Raising NAMALT comments, or any sort of feminism = being ghosted

[WishingYouAMerryChristmasToo]

I don't do online -after multiple dick pics and ridiculous experiences.

I started dating an 'old' neighbour, not old in age, my age single, academic a former neighbour we both lived in the same village and have since moved-we had a lot in common -he asked me what I was doing one evening -I said I was plotting the storyline to a new book but this one was all woman -as I most recent books I'd read in this genre all had women being 'rescued' by the handsome vet/ next door neighbour etc all male. He replied 'but men are 50%' and I said 'yes but in this case I'm developing female characters, I don't like the idea of a woman expecting a man to rescue her -this woman gets her own problems sorted. He texted 'Not all men are like that ' I replied with a ? saying I wasn't taking about men but women. He asked me if I was 'one of those women' -I asked him to explain. He said 'not all men are taking over types etc' I again said it wasn't about men. He has ghosted me. After talking to me every day for a few months -I haven't heard from him for a couple of weeks. No reason.

I went on a few dates with another. Thought he was really kind. One date he told me he was sick of this 'men blaming culture' he is NAMALT and I said that's the point. Actually it's in everything male entitlement and not realising the fear we have. He said 'Women only get attacked if they aren't careful' eg not wearing short skirts etc -totally missed the SE case -as NAMALT. He must have realised it was finished but no apology and not back in touch (don't worry it's a vomit from me)

I'm feeling such a depression. I've spent 12 years alone apart for a 2 year relationship and marriage. I then spent 4 years alone and dated again -he was a cheater and a liar. Again I found friends telling me 'it was me attracting the wrong sort -or being too trusting'. I have boundaries but have yet to find a man who doesn't just shrug and gets it -gets my fear. gets my independence, doesn't want to change me etc..... it's always my fault for not finding said one. I have a full life, but yes I'd like a companion. But I'm thinking it's not going to happen for me. I have good boundaries and good confidence and I'm bright and intelligent. I just want an equal who respects and understands the violence woman are currently facing.

Where are they?

C'mon OP - you've maybe got to look in the right places? There's a huge amount of pernicious mainstream and social media backlash to the modern agenda because young people are being more challenging than ever before, and it scares the old guard traditionalists that they seem so irreverent. They are calling out all the bullshit, and the older generation fall into the 'yes but' or the 'spot on' camps. I suspect the latter are in the minority- but not so small - there are thousands if not millions of men who would want to be allies (flawed, and not always as ideal as possible - but not like the arseholes you've described).
Maybe look to where they can be found - I'm not sure where because I'm not single and don't really hang out - but I'm sure I would if I were! Get chatting to people before dating - tease out their values and character.
It occurs to me also to maybe take heart that they might not be as forthcoming or as arrogant as traditionalist types, so you might need to be more forthcoming or more obvious than you are comfortable with? But I'm rambling now.

[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Choccy01

I said it tongue I cheek

Sure you did, buddy. 'Banter' strikes again, eh? It's ok, you make it clear what kind of bloke you are and it makes you easy to spot for those of us who don't want to associate with men who don't believe women are their equals.

So thanks for that at least, I guess.[/quote]
I can't devote any more energy to this.

I don't see you as equals as I dare to say something you don't agree with?Your posts are full of projection and defensiveness.

If you took this approach in real life you'd scare of most people before you started (tying in with the first post of the thread....)

@Choccy01

I think its polarisation. Driven by things like social media.

Decent men do understand/ empathise with women facing bad male behaviours. But it is wearing when you point out that men face bad behaviours as well and are met with, well it simply doesn't compare to what women face. As if that invalidates his experiences.

Sorry to say but the mere fact you’re comparing women’s experiences to men’s shows yoh DONT understand what women are going through and the big difference Whilst men might complain that the woman they let was fickle , drank too much or was unfaithful , women have all this to contend with and so much more Women’s treatment by men often leads to a life of poverty , single parenthood , sexual abuse , dv etc

@Choccy01

If you took this approach in real life you'd scare of most people before you started (tying in with the first post of the thread....)

