Esther Perel and her take on men

[Tenloaves]

Her take on men as I understand it that is ... .

I don't know how to phrase this post without bringing the wrath of Mumsnet down on my head but hoping it's possible to have a measured discussion.

I have been listening to Esther Perel's relationship podcasts of late and she seems quite sympathetic to the position of men; even men who have been unfaithful or behaved badly in other ways.

Happy to be corrected but her position seems to be that being male, and living and working alongside other males, inevitably involves a lot of competition, potential aggression, even ridicule, from other males, a lot of pressure to "succeed", to provide, solve problems, having been socialised to keep doubts, fears and worries to themselves.

EP is a highly intelligent, skilled, multi-lingual, well travelled, experienced therapist so I am wondering if she is right and we (females) should be more sympathetic to the position of men?

The high suicide rates of young males seem to support her position.

To be clear, I am not saying she is right for sure, I believe that women still very much come off second best in a world still largely designed for males, and I am personally struggling with a DH who is all about "doing" rather than communicating, which lead me to listen to her podcasts in the first place. I suppose, put simply, what I am asking overall is, are we too critical of men?

If anything it's men who are too critical of other men then surely

Yes good point Nicegerbil and I agree that men not caring enough about other people's situations is critical.

I think she bases a lot of what she says on the difficulties and trials of being human as opposed to being male or female.

This is mumsnet. I'll be lynched if I say men have it hard.

Men do have it hard in different ways, different pressures but yes, when you look at suicide rates, homelessness and things like that you have to really dig deeper and not turn it into a gender war.

Ah op understand re the living side by side thing!

But they don't do they. The vast majority of people have both men and women in their lives. And generally at work as well.

I do agree there is huge pressure from men to conform. I've seen it so often.

I also know that it's often one or two who do the hypermasculine thing. And that some in the group aren't interested and some actively hate aspects.. But the man rules say to never show that. Laugh along etc.

I really feel that it's men who understand best, who really get it, and can change it.

I'm happy to support initiatives etc. Really though the big thing is for everyday men to do... Something! I understand why that's so hard though.

I also wonder. In the end. Are most men pretty ok with the way things are?

I don't think women being more tolerant is the key but I'm not familiar with her arguments. Might have s Google.

[quote FrazzledY9Parent]@TenLoaves, I think what BB means about shame is that men are terrified of appearing weak, and constantly live in fear of being shamed by each other. Fathers often shame their sons (probably because their own dads did it), boys are often shamed by teachers and each other. She describes how men are expected to be strong emotionally and physically and live in fear of failing to do this. I was particularly struck by how afraid they were of failing to perform sexually.
She talks a bit about it here: www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/mens-perspective/interviews/a14409/brene-brown-shame-vulnerability/[/quote]
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Things are changing each generation. First thing I learnt on a counselling course is men are told not to cry, I tell my son it's okay to cry, not about silly things though, but if he's emotional for some reason it's fine.

We don't need to be strong snd women want us to be strong. Women say they want a sensitive man but I doubt when they are blobbing at Love Actually for the 10th time they want to have sex with him.

Blubbing not blobbing.

@Mateypotatey

I don't think we're being too critical of men but toxic masculinity is a real thing that true feminism is fighting against. In the same way that internalised misogyny is a thing for women including me, men can act in ways that are terrible because of the patriarchy. I think overall EP is fighting the good fight!

This.

1million I assume that's a general comment. It's not a 'gender war' though. Why have you brought that up and said you'll get lynched?!

I listed some of the areas I do feel sorry for men.

Do you genuinely believe that
'Try to get a women to feel sorry for a man....Not going to happen. Try the reverse, not going to happen either.'

That's really bleak and in terms of women caring about men just not true. I can't say about the other way around but I hope it's not true!

'Things are changing ever so slowly e.g Women are now slowly rising to the same risk of heart attacks as men.'

That's your idea of equality? Equally bleak! Reducing them for everyone would be better imo.

