post DeliaDinglehopper and I agree with almost all of it and Smashingspinster's post. I agree that I have over-simplified.

However, I had the overall impression that EP spent a disproportionate amount of time being empathetic and trying to understand men's struggles as opposed to those of the female partners featured in the podcasts, but my impression could be wrong!

[quote 1MillionDollars]@NiceGerbil

This is mumsnet and unfortunately as a man I need to be careful about what I say. You are not a man on a woman forum where Some just jump on every word you say.

What I am trying to say is in society as a pp said it is more men that commit suicide, more men that have heart attacks, more men that are possible homeless and as a society/sociology you have ask why,

Men suffer different negative experiences to women, that is not to dismiss the negative experiences women face.

All I'm saying is the challenges each sex face is different and lots of women out there and on this forum would play the tiny violin if men brought things up.

Even the original poster was worried about the wrath of mumsnet.[/quote]
But we’re living in a patriarchal society, which has been made by men for the benefit of men. Absolutely men also suffer from patriarchal norms, but these are norms of their own making, not imposed ones. Women suffer far more from them, and have less power to alter them.

1 million you're essentially saying male people in power don't care.

And then pointing out that women who gain power can be the same.

You overlook the reason why women in male dominated environments can be as bad or worse than the men...

Also men aren't all totally lacking in compassion. And women don't all have it.

Men and women are all people. A mix of personality beliefs etc. Socialisation pushes traits to be expected in men/ women. So at a societal level, that leads to different things being shown/ hidden.

Pointing at MT and saying well look at her doesn't show anything.

The NHS was brought in by a man. How does that fit if men are the way you paint them to be?

@Verfremdungseffekt

And that should change and probably will change. It's just a matter of time.

Look back over the last 100 years of the changes, unfortunately slow snd unfortunately they don't come without some kind of push.

Again, not trying to derail but look at government, ruled by the elite. Unless we make change they will try to hold on to it for dear life because it works for them. If women want change it's more than probably women who are going to have to fight for that change.

[quote 1MillionDollars]@Verfremdungseffekt

And that should change and probably will change. It's just a matter of time.

Look back over the last 100 years of the changes, unfortunately slow snd unfortunately they don't come without some kind of push.

Again, not trying to derail but look at government, ruled by the elite. Unless we make change they will try to hold on to it for dear life because it works for them. If women want change it's more than probably women who are going to have to fight for that change.[/quote]
Women have fought for every positive change — we were not given the vote without a ferocious struggle — and will continue to do so. My point is that if men are suffering in a society controlled by men for the benefit of men, they shouldn’t not be looking to women to ameliorate that.

If women want change it's more than probably women who are going to have to fight for that change.

Thanks for that, we've been wondering where we're going wrong. We just need to fight for change. Someone should have told us earlier.

[quote 1MillionDollars]@NiceGerbil

This is mumsnet and unfortunately as a man I need to be careful about what I say. You are not a man on a woman forum where Some just jump on every word you say.

What I am trying to say is in society as a pp said it is more men that commit suicide, more men that have heart attacks, more men that are possible homeless and as a society/sociology you have ask why,

Men suffer different negative experiences to women, that is not to dismiss the negative experiences women face.

All I'm saying is the challenges each sex face is different and lots of women out there and on this forum would play the tiny violin if men brought things up.

Even the original poster was worried about the wrath of mumsnet.[/quote]
You realise more women attempt suicide right ?
Who’s succeeding is not a measure of suffering . Anyone who’s attempts or suicides is absolutely at rock bottom and horribly suffering.

Yes men suffer more heart attacks . Look up the medical reasons why . Testosterone and other hormone okay a major role , with estrogrb in females providing much protection it’s like saying women suffer more breast cancer . Also statistically , men are less inclined to visit doctors.

Men do outnumber women in homeless numbers but then ‘housed’ in school situations women far far outnumber men and on a global scale women suffer immensely more poverty than men.

When you say we can’t make it a competition , it’s true , but when you start bringing uniformed information to the table it’s time to look into the reality

No wrath but people will correct you when you make uniformed statements and claim them as some sort of evidence

1 million.

You must know that women have been fighting for well over 100 years. Here. And around the world are still fighting for the most basic basic things.

You say change comes slowly and those in power don't just hand over. Again. Who were women fighting to get things? Just the government? Or that big group with more power than us? Backed up by society as the norm?

Rape in marriage was made illegal in the early 90s. The early fucking 90s.

