Unappreciative 15 year old DD

[Workinghardeveryday]

I have 3 kids, dd15 and ds10, dd10.

My eldest doesn’t lift a finger to help around the house, she will clean her room about once a week.

Leaves a trail of mess wherever she has been ie, after washing her hair bathroom covered in conditioner, bottles everywhere, conditioner on wall mirror etc. Mugs and plates left wherever she has been, doesn’t even take her plate away from the table after tea.

I am fed up of it. I am fed up of feeling like a maid with no thanks. I have tried and tried to get her to help and pull her weight and she doesn’t.

On top of the above she is so rude!!! No manners, doesn’t make an effort to be friendly if she is that way out which is most of the time. Looks at me like shit.

Yesterday she was having a bad day and txt me about it. I wanted to do something nice for her so made her Brownies which are her favourite. Made the mixture, went to get baking paper and all gone, same with tinfoil (she used it all for something and never said). Had to go to the shop with ds10 who was off school poorly.

Anyway, she came back from school and sat in garden with her bf. I asked them both if they would like a Brownie and I had made them for her to cheer her up. She bit into it and pulled a disgusted face, said they weren’t cooked and horrible. Bf didn’t try his because of that.

May I add I make these a lot and she loves them. They were definitely cooked absolutely fine.

I was so hurt. It was the final straw. She knew I would feel humiliated in front of her bf which I did. She made me feel stupid, she does it a lot. I even said to dp I feel bullied by her.

What do I do to make her nice?!! It’s not a teenager thing. She has always been like this.

I love her with all my heart but I just don’t think she is a nice person most of the time. She bully’s ds too which I am constantly talking to her about.

I am fed up with it all. Any advice?

Good job OP!

I'd remove hair straighteners too due to all the burn marks. Crazy to allow her to damage property.

Just a thought but, everytime she does something nasty you could social media shame her. She will soon clean up her act if she think her school friends will hear about her bs.

Well done OP.
Whatever you do, don’t get into a physical tussle over the phone. Stay calm and tell her that If she relinquishes it straight away you’ll ‘only’ keep it for 1 hr/1day ( whatever you feel is proportionate ) but that if she doesn’t give it to you straight away you will either ( depending on your circumstances ) ‘suspend’ the contract or remove it from her as soon as you get a chance and keep it for several times as long.
Keeping calm is so critical - some of her ‘reward’ for her bad behaviour is likely her being able to have the power to reduce you to a crying/shouting wreck. Take that away and keep calm. Easier said than done I know but once you’ve mastered it, I bet you’ll find it hugely empowering.
She’ll probably be a bit worse at first, testing you to see if you really mean business. But once she realises you mean it, she will start to settle down and even feel more secure because of the boundaries.
You’ll be great, I’m sure and one day the two of you will laugh about this period.

I agree with IvorALotOfHeadaches about bracing yourself for behaviour to worsen when you first stiffen your backbone; I've mentioned the expression "extinction burst" before on the "Stately Homes" thread - in the context of a manipulative old lady! More commonly, it's used in the context of toddler tantrums; they "up the ante" to see if the boundary setter really means business! They have, from their point of view, a set-up which works for them, and don't relinquish the status quo without a struggle.
It's rather like the irritation and disbelief when an electrical gadget lets you down; have you caught yourself irrationally, angrily stabbing the "on" button repeatedly, harder and harder, when said gadget stops working?
I remember taking on an out-of-control class once whose initial reaction to order being restored was furious disbelief, followed by every antic in their repertoire to force me into retreat. By half-term, I was beginning to wonder if I'd ever get there, but oddly, after the half-term break, as I girded myself for more of the same, they suddenly capitulated!
They never were an easy-going lot, and they needed a firm hand for the rest of the year, and I don't suppose your daughter will transform overnight either, but you can win through if you hold your ground. She's not daft; she doesn't give your DP the same grief she gives you, so you know she can rein herself in when needs must.
Perversely, she may actually find reasonable boundaries, calmly enforced, give her security.......once you're through the choppy waters!
Good luck!

Well what a difference today!!! I have been really nice but much more forthright. I think she knows she sort of overstepped the line with the brownies. It was just plain mean and she understands this.

She has been polite and not rude at all. Hasn’t spoken to me in a disrespectful manner. Long may it last!!

I am ready for the rudeness though and I will stay calm and punish accordingly.

She washes her hair every other night. She will be doing it tonight, if she leaves a mess phone will be gone until it is ALL cleaned up!

What a fantastic update! Great that she's worked out for herself that she overstepped the mark - it shows, at least, that there is a mark that can be overstepped.
But don't drop your guard!

@twoshedsjackson thank you 😁. Don’t worry, I am ready for her this time!! 😁

This is very common in most of our lives. My son 16Y, is very clean almost OCD with his room and polite with me. However nothing else! I have MS & have to do absolutely everything around the house. He doesn't even empty the bin ( his only chore). I am angry & fed up of being a maid too. It is our own fault to bring up children with no appreciation or concept for responsibility. If we don't teach them, the trend continues in their life. My husband is the example of man staying in big baby mode even though he is 50y. He doesn't care about cleaning /shopping/cooking or working to provide for that matter. I do not want that for my son, dependent on a woman to serve him for the rest of his life

@Workinghardeveryday

Well what a difference today!!! I have been really nice but much more forthright. I think she knows she sort of overstepped the line with the brownies. It was just plain mean and she understands this.