Happily I'm with someone brilliant, thanks so it seems my approach is just fine thanks. I'm sorry yours isn't working, but hopefully you're willing to learn and grow over time so you can meet a woman you appreciate as an equal

Still not clear on what 'men's rights' you think are challenged by 'women's rights' so maybe get your thoughts clear on that before you speak to any real life women about feminism.

Good luck 🤞🏻

@Choccy01

So how about you tell everyone the stats on dv and assaults on women and who’s committing them .
Then you can tell us the stats on who is consuming the violent and illegal porn

Then let us know how many women are running top companies in the world compared to men

Then tell us again how much it’s changed

OP the complete works of Andrea Dworkin are available free. If you haven't read and you want to get your teeth into writing that is challenging, insightful and gets to fundamentals, the roots of our position in society etc.

I'll pm you the link.

And I admit I've only read extracts and so it's reminded me to read them myself!

If you want other recs there's a fair few threads over on feminism :)

@Choccy01

‘But two things, 1. do you challenge bad female behaviour 2. From my experience women aren't necessarily attracted to the good guys. They are attracted to a group of men which disproportionately then appear to represent the behaviours that are claimed to apply to all men.‘

So what are you doing Choccy to challenge men and Dv against women ?
What are you doing to challenge the men ( predominant posters of ) revenge porn?
What are you doing to combat the sexualisation of young girls by men ?
What are you doing to get your fellow men to contribute quality to childcare and housework ?

Looking forward to hearing about all this understanding you have of women’s issues and how you are combating the serious issues that women are facing .

Until you start recognising that women are facing issues that lead to their sexual abuse exploitation and death is incredibly more serious than men moaning about how women date then you need to think twice about claiming yo understand anything to do with gender inequalities

If you really think men’s issues with women are as serious as women’s with men then perhaps you can give us some examples of how men are being exploited , killed raped etc by women in the same numbers
Show the statistics for how women on mass are causing grievous bodily harm to men
I think you’ll find that when men are assaulted the primary aggressors are …. You guessed it … men!

@FaceForRadio1973

But I as a woman cannot for example safely challenge a group of blokes where one or two or more of them are saying sexist or misogynist things - because I don't know if I will then be at risk.

But do you genuinely believe that many men feel safe to challenge a group of random blokes?

People of both sexes are violently attacked just for asking a gang of scrotes to stop kicking down their fence. Similarly for road rage.

You're right though, we all need to challenge attitudes and behaviours of colleagues and friends - People who we feel safe with.

The trouble seems to be that the ones that are "safe", probably don't need all that challenging?

And who is commuting the violence ? MEN

I think one needs to be really careful about saying oh but men are scared too men are assaulted too.

Yes they are but it’s an issue of male behaviour and until men as a whole start challenging it and changing male culture it won’t change
Women are not responsible for changing male behaviour
Women have worked hard to set up support groups to advocate for our rights which we still fight for
Meanwhile men seem to sit back and claim’ not all men . I’m not like that ‘ not challenging this behaviour at all .
The average man climbing the ladder quicker than a better qualified women , using his various porn platforms regardless of what demeaning or illegal content they have with no care , letting his wife do the lions share of unpaid work whilst he can devote more time to himself or work
I know plenty of guys who do all these things and consider themselves good guys because ‘ hey I’m not beating a woman up ‘

Choccy how many men have had multiple experiences since aged 12/ 13 ish.

Where men who were twice their size. Maybe in a group. Said or did things that that had an underlying or overt sexual threat?

Where they were going about their day and a man or men twice their size said / shouted that they'd love to fuck them? Followed them a bit. Laughing. Nice body. I want you to sit on my cock. Or similar.

How many men when at secondary school. On the bus home have had a man twice their size put hand on thigh, on groin. Down trousers?

How many men since the age of 12 or so. Understand that this is normal. Expected. One of those things. Nothing to make a fuss about. That men twice their size will do this sort of thing. And worse.

?

