Raising NAMALT comments, or any sort of feminism = being ghosted

[WishingYouAMerryChristmasToo]

I don't do online -after multiple dick pics and ridiculous experiences.

I started dating an 'old' neighbour, not old in age, my age single, academic a former neighbour we both lived in the same village and have since moved-we had a lot in common -he asked me what I was doing one evening -I said I was plotting the storyline to a new book but this one was all woman -as I most recent books I'd read in this genre all had women being 'rescued' by the handsome vet/ next door neighbour etc all male. He replied 'but men are 50%' and I said 'yes but in this case I'm developing female characters, I don't like the idea of a woman expecting a man to rescue her -this woman gets her own problems sorted. He texted 'Not all men are like that ' I replied with a ? saying I wasn't taking about men but women. He asked me if I was 'one of those women' -I asked him to explain. He said 'not all men are taking over types etc' I again said it wasn't about men. He has ghosted me. After talking to me every day for a few months -I haven't heard from him for a couple of weeks. No reason.

I went on a few dates with another. Thought he was really kind. One date he told me he was sick of this 'men blaming culture' he is NAMALT and I said that's the point. Actually it's in everything male entitlement and not realising the fear we have. He said 'Women only get attacked if they aren't careful' eg not wearing short skirts etc -totally missed the SE case -as NAMALT. He must have realised it was finished but no apology and not back in touch (don't worry it's a vomit from me)

I'm feeling such a depression. I've spent 12 years alone apart for a 2 year relationship and marriage. I then spent 4 years alone and dated again -he was a cheater and a liar. Again I found friends telling me 'it was me attracting the wrong sort -or being too trusting'. I have boundaries but have yet to find a man who doesn't just shrug and gets it -gets my fear. gets my independence, doesn't want to change me etc..... it's always my fault for not finding said one. I have a full life, but yes I'd like a companion. But I'm thinking it's not going to happen for me. I have good boundaries and good confidence and I'm bright and intelligent. I just want an equal who respects and understands the violence woman are currently facing.

Where are they?

"I can’t think of one man who stands up and fights for women to have equality , not one ."

I always think that men like Patrick Stewart and David Attenborough could fall into this category, but then I remember all the Epstein's, Stacey's etc. out there and think it's only a matter of time before some crap is dragged up about the ones who do appear to support women.

Anyway, whatever the case, it's certainly not enough.

My view is with very few exceptions by the,age of 50 not many normal or eligible men left. Not that it bothers me at all.

@Counterbottle

I can’t think of one man who stands up and fights for women to have equality , not one . I can think of plenty of examples where men benefit from women being treated as less than men.

Andy Murray!

Yes, I know, in general the exception proves the rules ... But I think he deserves a shout out!

'I've been told that "No-one wants a feminist", that women do themselves a disservice by "being shrill" and I'm "too modern for most men".'

Well you're best off without them. Dodged a bullet! Lots of bullets...

I'm pleased to confirm that I've been an 'out' feminist all my life.

And have had no shortage of boyfriends etc. And am married to a bloke who loves me.

They are out there. Promise :)

@NiceGerbil - In hindsight, my post probably sounded rather optimistic than I feel!

While I do believe that there are changes coming, I believe we are very, very early in the infancy of what I HOPE will be an eventual transformation. But I recognise that we are only at the very start of an awakening and we already face increasing pressures in some areas - such as the loss of single sex spaces, loss of female-exclusive language and being replaced by physically intact men in female sports. In some areas we have made great strides, but there are so many areas where gender roles have gone backwards and we're losing what we previously gained.

I guess the fact that initially Me Too, and now women's safety has become such a hot talking point gives me hope that men are starting to consider things from a different perspective.

As I think I said above, although I consider myself a feminist I think I was blind to many of the adjustments I make in my daily life, and just never stopped to notice how differently we lead our lives from men on the most basic level.

So in a nutshell what I'm saying is that I agree with you. I do have some hope that things will snowball and genuine progress will continue but I really do recognise that it's an enormous, uphill battle and we have barely crossed the starting line.

I imagine you're a fair bit younger than me. Your posts resonate so totally with my younger self.

This isn't a criticism! I think with many things perspectives change as you go through life.

I feel about so many things. I've seen this all before. But no one can feel like that before it's time for them too iyswim. And that is normal and how it is and should be iyswim.

I'm old and cynical.

I don't want to respond to the meat of your post because it would make me feel like a right miserable old sod!

Optimism and drive is so important. Fresh perspectives, thinking yes we can do this!

And I hope you're right and this time, it's going to happen :)

When I say younger I don't mean like a kid or something! My 30s was what I was thinking back to :)

Apologies if you are younger or older! GAH. Some people are cynical from their youth and some are optimistic all their lives!