She has been polite and not rude at all. Hasn’t spoken to me in a disrespectful manner. Long may it last!!

I am ready for the rudeness though and I will stay calm and punish accordingly.

She washes her hair every other night. She will be doing it tonight, if she leaves a mess phone will be gone until it is ALL cleaned up!

I am going to be harder - bathroom covered in conditioner (literally takes well over an hour to clean it up) she will do it.

Re the conditioner, how the fuck does she make that much mess with it?! Sounds like it's almost on purpose if it's that extreme, to do enough damage to take an hours worth of clean up is hard to do I would have thought?!

Glad today has been better OP. As some others have said, some of the behaviour (like laughing at disabled people / enjoying making you feel shit about how you look) is IMO well outside the realms of normal cheekiness or behaviour pushing and into the realm of a bully. So you'll be doing her and all those she comes into contact with a favour if you can try it get her more under control ASAP.

Great to hear you sounding more confident with it, keep going!

Still baffled by the conditioner and as I say would be thinking she must be doing it on purpose to make that much mess. I certainly wouldn't be replacing it if she's doing that either.

Umm, maybe just don’t give her access to conditioner if she can’t be responsible about it. ? Save the phone sanction for the ‘active’ nastiness rather than the laziness. Would you let a 3 year old be in charge of conditioner? No. They have to be mature enough to use it sensibly. Same goes for your DD.

I hope for your sake you follow through on this, OP. I’m horrified reading about her sheer nastiness and total lack of consideration. She certainly wouldn’t be allowed straighteners or her phone or to have the bf round for at least a week.

Be absolutely consistent and get your dh on board, no favours, no treats, no nothing. I understand the whole teenager thing, I really do, but this is over the top horrible behaviour. She is walking all over you and you haven’t sanctioned her so of course she’ll carry on until you put some extremely strong boundaries in place.

15 and developing brain or whatever, I don’t think I know any child of that age who appears to be so lacking in empathy. Good luck, you can salvage this, but be strong!

laughing at me when I have made an effort with my appearance. Commenting on my hair not being right etc

I always came back at them with ‘aren’t you a love?* and move on I wasn’t going to get upset over a 15 year olds comments on makeup!

I also think, what if another person spoke to you like this? What would you do?

I always said NO to the next three things they asked for - lift - no party - no new dress - no

I wouldn’t ignored a request from anyone else who was rude, so it’s a natural consequence.

I am assuming you also pay for the conditioner? That would stop if the bathroom is a wreck.

Still going strong!!

She is being more pleasant 😁.

The conditioner - she uses far too much and clearly couldn’t care what mess she made. No care while she is using it!!

And do you pay for her phone? I tend to hit mine where it hurts, often by switching the Wi-Fi off. Life is about give and take, I won't be taken for a ride nor will I be disrespected.

Hope things are still going well OP!

There's a bit of a personal element to this, where you are taking everything personal against you. It's like you are desperate to be her friend rather than her mother.

As a teenager, it's normal to want to separate from your parents, especially your mother. You seem to keep trying to befriend her and get her to 'like' you by pandering to her moods, making her brownies -even dragging the sick kid to go get tinfoil??

Your attempts to get or to stay emotionally close to her are pushing her away.
You keep trying to enmesh, this causes her to have to really up the 'Separation Wall' to show you you are different to her. She has to keep finding some way to fight off your control of her.

Thus you get the stuff when you say I love pepperoni, she will say I hate pepperoni'. Part of it is her trying to claw you off her to be blunt.

When you detect her pushing you away, you meet that by finding things to tell her to do as a way to 'make contact' with her.
She doesn't come home and tell you all the stuff going on in her life, so you go to her room and tell her to bring the plate down.

If you strengthen your boundaries she will actually feel safer.
So have 'rules' about the bathroom and police these with a neutral but persistent attitude. Persistence will pay off. Yes, teenagers do have to be asked every time literally for months sometimes before they start doing these things automatically.

Be pleasant but neutral. Watch the script you use with her - notice if you are saying things like 'you don't care about me!!' etc. The personal things...

It's not her job to be your friend.
It's like a part of your thinks your daughter is a friend of yours the same age as you and you have to get the 'mean girl' to really like you.

When you are struggling do this:
Notice the part of you that is desperately hung up on monitoring your daughter's moods. That you jump to soothe her feelings and doing Dobby the house Elf stuff to make her 'like' you.
Just notice that, then let that go. Next stop and fix a vision of her in your mind - of her as her 'best self' - not in terms of achievements, but as the beautiful human being you know she is underneath. Then - respond and relate to that image instead of the troubled teen you see before you. This might just help you stop reacting and stop your mind going to the 'oh it's all such a disaster she hates me boo hoo' and being so triggered.