Yes it happens. Not common though. And is most certainly not considered by anyone to be inevitable and just one of those things. Something to put down to experience, maybe laugh off, and a strong message that telling friends and friends saying what's happened to them from men twice their size is ok. But not necessary esp if more serious. And telling parents school etc is not the done thing. Your problem you need to deal with it.

Yes men and boys get sexually assaulted. And the feelings about it are very different to being in a fight etc. For a number of reasons. Often challenges their whole view of themselves, life, everything.

The fact that you feel the need, when women talk about men being awful. To them. Women. Awful or worse.

Do you talk about microaggressions? (Whether they are a thing or not is a separate issue). Why do you assume tiny, trivial? Automatically?

Why do you come into a thread on mumsnet, massively predominantly female posters. Onto a board that is not one of the main popular boards.

See an op with a woman talking about dating. Her experiences.. Other women chatting with her.

And think. Well this is definitely a good time to join the conversation to point out that women are essentially wrong about men, behave badly, get stroppy at men for no reason because they are all feminist, and really traditional roles are what is best.

Oh and. Women posting about bad shit that men have done. Then that is totally out of order as men have s really bad time too.

And if a woman is talking about bad shit men have done. It's natural for the man to say bad shit happens to men too. Why don't you care about that eh? And then she must explain herself.

In short. You are really showing yourself up! What are you hoping to achieve here?

This is really interesting and it seems to be a fairly common natural reaction when observations/ criticisms are made by the group who (generally) are the ones who get the shitty end of the stick, by the group who are members of the ones that don't generally get that kind of shit and contains those who dish it out.

I'm really interested in this dynamic as I just... Don't feel that way when the group being criticised is one I'm in.

So genuinely. Do you have any insights into why you automatically took observations / criticism of male behaviour (in general, namalt etc) by women as a personal affront?

I'd really love to know what you think as someone who's been there.

Also love to know what are these things men as a group are suffering at the hands of men that are even close to the systematic oppression of women , the sexual abuse and slavery of women in the sex trade , the dv etc all at the hands of men

It's not a competition. The things are different. And men and women generally can only really 'get' the things that apply to them.

I mean there's plenty of stuff that is shit for men and boys here and around the world. Here. Things like homophobia. Boys and young men living in areas where the chance of getting involved in gang violence is high. Knife crime. Most rough sleepers are male. Grooming and sexual abuse as children - sports clubs, church etc. Set on by drunk blokes. Etc.
Around the world. Eg Taliban strict rules about appearance beard length. Have to pray every call if late or don't go punishment not good. Fear for their female loved ones. Bad in a different way. Shit for women. But not a walk in the park for men.
Being abducted and trained as child soldiers. Taken and set to work as prostitutes, not as many as girls but happens.

It's not a competition.

On this thread though our poster standing up for men has different quibbles. His problem is women prioritising women. Not paying what he sees as the correct level of attention to men.
Women these days being demanding, stroppy, not giving men they meet the massive leeway and kindness etc they deserve. Taking offence at everything.

And also. Brace yourself. Talking to other women online about meeting men who are not their cup of tea. That's just appalling.

I would note that-

Men like that poster-
Only really care about men's rights when trying to shut women up when they are saying such terrible things.
Does he talk to men online about men's rights? Donate to or volunteer with men's charities? Write to his MP? Anything?
About the pressing issues for men. Health? MH? etc.
I'll let you decide what answer you would put money on! :)

Ffs choccy. I bet you also counter BLM with 'but white lives matter too' bollocks.

Like BLM, it doesn't mean that white lives don't matter or that all white people are racist. As a white person I support BLM and listen and am horrified and supportive.

OP- if you want to find men who aren't threatened and are supportive then look at environmental groups, activists, vegans etc. They are full of intelligent and empathetic people who look at life beyond their own little yard and experiences.

In my experience, I know some great men (including my boyfriend) and a couple of exes. But mostly, in work and in life they have been sexist.