[quote FrazzledY9Parent]@TenLoaves, I think what BB means about shame is that men are terrified of appearing weak, and constantly live in fear of being shamed by each other. Fathers often shame their sons (probably because their own dads did it), boys are often shamed by teachers and each other. She describes how men are expected to be strong emotionally and physically and live in fear of failing to do this. I was particularly struck by how afraid they were of failing to perform sexually.
She talks a bit about it here: www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/mens-perspective/interviews/a14409/brene-brown-shame-vulnerability/[/quote]
This too!

Men do cry. Male role models cry.

Footballers are forever cuddling each other / crying if things go bad. The fans as well. Men cry on soaps. Men cry in the pub when telling you something personal. Men cry when their babies are born, they lose a loved one. Talking on telly about addiction abuse.

Yes I know in general that boys get various messages and they are strong. It's not true that it's not seen, and even role models do it.

I've seen Arnie cry in films he's fairly butch surely?

It's all subjective. Try to get a women to feel sorry for a man....Not going to happen. Try the reverse, not going to happen either.

1MillionDollars I appreciate your honesty but surely this is the crux of the problem?

I don't think feeling sorry for either sex is the correct response but do men not care about the following statistics for example:

Almost one in three women aged 16-59 will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse in England and Wales overview: November 2019

Two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and Wales alone
Office for National Statistics (2019) Homicide in England and Wales: year ending March 2018 (average taken over 10 years)

In the year ending March 2019, 1.6 million women experienced domestic abuse
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse victim characteristics, England and Wales: year ending March 2019

@NiceGerbil

This is mumsnet and unfortunately as a man I need to be careful about what I say. You are not a man on a woman forum where Some just jump on every word you say.

What I am trying to say is in society as a pp said it is more men that commit suicide, more men that have heart attacks, more men that are possible homeless and as a society/sociology you have ask why,

Men suffer different negative experiences to women, that is not to dismiss the negative experiences women face.

All I'm saying is the challenges each sex face is different and lots of women out there and on this forum would play the tiny violin if men brought things up.

Even the original poster was worried about the wrath of mumsnet.

@Tenloaves

It's all subjective. Try to get a women to feel sorry for a man....Not going to happen. Try the reverse, not going to happen either.

1MillionDollars I appreciate your honesty but surely this is the crux of the problem?

I don't think feeling sorry for either sex is the correct response but do men not care about the following statistics for example:

Almost one in three women aged 16-59 will experience domestic abuse in her lifetime
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse in England and Wales overview: November 2019

Two women a week are killed by a current or former partner in England and Wales alone
Office for National Statistics (2019) Homicide in England and Wales: year ending March 2018 (average taken over 10 years)

In the year ending March 2019, 1.6 million women experienced domestic abuse
Office for National Statistics (2019) Domestic abuse victim characteristics, England and Wales: year ending March 2019

. . . As a men I don't understand. As a man I don't know what it is like for a woman to walk down a road in darkness late at night.

That's my point. Neither sex fully understands the challenges being a man or a woman face. I don't want to derail it, but a white man will never understand what it's like to be a black man etc

We can only try to educate.

Can we ignore the derail please?
I like Esther perel but had to stop.listening to her after she was sympathetic to a man who came across to me as a raging narcissist. It turned my stomach.

OP IME men in general don't seem to care about things happening to men and boys around the place.

That troubles me because all the govt, institutions, big business etc is still controlled by men. Why are men in parliament not acting on these issues? Why are men in the pub not discussing? Where are the marches etc?

If not caring/ caring in theory but not talking discussing acting is a part of male expectations. Then it's a catch 22 isn't it.

(there are loads of men out there caring acting doing but they are exception rather than rule).

[quote FrazzledY9Parent]@TenLoaves, I think what BB means about shame is that men are terrified of appearing weak, and constantly live in fear of being shamed by each other. Fathers often shame their sons (probably because their own dads did it), boys are often shamed by teachers and each other. She describes how men are expected to be strong emotionally and physically and live in fear of failing to do this. I was particularly struck by how afraid they were of failing to perform sexually.
She talks a bit about it here: www.redbookmag.com/love-sex/mens-perspective/interviews/a14409/brene-brown-shame-vulnerability/[/quote]
Thank you FrazzledY9Parent of course, that makes a lot of sense.