Decent men do understand/ empathise with women facing bad male behaviours. But it is wearing when you point out that men face bad behaviours as well and are met with, well it simply doesn't compare to what women face. As if that invalidates his experiences please allow me to invalidate your experience further. Have a read of this and then think about why women might feel any "bad behaviours" men experience at the hands of women are pretty petty in comparison.

victimfocusblog.com/2021/08/29/37-questions-to-prove-that-systemic-misandry-doesnt-exist-anywhere-in-the-world/?fbclid=IwAR36MQ_H7KZu58WTQfOIkEmtOQpbFxebwWE9hHKPIAmENuTXrPAQxwGscBY

This thread has been quite the object lesson in exactly what the OP is talking about.

OP, sorry your thread about NAMALTs has been ruined by another NAMALT.

Back to the question, yes there are good ones out there but they are rare as diamonds. As you well know, they are worth holding out for rather than settling for the ones who don't get it (even if they think they do, see above).

They may not present in the way we are conditioned to expect men to. They may not make the first move and actively pursue you, or pay for the first date. They may not be overtly sexy or confident. I'm probably telling you how to suck eggs here but it took me most of my life to learn to shake those expectations and ignore my innate physical preference for an 'alpha', they never end well.

Also, don't let your friends blame you for the shitty men you've dated before. They need a good feminist talking to as well.

Any man who is talking to a woman.

And she is talking about. Women in Afghanistan. Sarah everard. Bibi and Nicole and police selfies. How she had some bloke do xyz the other day and it happens all the time and it's scary. Etc.

Any man who responds with. Any diversion whatsoever. Away from what she's talking about. And onto well xyz happens to men.

Is one to never see again.

In my extensive experience.

Women esp in dates or in general don't randomly instigate conversations with men they don't know VERY VERY WELL. And even then. Probably not really very often.

IME

Men FREQUENTLY initiate conversations about current news around awful things happening to women. Very often out of nowhere and in really inappropriate situations.

And then when they have you cornered oh what do you think about this awful thing in the news?

When you say wow it's terrible etc.

They launch into a 'debate' about it all being exaggerated/ not that bad/ men get all this shit.. Well women are too sensitive/ want to be offended all the time/ make things up/ were asking for it etc.

Such fun! Being goaded about a terrible thing by a man who wants to do dispassionate devils advocate and feel lovely and superior.

'Women esp in dates or in general don't randomly instigate conversations with men they don't know VERY VERY WELL. About anything to do with crimes against women, women's issues or feminist things.
And even then. Probably not really very often.'

Sorry my post before missed out s pretty key thing at the beginning!

I saw this post on LinkedIn today, not the sort of post you normally see.
The comments are very much divided between men feeling like they are all being called rapist and women thinking it’s great.
If your on LinkedIn the chap who posted it is called James Allen, I can’t seem to be able to copy a link over.

@Samedaysameshit

I saw this post on LinkedIn today, not the sort of post you normally see. The comments are very much divided between men feeling like they are all being called rapist and women thinking it’s great. If your on LinkedIn the chap who posted it is called James Allen, I can’t seem to be able to copy a link over.

It's incredible that men who aren't rapists would see this and feel personally attacked isn't it?

I cannot get my head around that reaction. I suppose it's the same defensiveness as people who hear 'black lives matter' and as a kneejerk response say 'ALL lives matter' rather than actually listening to any of the nuanced discussions or attempting to learn anything.

It's the anger of privilege being acknowledged. I can't get my head around it. I have certain privileges I happened to be born with - I am white and until an accident in my 30s didn't have any physical health issues. They are privileges. I can't imagine how someone stating that would make me feel defensive, angry or resistant to hearing their experiences as people who don't have those privileges.

You should go and read the comments
Yes, or maybe not!
I’m sure there is actually nothing new there really.
It seems a lack of being able to put yourself in someone else’s shoes.
A small example is that my wife will now not walk the dog after work until probably April.
It’s dark before she leaves and dark when she gets home and she won’t go out on her own.
It’s things like that I guess never register with a lot of the guys

It’s vanishingly rarely that I see men discussing the issues men face - violence, suicide, homelessness, adjusting to life after the forces - spontaneously. Far too many men only seem to raise these issues when they can use them as a means to shut women up from talking about misogyny.

If I listed out every sexist micro (and macro) aggression I’ve experienced since childhood with each one in a separate post, I’d exceed the MN post count per thread limit. And I’m one woman, and I’m far from unique. Of course to someone not on the receiving end, it might seem like the working world is perfect now - the “I’ve got a woman boss so you’ve achieved equality now” mindset. But I can assure you it’s far from it when you are on the receiving end.