No it’s not a competition but it seems like everytine women stand up and speak about issues with men , there are men on here wanting to turn it into one
It seems the only language they understand
And they need to have it pointed out to then that won’t are in a pretty bad position pretty often

Also note that they don’t come on here complaining about boy soldiers . They come on complaining about women not giving short men a chance , why women are not dating them or trying to derail any thread that is about women

There are good men but they are not claiming to understand women’s issues the going off about but hangon what about poor menz

As I get older I have come to a conclusion I never wanted to.

The vast vast majority don't give a fuck about women and girls. Except their relatives and friends.

And in fact. The vast vast majority don't give a fuck about other men and boys either.

Apart from ffj

Oops posted too soon.

Ffj. Who were about how awful women are...

When did you see men in a large number marching or making noise about knife crime? Or the situation in prisons and yoi for men and boys?

Outside parliament waving placards en masse about the large number of white boys doing so badly in school? About men's MH and suicide? Addiction and rough sleeping?

I've not seen that ever. It may have happened. I'm sure it's not common.

I think that sometimes there's an automatic defence mechanism, even if you're one of the good guys. I think it can feel as if you're being accused, even if that's not the case.

I think that's what happens with men sometimes, and why some have such a knee-jerk reaction. Women's rights is a red hot topic at the moment and there's a lot of anger being directed towards predatory and dangerous men, plus all the everyday sexism accusations. I think if you're generally a decent guy, it can feel like a bit of a bombardment and as if you're under attack when you're not doing anything wrong.

Of course, the reason why it's such a hot topic at the moment is because certain recent events have brought it under the spotlight, and things need to bloody well change. Unless we stamp our feet, and get people to listen nothing will change so we have no option but to constantly bang on about the issues.

This is potentially controversial but I'll say it anyway because I'm being honest. I believe in BLM, I believe passionately in BLM and I hate racism and discrimination. But sometimes I have to remind myself that sweeping statements about " awful white people" aren't aimed at me if I'm not engaging in those behaviours. It's very easy to get defensive when it feels as if you're being included in a swathe of accusations, because the comments aren't specific. Just because I don't do those things, it doesn't mean that other white people don't - and it doesn't mean the comments aren't valid. But sometimes I have to remind myself of that, and remind myself that I'm not personally being attacked. I think because I do believe so passionately in equality etc, I can feel an internal reaction of defensiveness when it seems as if I'm being included in the accusations on the basis of my skin colour so when I notice that happening, I have to remind myself to take a step back and actually look at what's really being said rather than just projecting my own thoughts.

I'm also really aware that I don't know what it's like to experience racism, or to be in the minority where everyone else in the room has a different skin colour. Likewise, I don't know what it's like to experience hate because I am holding hands with a partner of the same sex. And so on.

I try to be an ally in every way, I try to empathise and I try to understand but I know there will be things that I miss. Or things that I just haven't thought of because I'm not black or gay. I've not walked in those shoes so I completely understand that there will be actions, inequalities and difficulties that I've just failed to consider or notice.

And I think that's where some men are at. They notice all the big things, believe in being an ally and are horrified at the idea that they're being lumped in with the sexist, misogynistic arseholes. They get defensive because they can't take a step back and appreciate that when we say "men" of course we know that it's not ALL men. But many still don't realise the full extent to which women are affected.

I also think they miss the micro aggressions, or the privileges which are so automatic they're taken for granted. I think I said on a thread a little while ago that even I - as a woman - sometimes fail to appreciate just how different my actions and behaviours are from those of a man. A few weeks ago my DP decided to take the dog out for a walk at 11pm. He had a wander around the green park opposite our house. I'm a big, strong and confident woman - but no fucking chance would I do this. He mentioned in passing a group of men were sitting in the corner in the park. He wasn't fazed by it. It's times like this that it really brings it home to men how different it is to be a woman. And it's times like this that help my thoroughly lovely DP appreciate the many more subtle ways that women have to adapt their lives to stay safe.

I think a real awakening and revolution is currently going on. Even decent men are finding themselves shocked at just how different life is for women and I think some just cannot comprehend how different our experiences are without it being spelt out in detail each and every time. And of course, not all men want things to change and to some, equality feels like oppression to them because they've had things their own way for so long.