1MillionDollars I do agree with you 100% about homelessness and other issues and I also agree that some women have bought in to the idea of the string man etc

I think NiceGerbil's question about whether most men are content with the status quo is highly pertinent!

I think you’ve over simplified. I think there’s a huge difference between sympathy and feeling sorry for men, and feeling empathy for the unique struggles they face. They don’t have to be compared to women’s struggles, or the adulterers struggles compared to the betrayed.

She’s a psychotherapist - it’s her job to be empathic, even to those who social rules say don’t “deserve” it. Empathy isn’t about letting people off the hook or saying “oh poor dear there there” - it’s a willingness to listen and really understand. When you understand a problem, there’s more chance of moving to a healthier way of living than if you just dismiss and shame.

I think it’s possible to hold men accountable and also be empathic.

I guess my take is that being a male can mean you are subject to toxic and damaging rules and expectations, in just the same way being a woman can. The consequences are different in that it disadvantages people in different ways and to a different extent. But we only have to look at the stats on mens mental health to see all is not well. Should we accept or excuse bad behaviour or abuse? No, of course not. Should we understand that toxic stereotyping causes problems for men as well? Yes of course.

Apologies for typos - I am tired.

That should have said strong man not string man obviously.

Meant to add that I will check out BB FrazzledY9Parent

@DeliaDinglehopper

I think you’ve over simplified. I think there’s a huge difference between sympathy and feeling sorry for men, and feeling empathy for the unique struggles they face. They don’t have to be compared to women’s struggles, or the adulterers struggles compared to the betrayed.

She’s a psychotherapist - it’s her job to be empathic, even to those who social rules say don’t “deserve” it. Empathy isn’t about letting people off the hook or saying “oh poor dear there there” - it’s a willingness to listen and really understand. When you understand a problem, there’s more chance of moving to a healthier way of living than if you just dismiss and shame.

I think it’s possible to hold men accountable and also be empathic.

Completely agree with this. I am always surprised how much people want villian and saints. When in fact we are all human.

I find EP very adept at getting to the nub of an issue. She doesn't tolerate the easy answer or the obvious one. So she may hear someone's awful behaviour bit doesn't stop there. She will explore deeper and want to understand why that particular behaviour would elicit that response from the partner.

I find her fascinating . Not for everyone though.

Yes that's a fair point about neither sex fully understanding the other 1MillionDollars - and I understand I am veering off the point of the thread somewhat here - but the frustration that women have with men is that so much more could be done by men in power to highlight and reduce male violence towards both sexes but there seems to be no will or urgency to do this and women suffering DA in particular don't have the luxury of time. If two men a week were killed by their female partners, would this be accepted as "normal" or would something be done?

' I think what BB means about shame is that men are terrified of appearing weak, and constantly live in fear of being shamed by each other'

This must reminded me of something else I've observed. And it comes yet again back to pecking order. This continuous hierarchy behaviour/ dynamic that goes on. And that I think most women don't notice/ if they do just don't get it/ find it peculiar and pointless. That's my RL experience anyway.

So yes it comes back to that. Who has a head start on the hierarchy? I think it's men who are very big. Big and strong.

I think this because I've seen men who are built big- tall broad shoulders meaty iyswim. Don't have to adhere to all that stuff.

And do other men take the piss? Nope. Or, not much. Not with the same vigour.

And I've observed that great big men are more likely to be seen cooing over a baby, being upfront about their interest in making clothes for their kids, proudly talking about their love for baking etc.

Not all obv some are arseholes but there's not the same underlying need to prove masculinity because well. They've no need do they.

I've also noticed how they go through life is very different as well. That gets long though!

But yes. Who are men doing these displays for? Other men.

It's not about women at all. Is the bottom line.

'. If two men a week were killed by their female partners, would this be accepted as "normal" or would something be done?'

Men are murdered way more than women.
Boys in gangs getting stabbed, often so young.

I think that women murdering men in numbers is well. It's not going to happen.

Men and boys are being killed though and... Again.. seemingly little interest from men in general.

Honestly I think if the two men a week were generally from a working class background, nothing would be done.

18 men die by suicide each day (in England and Wales). It’s the single biggest killer of men under 45. What does anyone do about that?