While I think it's definitely true that men don't understand the reality of life for women, it's also true that women don't understand the reality of life for men.

From what I've observed, from my DH and from talking to male friends, it seems to me that men relate to each other based on threat, competition and oneupmanship in a very strict, controlled social order that has built up over generations and generations. It's handed down from man to boy and women have some awareness of it, but I think the extent and depth of it is hidden. When women call men out for their behaviour, IMO men retaliate because women are asking them to break out of a social code that is absolutely embedded in their being. For them, being asked to go against their male socialisation is far worse than being seen as misogynist. Women are not a threat, other men are. The priority is always keeping other men happy, avoiding threat, winning the competition. Women talking about rights is a distraction, a dangerous distraction and men get angry about it because on some level they know women are right but they feel entirely helpless about what to do with that knowledge - hence men constantly asking 'what can we do?' They are paralysed by the strict male code they've been trained in and they genuinely can't see a way that they can challenge the situation without a huge cost to themselves. Siding with women, fighting for women's rights, is the ultimate weakness and capitulation for a man. Men compete with men for women. Women, for millennia, have been property, not people. They've been traded and kept as possessions. The idea of women being actual humans is completely new - it didn't even really exist in our the youth of people who are now in their 60s. Men never had to take women seriously as fellow professionals or as competitors in sport or any other arena in life. Women were the prize, not the foe. The male psyche, in general, cannot cope with a situation in which Jane is your boss and considers you to be not up to scratch. Their grandfathers never had to deal with that. Jane was always the secretary, getting the coffee and providing eye candy, the focus of banter, a way to exert authority on someone weaker who had no choice but to take it. Adjusting to the fact that Jane can and will fire you if you make the blow job joke is a genuine adjustment, given the history.

This is not to make excuses for men. Being realistic about what you're facing is the only starting point.

Great post TheDailyCarbunkle 👏🏻

@TheDailyCarbunkle makes an excellent point. I think a not-insignificant number of men look at the lives that their fathers/grandfathers had - wife at home, all the cooking/housework done for them, responsibility for children being someone else's department and their only real responsibility being "having a job", plus the higher status that men had - and wish they had some of that for themselves.

they genuinely can't see a way that they can challenge the situation without a huge cost to themselves

Even though it would help so many people they love. Because that's the difference with BLM. White people can almost entirely avoid personal relationships with black people if they're wankers. But wanker men have mothers, wives, daughters, sisters and still don't make the change.

I have a man reporting to me and I see daily that he thinks his incompetence is fine and that I shouldn't have the audacity to point it out. All while staring at my chest.

I don’t really recognise what The daily has said.
Also I certainly do t want my grandfathers life.
His job was crawling in an 18 inch seam in just his underpants due to it being nearly 100 degrees,digging coal with a pick axe. He started doing that at 42 as he needed the face workers premium.
That after joining the army at 15 and spending 13 years in Burma.
I’d rather do the school run and a few dishes thanks.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Choccy01

If you took this approach in real life you'd scare of most people before you started (tying in with the first post of the thread....)

Happily I'm with someone brilliant, thanks so it seems my approach is just fine thanks. I'm sorry yours isn't working, but hopefully you're willing to learn and grow over time so you can meet a woman you appreciate as an equal

Still not clear on what 'men's rights' you think are challenged by 'women's rights' so maybe get your thoughts clear on that before you speak to any real life women about feminism.

Good luck 🤞🏻 [/quote]
Tell me you're a Karen without telling me you're a Karen.....

Thanks I do perfectly fine. Yes I'm sure jumping on anyone that disagrees with you and calling them misogynistic serves you well

@Sakurami

Ffs choccy. I bet you also counter BLM with 'but white lives matter too' bollocks.

Like BLM, it doesn't mean that white lives don't matter or that all white people are racist. As a white person I support BLM and listen and am horrified and supportive.

OP- if you want to find men who aren't threatened and are supportive then look at environmental groups, activists, vegans etc. They are full of intelligent and empathetic people who look at life beyond their own little yard and experiences.

In my experience, I know some great men (including my boyfriend) and a couple of exes. But mostly, in work and in life they have been sexist.

Yes more projection a fellow Karen congrats

Oh dear. Imagine being an adult and using 'Karen' as an insult when you're called out on being a misogynist. Way to prove the point @Choccy01! All that's missing is calling women with opinions hysterical and you've got full house in incel bingo...

Thanks I do perfectly fine.

Sure you do pal, sure you do. Nothing gets us ladies going more than a bit of male entitlement