Taking the phone is going to backfire on you. Get her to do the things without taking her phone. Taking the phone is meeting it with another childish immature 'reaction'. It's like you don't trust her to carry out the task you will just randomly grab the phone and she'll never know when to expect that.
This isn't about asserting your authority, it's about teaching her to become an adult.
Look carefully at your own dynamics in this. The two of you are doing a dance and you are 50% of that dance.
Your daughter doesn't hate you. You can keep pretending that to yourself if you want, it it helps you to jump into the victim role and go 'poor me everything is a disaster'. But it's not true.
It's extremely likely that you are the most important person in her life. She's at a difficult age. This too will pass.

To be honest OP you sound very needy for her love (I say it because I recognise myself, I have a 4yo whose behaviour I am struggling with right now and so much of it I know is because I want her to "love me enough" to behave better for me - which is so dysfunctional!)

As with me I feel this boils down to a fundamental lack of self esteem and consequent need for affirmation/fragility. Fo eg you feel "humiliated" by her Infront of her boyfriend - what on earth do you care for some spotty Herbert's opinion of your baking?? She makes fun of your attempts to look nice - this is someone who can't even use a pair of straighteners without burning the floor!! She is, frankly, a bit of an idiot (as all teens tend to be). You are an adult woman! Her approval is not important!!

It's rubbish trying to parent when your own sense of self is a bit shaky. It's so hard not to lean on our children for affirmation of our worth and our identity. Discipline is so hard when we have that unmet need to be loved.

But we absolutely have to fake it til we make it. Nothing is more destabilising or scary for kids than realising their parents are not in control. And perversity means that to reassure themselves we are, they push the boundaries any way they can. She has spotted your emotional weakness and is hitting it hard to see if you will break. Show her you won't, that you're strong, that you're safe, that you can protect her.

I am going to try and get some CBT sessions to help me with my emotional responses to my DD. I think it might help you too. Also Philippa Perry's book on parenting is really really good and worth a read.

It sounds like you are trying too hard to please her making brownies etc. - it’s rewarding bad behaviour. I think i would bag up all the crap she leaves around the house and put it in her room. I would calmly tell her the way she speaks to people is horrible and walk away. I would also give her a list of jobs and say she can have her pocket money once she has cleaned up after herself. I would also give positive praise for any achievements and if she is nice be warm with her. I would also get in early with your 10 year olds with chores etc to make sure you are not having years of hell with them too. Good luck! X

My DS 15 can be like this and he's slightly on the spectrum. He's improved slightly though and is coming through the other side of the worst of it. He was awful for a while and I've started getting hugs again which is nice. He did have to be gently told repeatedly how people are expected to behave. He does try now even though he has to think about it and act it out.

DD 14 although her room is a pit at times is naturally kind and loving and so easy to get along with. She has her grumpy moments but I pull her up on it and she responds positively. She doesn't have the cold nastiness DS can display

“My dd looked up BPD ( borderline personality disorder) recently and decided it described her. She has had a CAMHS worker for a few years (though dd generally refuses to see her these days) and I mentioned BPD to her on dd's behalf - she was dismissive and said she doubted it would be a useful diagnosis to get anyway.”

Many, many teens would present with a lot of the criteria for BPD, that’s why they don’t diagnose it until later, and are leaning more towards not diagnosing it at all these days as like the CAMHS worker said.

OP it’s unlikely your daughter has NPD, Mumsnet is obsessed with NPD but I work in mental health and it’s actually quite rare as a diagnosis.

She sounds rather immature for her age and maybe has a bit of a cruel streak but this often come from low self esteem/insecurity. Keep going with the tougher approach and calling her out when she’s out of order.

I expect she’ll look back and cringe at her 15 year old self one day, like a lot of us do!

Who pays for the conditioner? If she bought it with her own woney it wouldd stay in the bottle instead of all over the place

Are you being a 'Disney Dad'. Guilt from your first marriage failing making you afraid to discipline her?

I believe that a lack of boundaries makes a child anxious, the opposite of what the non-disciplining parent thinks will happen.

How's Operation Conditioner going @Workinghardeveryday?!

Thank you all for all of your advice. Really helpful snd makes a lot of sense.

Every night after bath she has cleaned the bath without being asked too!!!! I haven’t had to remind her once!!!

Her attitude has been better, was much better then sort of trailed back to rude. I called her out on it nicely last night and she apologised. No big sorry, just a sort of moody ‘sorry’ and has been slightly better. She has got a lot Guine herself at the minute that would upset her so trying to be sensitive to that without being a doormat.

The twins do help a lot for me, for example tonight they hung the washing upstairs when it was done, dd15 would never do that. I have learned from my mistakes with dd15 so for about 6 months ask the twins to help - clearing table after tea, I make sandwiches for lunch but up to them to get pack lunch box out, and refill with everything else. It is easier with them, they have grown up watching me run around after everyone and they know it is not acceptable for dd15 to behave the way she does.