You think you need to tell women that those with power concede nothing without a fight?!

What have men fought for over the last 100 years in terms of improving things for men in general?
It's your point so I'm interested to know your personal view.

I don't think she's sympathising, I think she's empathising, which is different, and which is 100% necessary to do good counselling. Understanding why someone has acted the way they've acted, putting yourself in their shoes, even if you completely disagree with what they've done, is the only way anyone can start to move forward. It's the same with criminals and rehabilitation - if you want to actually be effective at changing someone's thought patterns, changing the way someone acts, the starting place will always have to be understanding why they are the way they are, what's led them to this awful place/to become this awful person. It may go against all instincts but in practical terms it's the only thing that will work.

Counsellors especially cannot judge anyone if they want to do an effective job. It would completely alienate the person who's behaved badly, potentially exacerbate the underlying feelings that have led to their bad behaviour, and certainly won't help them change that behaviour. Especially in a couples counselling dynamic - if EP openly appeared to take sides then her business would fail pretty quickly, no one would come back.

@NiceGerbil

Oh sorry direct answer to OP question!

Are women too critical? No.

The opening post highlights it's men who criticise other men. Making jokes etc etc.

If anything it's men who are too critical of other men then surely?

The idea that women need to be more tolerant of poor male behaviour isn't one I can get on board with tbh.

It's also women who criticise other women. I guess that's just how society works?

There really isn't that much poor male behaviour, it's just that like anything, if you go looking for it you're bound to find it.

I think a lot of women vastly under appreciate how hard it is being a man, living up to society's expectations. So busy trying to find ways women are hard done to that they don't even notice when men are getting the shitty end of the stick. I also see quite a lot of extreme feminist attitude of 'it's our turn for superiority now', which totally undermines any quest for equality. And I think in many ways women now have dominance, and yet they still can't see it. You can do anything a man can, and a whole lot of things men can. I think about the only thing me have left is being able to pee standing up.

There's far too much division these days - whether it's gender equality, politics, race, religion. There's hardly any moderates any more, it's all extremists far away on one side or the other. Or perhaps it's just the extremists who make the most noise and get the most attention, and all the moderates are there in the back ground just getting on with things quietly?

also see quite a lot of extreme feminist attitude of 'it's our turn for superiority now', which totally undermines any quest for equality.

Equity is vital.

There really isn't that much poor male behaviour, it's just that like anything, if you go looking for it you're bound to find it.

It's not hard to find. You don't have to be an investigative journalist to uncover poor male behaviour that is systemically harmful to women.

It's also women who criticise other women.

You say this as if women's treatment of other women is a bigger issue than men's treatment of women? Do you really believe that?

Or perhaps it's just the extremists who make the most noise and get the most attention, and all the moderates are there in the back ground just getting on with things quietly?

If all women just got on with things quietly in the past, we wouldn't have the vote, be able to legally say forced sex in marriage is rape, take out solo bank accounts and mortgages...

@ekim

‘ There really isn't that much poor male behaviour, it's just that like anything, if you go looking for it you're bound to find it.

I think a lot of women vastly under appreciate how hard it is being a man, living up to society's expectations. So busy trying to find ways women are hard done to that they don't even notice when men are getting the shitty end of the stick. I also see quite a lot of extreme feminist attitude of 'it's our turn for superiority now', which totally undermines any quest for equality. And I think in many ways women now have dominance, and yet they still can't see it. You can do anything a man can, and a whole lot of things men can. I think about the only thing me have left is being able to pee standing up.’

There really isn’t that much bad male behaviour huh ? So I guess all the violence against women , the abuses , harrassement etc is not too bad
No women are not looking for ways they are hard done by , they are just trying to get fair treatment , fair pay and not to be beaten by their partners , raped or even sexually harrassed online or in the workplace . Worrying about the absolutely HIGE expectations placed on wonen . By society comes second to our survival for many of us

You post show absolutely staggering ignorance for the gender imbalances women face

So busy trying to find ways women are hard done to that they don't even notice when men are getting the shitty end of the stick.

You mean men are MORE hard done by than women in society? Really?!

'There really isn't that much poor male behaviour, it's just that like anything, if you go looking for it you're bound to find it.'

I'm just wondering if you considered your phrasing here.

When it comes to the range of behaviour from men/boys towards women/ girls related to various unwanted/ illegal sex related behaviour.