I do actually have some sympathy for men because if you are genuinely one of the good guys who champions women's rights and are receptive, honest and reflective it must feel pretty shitty to be lumped into the same category as rapists, sex offenders etc. But believe us when we say we KNOW that it's not all men but it's quite literally a matter of life and death so we have to assume the worst until we can be certain you're safe to trust. Before getting defensive ask yourself what women might be experiencing, what led to the anger, and why their experiences might be different to yours. The truth is so much more complex than many men can reasonably begin to comprehend so please just listen to what we have to say.

My instinct has always been optimism. Most men are fine. Nice. And I still think that.

BUT

the vast majority see that stuff as someone else's problem. Usually things like that are seen as something for women to sort out. I can give some examples from RL if you like!

And so many have resentment towards us. From a bit to hatred.

So many men I've liked at work seemed nice. Then they slipped up. Showed that actually yes. They did think women and girls were lesser in some way. Not proper full people like men. It always upsets me still. I should have learnt.

We have been banging on about our experiences and issues for decades. Longer. Always probably there have been women saying this is shit.

And each time something awful in the news. Why didn't women say something? We had no idea! Really? REALLY?

and in the end really they don't want to hear it, they don't want to know. Way easier not to. Otherwise they might have to think and it's not good and makes them feel bad and that's not fair is it. Stop taking about it!

Example.

Weinstein, metoo.
Work.
Went through this reaction in. Maybe 9 days? From the 'nice' men at my work.

Omg this is terrible? Why didn't we know? Why were we not told?

Hmmm. This is loads now. That can't be right. Can't be that prevalent. It's anonymous. There's going to be loads of exaggeration and lying.

Omg we can't even look at a woman now! (Will be accused of something).

The last was really odd. Quiet man. Nice bloke. Started convo about it. Then suddenly said that in a raised voice and stormed off!

So. They don't care. Don't want to hear it. Not interested not their problem.

I hate that at the age of nearly 50. And I like men you know, always had loads of friends of both sexes. I hate that is what I have learnt.

Spiders - I think you're still in optimism mode. And you know. That's great.

My view. There's no big change happening. Loads of appalling criminals in the past. Doing terrible things to women and girls. No change.

The only men I have ever come across who championed women I read about it the paper. The occasional story about a man elsewhere in the world doing something amazing.

Here? Can't think of any in public eye or that I've met. May have forgotten?

In general men as a group have fought us on everything. All over the world. And still do.

Um.

The vote.
Equal pay act.
Right to own property.
Right not to be property.
Right to have a bank account/ borrow money.
Right to work after marriage/ baby.

Rape in marriage was criminalised here in the early 90s FFS!

Overseas so much.
Right to not be married off while still a child.
Right to reproductive healthcare.
Right to go outside without a male relative.
Right to education.

Etc etc.

It's depressing but that's where we've always been.

Sit down Choccy, you're embarrassing yourself. Maybe try listening to what the women on here are telling you, you might learn something.

I can’t think of one man who stands up and fights for women to have equality , not one .
I can think of plenty of examples where men benefit from women being treated as less than men.

Moving on from the MRA bollocks upthread (thank you for your comments, random man)…

She cries because she didn't get to fall in love as all the men were killed in the war. Her generation was affected by that. Our generation is affected by this.

That's a very good way of putting it.

I remember chatting with someone on OLD who asked me what I thought was important in life. One of my answers was "Standing up for that in which I believe". His response was something along the lines of "So, you're quite strident then?" and then that was it. No more contact. At the time I was upset but Much Older Me knows I dodged a bullet. I've found that a lot of men might say all the right things and claim they want an independent partner, but when it comes to the reality of sharing parental duties, or contributing more to household chores or respecting a partner who has different opinions, the house of cards comes tumbling down.

I've been told that "No-one wants a feminist", that women do themselves a disservice by "being shrill" and I'm "too modern for most men".

Well, OK then. Thankfully I live in an era where I don't have to get married; I can be financially independent and not be shunned by the neighbours for the shame of being an unmarried woman. So I'll stay single rather than settle.