[quote youvegottenminuteslynn]@Choccy01
But two things, 1. do you challenge bad female behaviour 2. From my experience women aren't necessarily attracted to the good guys. They are attracted to a group of men which disproportionately then appear to represent the behaviours that are claimed to apply to all men.
Ah see you really aren't getting it.
Again you've brought the conversation back to female behaviour and females being culpable for male behaviour.
FWIW yes I do challenge males or females when they say something sexist, misogynist, racist etc if it is safe for me to do so eg I know them. But I as a woman cannot for example safely challenge a group of blokes where one or two or more of them are saying sexist or misogynist things - because I don't know if I will then be at risk.
That's why men need to stand up and speak out within their friendship groups or workplaces - because they need to challenge people they know when they say these things and can do so more safely than women AND being challenged or shunned by men they know is going to give them more cause to rethink their attitude than a woman they don't know like me walking up to them and challenging them. We get laughed at, told to lighten up, threatened and the perpetrators mates more often than not stand by silently. It's time for men to be more horrified by misogyny and sexism than they are by the idea of pissing off a sexist and misogynist mate.
And I don't like 'bad boys' and your comments on that are very nice guy syndrome with a blanket view that women are attracted to men who display the behaviour we are discussing, so we are to blame for those men's behaviour somehow.
In MY experience as a woman, most women are not more attracted to men who say sexist, misogynist, derogatory things. Most (the vast, vast majority) women would be turned off someone if they knew they had nicknamed a colleague 'the rapist'.
If you can state as you have done above when speaking about 'women' that 'they are attracted to a group of men' who display the negative behaviours we've discussed then I can only imagine you're either hanging out with the wrong people or you're misinterpreting anecdata - for example on MN there will always be way more women posting about arsehole men than nice men because why would someone start a thread about a relationship that has no issues and is loving and kind? That doesn't mean most women have chosen to be with arseholes.
And finally, please try to see that you've brought the conversation back entirely to female culpability. To women doing 'the wrong things' or not doing enough.
We are EXHAUSTED. We've tried so very hard to explain all of this for decades and have had responses with the behaviour you've displayed on this thread alone - dismissal, minimisation and consistent NAMALT or blaming women for male behaviour.
We are so tired. [/quote]
Maybe I don't get it from your perspective but you perhaps don't get it from mine either. I would argue it's more that I do get it and don't agree (and vice versa).
I can only speak for the workplaces I've been at and the type of behaviours you describe have long been put out to pasture. Not that people don't still hold those views but you simply can't display them as if.you did you wouldn't last 5 minutes.
I'm not blaming women for bad male behaviour. The thread was started by somebody stating they were struggling with dating as they were getting a hostile response to some of their views. My only real comment in that regard was that perhaps downplay it a bit (the views), just a suggestion mind.
I've seen behaviours of males and females. I've seen the good and bad. I'm much more astute when it comes to dating etc and perhaps much more successful than when I was younger as I've learnt from my experiences. I also think because I genuinely believe that you treat other people with respect, decency but not necessarily feel the need to agree with them. You can respect difference as long as you aren't too far apart.
My point is that many 'modern men' have learnt from their Dad / Grandad's generation and adapted behaviours accordingly. But are still told its your fault because of x,y and z. It's still not good enough. If I've understood correctly you are saying that things havent gone far enough and men have a lot more work to do. I'm saying that whilst that is true in certain regards in other regards it's the modern attitudes of women which is wrong and it's nothing to do with women being accountable for male behaviour. It's women being accountable for their own behaviour. That last bit is what men are wising up to (accountability). Whether you agree with that or what you make of it is entirely up to you. I'm just stating that's where a lot of male thinking is at for my generation and I've seen more than enough to know that to be true.