Your wording - don't know if you will agree!- is pretty dubious.

Did you have specific types of poor male behaviour in mind?

If you did mean across the board including sex offences etc then would be interested in why you feel as you do.

Another quick question ekim.

You decide to write a post including lots of interesting views and mentioning extreme feminists. On one thread with a handful of posters. On one topic. On one topic. One one (female dominated, UK) site. On the whole of the internet.

Do you see yourself as a moderate when it comes to this topic?

Heading off to work now but lots of food for thought here ...thank you to all who have responded.

@ekim, your post indicates a serious lack of functioning cerebellum. 73% of all UK crime is committed by men. Virtually all violent crime is committed by men. Men are still paid more than women for doing the same job. The under representation of women in politics at all levels is a serious democratic deficit. Rape conviction levels are still criminally tiny, and women are still vilified for being raped.. Women still do 60% more household chores than men, and disproportionate level of all unpaid caring work for children and elderly people. Virtually no organised religion puts women on an entirely equal footing to men. Men feel entitled to sex from women — there is no female incel movement. Marital rape was decriminalised appallingly recently.

Men hold the bulk of political and economic power across all societies.

@ekim there really isn't much poor mens behaviour??
Did you really just write that?
What planet are you living on , because it doesn't seem to be reality

@Verfremdungseffekt well said

Back to the OP. I haven't heard or read anything by the person you're discussing, so may be a missing a very important point about her approach. On a general point though, I don't expect psychoanalysis to have the pedagogical relationship with morality that you seem to think it should. Does it, should it have any relationship to morality at all?

I'm sure there are whole branches of academia, as well as professional codes, that address that topic and there must be a professional ethical code that says there are ethical limits, boundaries, whistleblowing protocols.

But in essence, isn't psychotherapy an investigative process, about seeking to understand, particularly to enable its subject to understand themselves better? What they choose to do with that self-knowledge is up to them.

So I would expect any psychotherapist to be morally neutral, as far as is possible, while also being very insightful, empathetic, able to 'get' other people, their experiences and motivations and draw them out - starting from where they are, not from a position of the therapist's own perspective.

But, while I would expect that a therapist might gain really valuable insight into people's motivations and be able to group those into experiences typical of, or particular to certain types or classes of people, I would not necessarily expect them to have the sociological or political background necessary to place those experiences meaningfully into a wider social and political context.

I think that's fair, @lottiegarbanzo I don't know Esther Perel's work, either, though people often recommend her TED talks/podcasts on here but she's not claiming to be any kind of moral arbiter, as she's a psychotherapist who specialises in marriage and relationships.

She's not making a moral argument for men as a class being lovely and faultless, or campaigning for equality, she's doing her job, which is about individuals.

I am currently seeing a therapist, and I wouldn't expect her to start lecturing me on the morality of my decisions, either. She would be encouraging me to think about why I had been unfaithful, not telling me I shouldn't have done it.

EP is a highly intelligent, skilled, multi-lingual, well travelled, experienced therapist so I am wondering if she is right and we (females) should be more sympathetic to the position of men?

Is EP proposing that women specifically, should be more sympathetic to men? Or is that just you OP? If the latter, why? Why women, specifically?

I think everyone should be sympathetic and polite (not quite the same as respect but creates a positive condition in which mutual respect can grow and thrive) towards everyone, as a natural starting point for human relationships and social discourse. Basically, think the best of people until given reason not to, listen to them, try to make them feel comfortable, show them courtesy - basic, old-fashioned good manners.

I don't find what you've said about male hierarchies new or particularly interesting. Surely we all knew that, about 'alpha and beta males' (isn't that terminology as old as the 70s or 80s?), hierarchical behaviours and organisational modes (hello most workplaces, the military and sport). Also that men are far more comfortable than women with there being winners and losers (see sport, the military, most workplaces) and with seeking to humiliate the losers (a very masculine behaviour IME/O).

Yes, it's shit for lower ranking males (see also anyone who is not a high-ranking man). But we know that. What's new?

Is EP proposing that women specifically, should be more sympathetic to men?

That's not my impression from reading interviews she came at specialising in couples therapy from a background in family therapy which arose out of her background as the child of Holocaust survivors, and I gather her last book was specifically on infidelity she's interested in why people have affairs, why people in happy relationships have affairs, and how ideas about infidelity have changed since marriage stopped being primarily an economic/dynastic institution, and women were forced to be chaste while men had a license to shag around.